Vacation Pushback Forum

[Anonymous User]

I’m a mid level who has great reviews and has worked with a small number of partners. People have been quitting left and right in my group and different partners keep piling on the work.

I booked a vacation for this summer and gave notice a while ago to people I work with. A few of the new partners have dropped subtle hints about that not working with their projects. I’ve framed the vacation as something that’s happening instead of asking for permission.

What’s the worse that would happen if I stand my ground and just go? The trip is semi off the grid, and I haven’t taken a vacation in the last two years. I’m 95% sure I don’t want to be partner. Even if they’re that upset by me going, I can’t picture them actually doing much when the group is so underwater as is.

[LittleRedCorvette]

I’m a mid level who has great reviews and has worked with a small number of partners. People have been quitting left and right in my group and different partners keep piling on the work.

I booked a vacation for this summer and gave notice a while ago to people I work with. A few of the new partners have dropped subtle hints about that not working with their projects. I’ve framed the vacation as something that’s happening instead of asking for permission.

What’s the worse that would happen if I stand my ground and just go? The trip is semi off the grid, and I haven’t taken a vacation in the last two years. I’m 95% sure I don’t want to be partner. Even if they’re that upset by me going, I can’t picture them actually doing much when the group is so underwater as is.

You send a follow up a couple weeks out saying you will be off the grid for your vacation, then another the week before you leave. Then you go off the grid for your entire vacation and they can all 100% fuck off. Nothing will happen at all.

[Anonymous User]

Agree with poster above. You reiterate the notice and make sure to notify them that you will be without phone or internet service so that there’s no expectation of work. You have great reviews and your direct partners, the ones that matter most, have cleared it so nothing bad can really happen. Plus the pressure is on THEM to retain you. Despite what the hierarchy tells you or feels like.

If you have a close enough relationship with one of your other partners, you could tell them and maybe they’d stand up for you with the newer ones. BUT the risk there is if your mentor partner tells you to cancel and stay (for selfish reasons of course), then you’ll burn yourself if you go. I wouldn’t open any door or invite anyone to give you their input or opinion about it. Like you said, it’s not asking it’s telling them about the vacation. You deserve it. Enjoy it.

[thisismytlsuername]

The worst that can happen is they ignore that you're on vacation and semi-off the grid and give you a bunch of work do ("Sorry, but we really appreciate you pitching in while you're on your trip"), and being a hard-working, responsible associate you do the work anyway.

[Anonymous User]

A few of the new partners have dropped subtle hints about that not working with their projects.

Curious what you mean by this specifically. A partner in my office is notorious for subtly pushing against vacations, waiting to see if the associate volunteers to do some work while they’re gone. If so, the partner gives them work. If not, nothing bad happens to the associate at all. It could be this kind of psychopathic-in-the-biglaw-way boundary testing. Don’t give in to it.

[jotarokujo]

The worst that can happen is they ignore that you're on vacation and semi-off the grid and give you a bunch of work do ("Sorry, but we really appreciate you pitching in while you're on your trip"), and being a hard-working, responsible associate you do the work anyway.

pretty much this. if they give you work during the vacation, you are under no obligation to do it. it feels bad, but you just have to go ignore the work because vacation is part of your comp. partners are fully prepared for you to not do the work, that doens't mean they won't try though

[Anonymous User]

I agree with the posters above, however, this is a different story if you have taken several days off in the last two years. Have you taken Fridays off frequently? Multiple personal days? I have heard associates claim to have not taken a vacation in a long time, yet they take a day off or two every month. While I personally think you SHOULD be able to take a vacation even if you take days off during a month, not all partners will see it that way.

[Anonymous User]

This is the benefit of billing hours. If you are hitting your hours, take a vacation. If you are not, probably still take a vacation but I can see why partners may be curious.

[Anonymous User]

Decide whether or not you’re willing to do work for the partners asking. If they’re one of your fav, help out a little. (I did 1-2 hrs a day during vacation for a partner who has always helped me) If they’re not, don’t answer the email. The days of threatening to fire an associate because they’re not willing to work on vacation are over.

[lolwutpar]

This is probably one of the greatest times in biglaw history for associate leverage. They need you more than you need them, really. As a rule, I don't work on vacation outside of answering quick emails if people are trying to get up to speed on something I was handling. Don't open docs, don't attend calls.

[eastcoast_iub]

Midlevel who just returned from vacation chiming in, it's all about setting the right expectations. Stop taking work several weeks in advance of your vacation, get coverage for everything and set the expectation that you won't be available, including in your OOO message. Omit any reference to "responses being delayed."

Reasonable people understand that vacation is necessary to recharge after dealing with the stress inherent in this profession, and will not bother you unless it is critical. I did not answer any e-mails at all, other than to provide background on any matters that only I was on. Any e-mails that only I was copied in were responded to after I got back.

Competent associates do have tremendous leverage right now and should not be afraid to use it.

[Wubbles]

Enjoy the vacation, midlevels are currently unreplaceable.

