Dorsey & Whitney / Below Market Bonuses for Lower Am Law 100 Firms Forum

[Anonymous User]

According to Above the Law, Dorsey & Whitney (96th on the Am Law 100) just announced below market bonuses, ranging from $2,500 for people on track to bill 1800 to $20,000 for people on track to bill 2400+, with no adjustments for class year.

https://abovethelaw.com/2021/05/dorsey-special-bonuses/

What do people think? On the one hand, this is much less than the market for the upper Am Law 100 firms. On the other hand, it's better than nothing. Lots of firms in the lower Am Law 100 don't seem to have announced anything yet. Is this the start of a trend?

[Anonymous User]

I'm at a firm in the lower AmLaw 100. 6 months into my firm's financial year, I'm on track to bill 3000 hours and have brought in over $800,000 in revenue already this year. $20,000 sounds insulting but it's not as insulting as $0.

[Anonymous User]

If you are giving a special bonus that is way below market like that then you should just give it out to everyone and do it based on seniority like other firms, ESPECIALLY if the firm didn't do a special bonus in the prior year.

[Anonymous User]

I think this is shit and feel bad for associates at Dorsey & Whitney although I have more sympathy for the 3000 biller above.

Looking at the firm's "stats" you can tell this is a cheap ass ploy to just have the ability to market that they pay "special bonuses" or whatever reason. The firm has like what 170 associates in total and their revenue went up about $27 million based on Am law rankings. So you're telling me that a firm that made a cool $27 mil during the pandemic and didn't pay a special bonus last year, can't afford to just pay every associate a $20k bonus or some tiered seniority bonus without these strings attached?

My guess is they did it because they have to compete in market bonus paying markets like Dallas, Palo Alto and New York. I guess if you're in the Iowa office this is generous. But then again I wouldnt work at Dorsey if I were in a market paying city unless my billables were consistently less than 1900.

[LittleRedCorvette]

Unless they have an office in a bizarre location, I don't understand why anyone stays at these places, working the same (or at least similar) hours for significantly worse money.

[2013]

Unless they have an office in a bizarre location, I don't understand why anyone stays at these places, working the same (or at least similar) hours for significantly worse money.

Not everyone can get market paying jobs, even with the crazy lateral market. I know people who have decent grades/jobs who can’t even get interviews at some market paying firms (not corporate).

[Iowahawk]

Dorsey is a Minneapolis and Mountain West firm with a minimal presence in major markets, I don't know what ATL or people on this thread expected. By far the plurality of its attorneys are in Minneapolis, where market is 140k:

Minneapolis - 247
New York - 57
Seattle - 53
Denver - 38
Dallas - 21
Salt Lake - 20
Des Moines - 19
Palo Alto - 13
DC - 12
Missoula - 6
Wilmington - 3
Fargo - 2

Its prime competitors are Faegre, Fredrikson, Holland & Hart, etc., not Davis Polk. As for why people stay, Dorsey's comp is at or near the top of most of its markets and its associates benefit from low cost of living.

[AntipodeanPhil]

Dorsey is a Minneapolis and Mountain West firm with a minimal presence in major markets, I don't know what ATL or people on this thread expected.

Fair enough that they shouldn't be expected to pay the same as Davis Polk, K&E, et cetera in NYC, but it still seems cheap. For example, a senior associate billing close to 2,000 hours annualized would only get $5,000 on this scale. That said, the firms people should be shaming here are the firms that aren't paying anything - there are dozens of firms of around Dorsey's size or larger (some based in major markets) that haven't made any announcements yet, and presumably most of them aren't going to.

[LittleRedCorvette]

Dorsey is a Minneapolis and Mountain West firm with a minimal presence in major markets, I don't know what ATL or people on this thread expected. By far the plurality of its attorneys are in Minneapolis, where market is 140k:

Minneapolis - 247
New York - 57
Seattle - 53
Denver - 38
Dallas - 21
Salt Lake - 20
Des Moines - 19
Palo Alto - 13
DC - 12
Missoula - 6
Wilmington - 3
Fargo - 2

Its prime competitors are Faegre, Fredrikson, Holland & Hart, etc., not Davis Polk. As for why people stay, Dorsey's comp is at or near the top of most of its markets and its associates benefit from low cost of living.

Thanks for providing this information. I still don't know why folks in the bolded markets would stay (must not be able to move, as one poster suggested...).

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for providing this information. I still don't know why folks in the bolded markets would stay (must not be able to move, as one poster suggested...).

