What Matters More-- My Loan Balance or My Sanity? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I couldn't think of a snappy title, but here's the situation: I'm currently at a Biglaw firm and the "always on call" aspect/constant flood of emails is driving me insane. Possibly literally, as I've had to start counseling and get on meds since beginning this job. (There's also the fact that my office is FREEZING and I can't control the temperature, which affects me WAY more than it should because it makes it so unpleasant to be there.)

Before I started at this firm I was a contract associate (with a view to eventual permanence) at a different, not-Biglaw firm. I now regret leaving there-- the work was similar in nature, but the expectations were a lot more mentally healthy for me, and the people were excellent to work with.

It may become possible for me to transition back to the smaller firm on a permanent basis in the future. This would necessarily result in a fairly significant pay cut (likely slightly more than 1/3), although I'll still be able to support myself just fine.

If I stay where I am I could have my student loans paid off in two to three years (if I'm disciplined). That would not be possible at the smaller firm-- I would be able to make my payments, but I'd still be mostly in it for the repayment long haul. That's the biggest stumbling block for me when thinking this over, and I need to know what I'm going to do before this all goes too far.

I'm really just looking for advice or ideas here, because all of my career moves thus far have been pretty stupid and I've determined I can't be trusted.

[Anonymous User]

First off, go easy on yourself. It won't help to be judgmental or say you made stupid decisions, etc. Your reason for doing biglaw (paying off your loans quickly) is pretty rational and logical, at least in a vacuum, and it's the reason many people do biglaw.

The answer to your question, in my opinion anyway, is that your sanity matters more, full stop. I had this exact same dilemma. I hated biglaw. It made me miserable every single day. But I also had debt. I left biglaw for a law-adjacent job that gives me infinite more control over my own schedule/life, where I actually enjoy the work I'm doing. Unsurprisingly, I'm far happier. I also feel better physically, sleep better, etc. As for the loan balance (mine was quite large when I left my firm) I decided to stop obsessing over it and live with it instead. I'm just paying off the loans slower than I would have had I stayed. It's just another monthly bill for me.

I would really recommend leaving, and I wish you luck whatever you decide.

[CanadianWolf]

The poster asked: "What Matters More--My Loan Balance or My Sanity ?"

Unfortunately, the two are not entirely unrelated. If you leave biglaw now, you will still have to deal with the psychological & financial stress of a large student loan debt.

Since biglaw stress has driven you into therapy & you are taking medication for stress, but you still seem a bit on the edge, it may help to work out a long-term repayment plan in the event that you can get less stressful employment. Seeing the actual numbers may help you to accept that a long-term repayment plan is doable.

[papermateflair]

Your mental health matters more than your loan balance, so do what you need to do. No job is worth it.

One thing to consider is whether you can lateral to another big law firm that will let you work remotely - and if you can get a signing bonus and throw a chunk of it onto your loans, that could help improve things. As a fellow person who hates cold offices, that alone should be enough justification to make a change

Alternatively, if you want to stick it out at your current firm for a couple of years, be ready to set some hard boundaries and see if how they respond. The firm will eventually give you the talk and 3-6 months to find a new job (while being paid your big law salary) if you perform poorly enough. That could get you halfway to paying off your loans. If you don't plan to stay at the firm, then you don't need to be an A employee - being a B- employee is fine for now.

[12YrsAnAssociate]

Are you pretty new at your current firm? One thing to consider doing is to forcing yourself to put your phone away and stop answering emails after a certain time. If you're already considering leaving, it might be worth seeing if you're putting unneeded pressure on yourself to finish work as soon as you receive an email until the next day when the work day begins. Maybe your boss freaks out and it turns out that being on 24-7 is the expectation. But are you any worse off for trying? Setting some barriers has made biglaw much more manageable for me, though I still hate it.

[Anonymous User]

Are you pretty new at your current firm? One thing to consider doing is to forcing yourself to put your phone away and stop answering emails after a certain time. If you're already considering leaving, it might be worth seeing if you're putting unneeded pressure on yourself to finish work as soon as you receive an email until the next day when the work day begins. Maybe your boss freaks out and it turns out that being on 24-7 is the expectation. But are you any worse off for trying? Setting some barriers has made biglaw much more manageable for me, though I still hate it.

I am pretty new at the firm, but I think I do okay with this-- at least, I get my full allotment of sleep MOST nights because I turn off my email alert sound.

Honestly, the hours and the unpredictability of work are the worst things for me. I can't even plan a trip to buy groceries without expecting, and getting, an "urgent" call or email. They're VERY serious about their 2000 hours, and they have no issue emailing at all hours of the night and/or weekend. I really didn't know what this would be like until I was living it, and now I wish I didn't know.