[Anonymous User]

OP here, thanks so much everyone. This really makes me feel better and has me feeling good about holding my ground. I haven’t taken a day off this year, and last year only involved a few long weekends.

Without giving too many details, the new matter concerns (1) an uncertain deadline and (2) internal reasons why a first draft needs completed multiple weeks early (but the world certainly wouldn’t end if it’s delayed a week). It seems unlikely the internal deadline will be affected by my vacation, but there’s a less than 10% chance. The new partner made a snide remark was made on a practice group call when people were asked about their vacation plans.

[Anonymous User]

OP - duplicate post

[Anonymous User]

OP - duplicate post

[Anonymous User]

OP - duplicate post

[Anonymous User]

I’m a mid level who has great reviews and has worked with a small number of partners. People have been quitting left and right in my group and different partners keep piling on the work.

I booked a vacation for this summer and gave notice a while ago to people I work with. A few of the new partners have dropped subtle hints about that not working with their projects. I’ve framed the vacation as something that’s happening instead of asking for permission.

What’s the worse that would happen if I stand my ground and just go? The trip is semi off the grid, and I haven’t taken a vacation in the last two years. I’m 95% sure I don’t want to be partner. Even if they’re that upset by me going, I can’t picture them actually doing much when the group is so underwater as is.

If you'll allow me a moment for some unethical advice: fuck em. They literally can't fire you. They're dying for good associates and paying out the nose to add to their existing workforce. We're in an unprecedented time where associates actually hold bargaining power at the table. I'm shocked that everyone on TLS is having discussions like "will we have to wear suits"; "will we have to come into the office", etc. If you're a midlevel right now, as long as you continue to bill, do whatever the fuck you want.

What are they gonna do fire you? Good luck finding a reliable mid-level that doesn't cost upwards of 250k to hire.

[Buglaw]

Like everyone else says, take the vacation. If it isn't OK, do you really want to be working some place where you can't take a vacation once every two years?

For what it's worth, in my experience, everyone takes vacations in big law. If this firm won't let you take a vacation, go work for any of the fifty others that will.

[lawlo]

Do you really have to be this conscientious and neurotic to succeed in big law? To worry so much about taking a vacation? Threads like these are just mind blowing.

[Joachim2017]

A lot of posters in this thread are talking about how wonderful (in terms of bargaining power) it is to be a mid-level associate right now. But that is only in corporate, right? My understanding is that corporate work is booming and Big Law desperately needs bodies for the work -- but the same is not nearly as true for litigation. Or am I missing something?

[jotarokujo]

A lot of posters in this thread are talking about how wonderful (in terms of bargaining power) it is to be a mid-level associate right now. But that is only in corporate, right? My understanding is that corporate work is booming and Big Law desperately needs bodies for the work -- but the same is not nearly as true for litigation. Or am I missing something?

no i don't think there's an actual tangible difference in bargaining power between lit and corp associates

[Anonymous User]

A lot of posters in this thread are talking about how wonderful (in terms of bargaining power) it is to be a mid-level associate right now. But that is only in corporate, right? My understanding is that corporate work is booming and Big Law desperately needs bodies for the work -- but the same is not nearly as true for litigation. Or am I missing something?

no i don't think there's an actual tangible difference in bargaining power between lit and corp associates

Considering corporate associates are getting 6 figure lateral bonuses and lit laterals are lucky to not have their year-end bonuses prorated, the market would say you're wrong.

[Joachim2017]

A lot of posters in this thread are talking about how wonderful (in terms of bargaining power) it is to be a mid-level associate right now. But that is only in corporate, right? My understanding is that corporate work is booming and Big Law desperately needs bodies for the work -- but the same is not nearly as true for litigation. Or am I missing something?

no i don't think there's an actual tangible difference in bargaining power between lit and corp associates

Considering corporate associates are getting 6 figure lateral bonuses and lit laterals are lucky to not have their year-end bonuses prorated, the market would say you're wrong.

Yeah the poster responding to my original question sounds wrong to me in terms of how busy the relative groups are, based on what I've heard about litigation at top firms. And the point about bargaining power I think is just wrong in general, not just in current times.

[nixy]

I mean bargaining power is determined by a lot, not just corporate v. lit. There are obviously more openings in corporate than lit right now, which is huge, but that doesn’t necessarily mean every corporate associate has more bargaining power than every lit associate - it also depends on the individual’s credentials, experience, and connections.

[CovidLurker]

I mean bargaining power is determined by a lot, not just corporate v. lit. There are obviously more openings in corporate than lit right now, which is huge, but that doesn’t necessarily mean every corporate associate has more bargaining power than every lit associate - it also depends on the individual’s credentials, experience, and connections.

What? I mean obviously - a litigation partner has more bargaining power than a 2nd year M&A associate. A Supreme Court clerks has more bargaining power than an incoming capital markets associate. The point is that holding all else equal (class year, experience, etc.), it's undeniable that corporate associates hold more bargaining power than litigation associations.