[Anonymous User]

Your mental health matters more than your loan balance, so do what you need to do. No job is worth it.

One thing to consider is whether you can lateral to another big law firm that will let you work remotely - and if you can get a signing bonus and throw a chunk of it onto your loans, that could help improve things. As a fellow person who hates cold offices, that alone should be enough justification to make a change

Alternatively, if you want to stick it out at your current firm for a couple of years, be ready to set some hard boundaries and see if how they respond. The firm will eventually give you the talk and 3-6 months to find a new job (while being paid your big law salary) if you perform poorly enough. That could get you halfway to paying off your loans. If you don't plan to stay at the firm, then you don't need to be an A employee - being a B- employee is fine for now.

There aren't too many remote-work opportunities in my market, unfortunately. We're still "allowed" to work from home, but I did today (first time since we went "back," others have done it more) and my department head was irritated about it, even though I had no real reason to be in-office.

Going from one Biglaw to another just seems like it wouldn't help, because the hours would be the same and likely the "on call" expectations would be, too.

Maybe I'm naive for thinking this other firm would be a better fit for me. I don't want to burn that bridge by not moving if they DO come through with some kind of offer, although they're still running numbers and such right now. Also, some weird masochistic part of me is a money-grubbing goblin who thinks I should stay here and suffer, and tries to convince me it isn't THAT bad, although I try to tune it out.

It's like I said before. I make bad career decisions and then I regret them. I feel very lost and confused, and no one in my life understands.

[Anonymous User]

The poster asked: "What Matters More--My Loan Balance or My Sanity ?"

Unfortunately, the two are not entirely unrelated. If you leave biglaw now, you will still have to deal with the psychological & financial stress of a large student loan debt.

Since biglaw stress has driven you into therapy & you are taking medication for stress, but you still seem a bit on the edge, it may help to work out a long-term repayment plan in the event that you can get less stressful employment. Seeing the actual numbers may help you to accept that a long-term repayment plan is doable.

I know that I'll probably never pay the loans OFF with what I'd make at this other firm, and me-in-20-years will be looking at a hefty tax consequence. I'm not so afraid of that. It's more the realization that if I make a move, I won't be debt-free for a very long time, you know? It's hard for me to think about.

[2013]

OP, is the salary at prior firm 1/3 for a contract role or an associate role?

[Anonymous User]

OP, is the salary at prior firm 1/3 for a contract role or an associate role?

The salary is a 1/3 pay cut. I'd be making about 2/3 of what I make now, and it would be as an associate.

So, if I were making $120k now, this job would pay $80k. These aren't the real numbers, but I hope that helps.

[CanadianWolf]

The poster asked: "What Matters More--My Loan Balance or My Sanity ?"

Unfortunately, the two are not entirely unrelated. If you leave biglaw now, you will still have to deal with the psychological & financial stress of a large student loan debt.

Since biglaw stress has driven you into therapy & you are taking medication for stress, but you still seem a bit on the edge, it may help to work out a long-term repayment plan in the event that you can get less stressful employment. Seeing the actual numbers may help you to accept that a long-term repayment plan is doable.

I know that I'll probably never pay the loans OFF with what I'd make at this other firm, and me-in-20-years will be looking at a hefty tax consequence. I'm not so afraid of that. It's more the realization that if I make a move, I won't be debt-free for a very long time, you know? It's hard for me to think about.

It may be helpful if you & your therapist/counselor approached your long term student debt in the same manner as if you were being treated for cancer. How do individuals handle dealing with a long term illness ?

You can't continue beating yourself up & being your own worst enemy. There are some things that individuals need to learn to live with without allowing that negative to control one's life.

You have two chances to cure your illness; one is to stay in biglaw for two or three years and the other is to pay for 20 years. I wonder how one facing possible terminal cancer would feel if given the same two options.

[jc9812]

Speaking as someone who is (luckily) physically healthy but has a lot of student loans, comparing student loans to terminal cancer strikes me as melodramatic at best. I would choose my debt without a second of hesitation.

Not to say that there are no psychological effects of large debt burdens, or that living with significant debt is easy, but the analogy seems a bit extreme.

[CanadianWolf]

Speaking as someone who is (luckily) physically healthy but has a lot of student loans, comparing student loans to terminal cancer strikes me as melodramatic at best. I would choose my debt without a second of hesitation.

Not to say that there are no psychological effects of large debt burdens, or that living with significant debt is easy, but the analogy seems a bit extreme.

I think that you missed the point of my post.

[nixy]

Maybe it needs to be clearer because I had the same reaction.

[CanadianWolf]

The point is that student loan debt is not cancer.

Student loan debt has cures.

(There is a bit more, but it is intended for OP & OP's therapist. I would have preferred to PM/DM OP, but that cannot be done with an anonymous poster.)

[Anonymous User]

The point is that student loan debt is not cancer.

Student loan debt has cures.

(There is a bit more, but it is intended for OP & OP's therapist. I would have preferred to PM/DM OP, but that cannot be done with an anonymous poster.)

OP here, I'm anon because this plus my profile could out me. I realize that student loan debt has a cure (more than one method, although the cure is always money), I'm just trying to justify going from money that would help me pay it off quickly to money that would permit payments, but not repayment.

My mental health is the complicating factor here, and I feel like I don't have the perspective to see what's actually important here, because again, all the career choices I've made thus far have been bad.

I would really like to go on mental health leave and take time to think and recover, but my firm requires notice for leave, and I don't feel like I could sit here during my notice period while people try to guess what's wrong with me.

[CanadianWolf]

Please understand that everyone is on your side.

Student loan debt is a huge burden. Thousands of young lawyers are dealing with the same issues that you are.

It's a matter of perspective. Few have the opportunity to make the type of money that you are making in biglaw. Hopefully, you can find a therapist who is able to help you view your daily work functions & obligations in a healthy fashion.

I know that this isn't the answer that you are looking for. At least you have options.

P.S. If you think that having too much work is a burden, be thankful that you are not in a situation without enough work. Focus on positives.

In answer to your question: Your sanity is more important. How you handle the mental health aspect is between you & your therapist/medical providers. Everyone is on your side.

[sparty99]

I couldn't think of a snappy title, but here's the situation: I'm currently at a Biglaw firm and the "always on call" aspect/constant flood of emails is driving me insane. Possibly literally, as I've had to start counseling and get on meds since beginning this job. (There's also the fact that my office is FREEZING and I can't control the temperature, which affects me WAY more than it should because it makes it so unpleasant to be there.)

Before I started at this firm I was a contract associate (with a view to eventual permanence) at a different, not-Biglaw firm. I now regret leaving there-- the work was similar in nature, but the expectations were a lot more mentally healthy for me, and the people were excellent to work with.

It may become possible for me to transition back to the smaller firm on a permanent basis in the future. This would necessarily result in a fairly significant pay cut (likely slightly more than 1/3), although I'll still be able to support myself just fine.

If I stay where I am I could have my student loans paid off in two to three years (if I'm disciplined). That would not be possible at the smaller firm-- I would be able to make my payments, but I'd still be mostly in it for the repayment long haul. That's the biggest stumbling block for me when thinking this over, and I need to know what I'm going to do before this all goes too far.

I'm really just looking for advice or ideas here, because all of my career moves thus far have been pretty stupid and I've determined I can't be trusted.

You should stay until the debt is abolished or at least $25,000. It makes no sense to leave now. You can do anything in a year. And after a year, leave and do another big law firm. Maybe get a sign on bonus. Do a month vacation before you start. Either way, it is another year at the second big law firm and you are debt free. You need to think long term. You chose this route and saddled yourself with debt. Big law is your ticket out. You can't afford to quit now. You have six figures in debt.

[JusticeChuckleNutz]

I couldn't think of a snappy title, but here's the situation: I'm currently at a Biglaw firm and the "always on call" aspect/constant flood of emails is driving me insane. Possibly literally, as I've had to start counseling and get on meds since beginning this job. (There's also the fact that my office is FREEZING and I can't control the temperature, which affects me WAY more than it should because it makes it so unpleasant to be there.)

Before I started at this firm I was a contract associate (with a view to eventual permanence) at a different, not-Biglaw firm. I now regret leaving there-- the work was similar in nature, but the expectations were a lot more mentally healthy for me, and the people were excellent to work with.

It may become possible for me to transition back to the smaller firm on a permanent basis in the future. This would necessarily result in a fairly significant pay cut (likely slightly more than 1/3), although I'll still be able to support myself just fine.

If I stay where I am I could have my student loans paid off in two to three years (if I'm disciplined). That would not be possible at the smaller firm-- I would be able to make my payments, but I'd still be mostly in it for the repayment long haul. That's the biggest stumbling block for me when thinking this over, and I need to know what I'm going to do before this all goes too far.

I'm really just looking for advice or ideas here, because all of my career moves thus far have been pretty stupid and I've determined I can't be trusted.

You should stay until the debt is abolished or at least $25,000. It makes no sense to leave now. You can do anything in a year. And after a year, leave and do another big law firm. Maybe get a sign on bonus. Do a month vacation before you start. Either way, it is another year at the second big law firm and you are debt free. You need to think long term. You chose this route and saddled yourself with debt. Big law is your ticket out. You can't afford to quit now. You have six figures in debt.

OP literally just said that they have had to start counseling and get on meds since beginning this job. There are more important things at stake than paying down to debt and being debt free. Beyond silly for you to tell them to tough it out, and even join another biglaw firm (which is the environment causing issues). C'mon man...

[sparty99]

I couldn't think of a snappy title, but here's the situation: I'm currently at a Biglaw firm and the "always on call" aspect/constant flood of emails is driving me insane. Possibly literally, as I've had to start counseling and get on meds since beginning this job. (There's also the fact that my office is FREEZING and I can't control the temperature, which affects me WAY more than it should because it makes it so unpleasant to be there.)

Before I started at this firm I was a contract associate (with a view to eventual permanence) at a different, not-Biglaw firm. I now regret leaving there-- the work was similar in nature, but the expectations were a lot more mentally healthy for me, and the people were excellent to work with.

It may become possible for me to transition back to the smaller firm on a permanent basis in the future. This would necessarily result in a fairly significant pay cut (likely slightly more than 1/3), although I'll still be able to support myself just fine.

If I stay where I am I could have my student loans paid off in two to three years (if I'm disciplined). That would not be possible at the smaller firm-- I would be able to make my payments, but I'd still be mostly in it for the repayment long haul. That's the biggest stumbling block for me when thinking this over, and I need to know what I'm going to do before this all goes too far.

I'm really just looking for advice or ideas here, because all of my career moves thus far have been pretty stupid and I've determined I can't be trusted.

You should stay until the debt is abolished or at least $25,000. It makes no sense to leave now. You can do anything in a year. And after a year, leave and do another big law firm. Maybe get a sign on bonus. Do a month vacation before you start. Either way, it is another year at the second big law firm and you are debt free. You need to think long term. You chose this route and saddled yourself with debt. Big law is your ticket out. You can't afford to quit now. You have six figures in debt.

OP literally just said that they have had to start counseling and get on meds since beginning this job. There are more important things at stake than paying down to debt and being debt free. Beyond silly for you to tell them to tough it out, and even join another biglaw firm (which is the environment causing issues). C'mon man...

I don't believe I asked for your opinion. His student loans don't care that he is on medication or going to therapy. And I never said he should tough it out. I said he should not quit until his debt is gone or $25,000. He can be debt free in 2 years or 7 to 10. Mmm. The decision is easy.

[nixy]

sparty, you don't get to post here and then just tell others that you didn't ask for their opinion on your posts. That's not how public posting works.

Also, I'd way rather pay off debt in 7-10 years and be healthy during that time, than jeopardize my mental health for 2. Like I get that you disagree, but it's still a subjective decision.

[Dahl]

OP can you move to the public sector and apply for the forgiveness program? I think you had to not have refinanced yet. Massive pay cut but eventually you make a decent salary and the loans would be forgiven in ten year.

Also buy a space heater! Don’t sit in a frigid environment. You can get some low energy ones if you’re worried about blowing a fuse.

[sparty99]

OP can you move to the public sector and apply for the forgiveness program? I think you had to not have refinanced yet. Massive pay cut but eventually you make a decent salary and the loans would be forgiven in ten year.

Also buy a space heater! Don’t sit in a frigid environment. You can get some low energy ones if you’re worried about blowing a fuse.

Yeah you can be forced to work for an employer for 10 years with the hopes of having it forgiven or you can just get it done in 2 years by doing big law.

[JusticeChuckleNutz]

OP can you move to the public sector and apply for the forgiveness program? I think you had to not have refinanced yet. Massive pay cut but eventually you make a decent salary and the loans would be forgiven in ten year.

Also buy a space heater! Don’t sit in a frigid environment. You can get some low energy ones if you’re worried about blowing a fuse.

Yeah you can be forced to work for an employer for 10 years with the hopes of having it forgiven or you can just get it done in 2 years by doing big law.

People come here to get a variety of perspectives. We get it--You think you have the best solution. It is not helpful to OP for you to just shit on other posters trying to offer helpful solutions because they differ from your own opinion.

[sparty99]

OP can you move to the public sector and apply for the forgiveness program? I think you had to not have refinanced yet. Massive pay cut but eventually you make a decent salary and the loans would be forgiven in ten year.

Also buy a space heater! Don’t sit in a frigid environment. You can get some low energy ones if you’re worried about blowing a fuse.

Yeah you can be forced to work for an employer for 10 years with the hopes of having it forgiven or you can just get it done in 2 years by doing big law.

People come here to get a variety of perspectives. We get it--You think you have the best solution. It is not helpful to OP for you to just shit on other posters trying to offer helpful solutions because they differ from your own opinion.

I was not talking to you.