I'm assuming for the same reason people don't all jump to K&E

[Anonymous User]

I don't think the poster above was insinuating that Dorsey should be paying market bonus AMOUNTS but rather giving the bonuses without the billable hours requirement which many other firms have done. Just under 2,000 hours for only $5,000 is rough and not really worth it if you're in any office but Des Moines, Fargo, Missoula, or Wilmington. These associates can easily move to a non-peer firm and get a signing bonus worth their entire year's salary, but I get it that some people don't want to or can't move.

I think the biggest number that stands out to me here is what was mentioned earlier, that Dorsey has only 170 associates! A firm that is leveraged like that and has a significant jump in revenue can absolutely afford to give a straight out bonus payment.

[Anonymous User]

Its prime competitors are Faegre, Fredrikson, Holland & Hart, etc., not Davis Polk. As for why people stay, Dorsey's comp is at or near the top of most of its markets and its associates benefit from low cost of living.

With the offering of remote associates at biglaw firms (see other thread of firms doing permanent remote positions) who will pay much more than $140k, I don't know how strong of an argument low cost of living holds anymore. For the big market offices, I still don't understand why you would go Dorsey rather than Davis Polk, K&E, or even any other Am Law 50 firm in markets like NY, Palo Alto, Seattle, Dallas, etc. where cost of living isn't an excuse.

My general thought is if you bill more than 1900 at Dorsey or any other law firm that is not paying big law money and you are not getting the easy going work life balance that people typically leave big law for, then you are just cheating yourself.

[Iowahawk]

Its prime competitors are Faegre, Fredrikson, Holland & Hart, etc., not Davis Polk. As for why people stay, Dorsey's comp is at or near the top of most of its markets and its associates benefit from low cost of living.

With the offering of remote associates at biglaw firms (see other thread of firms doing permanent remote positions) who will pay much more than $140k, I don't know how strong of an argument low cost of living holds anymore. For the big market offices, I still don't understand why you would go Dorsey rather than Davis Polk, K&E, or even any other Am Law 50 firm in markets like NY, Palo Alto, Seattle, Dallas, etc. where cost of living isn't an excuse.

My general thought is if you bill more than 1900 at Dorsey or any other law firm that is not paying big law money and you are not getting the easy going work life balance that people typically leave big law for, then you are just cheating yourself.

I don't think permanent remote will be attractive to successful associates at firms of Dorsey's caliber, at least not for quite a while until if/when it gets more common, because of partnership prospects. A major perk of a firm like Dorsey is that if you are good at your job, you will probably make partner, as its low leverage shows, whereas it's not clear what the exit from Goodwin remote will be.

And without meaning to ignite the more general debate over the importance of COL for lawyers, however you count the COL benefit to making 140 in Minneapolis over NYC, it's immense, especially if you want to be a homeowner, have kids, etc.--Nerdwallet's calculator puts Minneapolis market at $147,000 higher than New York market in real terms. And of course most people in Minneapolis, Denver, Des Moines, etc. have no desire to work in NY so their relevant comparator is local market, not NY market or the tiny-for-now permanent remote market.

[Iowahawk]

Thanks for providing this information. I still don't know why folks in the bolded markets would stay (must not be able to move, as one poster suggested...).

Yeah, Dorsey is not really a competitor to market-paying biglaw firms in major markets. Its Denver office pays 150 according to NALP so I wouldn't be surprised if its major market offices are also below market.

[Anonymous User]

Former Dorsey associate here and can confirm that comp. in major markets is well below the big law firms in those cities. Not only is starting salary lower but the raises are about $3,000 to $5,000 per year so the separation becomes significant over time. It's all black box as well which makes it tough.

Poster above is right that partnership prospects are much better, but you'll be an income partner for a few years first (or longer if you're not a big bizdev person) and those salaries are on par with mid to senior level associates on the Cravath scale.

I worked just as much as my classmates who went into big law firms in the same city and I wasn't die hard fan of becoming a partner so it made sense for me to take the short term cash route instead.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know what Dorsey’s salary scale and bonuses are like?

Curious because I often hear associates say they want to go midlaw because it’s a better work life balance and worth the pay difference. It sounds like some of you are skeptical of that?

[2013]

Anyone know what Dorsey’s salary scale and bonuses are like?

Curious because I often hear associates say they want to go midlaw because it’s a better work life balance and worth the pay difference. It sounds like some of you are skeptical of that?

Dorsey is not midlaw.

[Anonymous User]

Poster here says that Steptoe who ranks at 97th on AM law 100 compared to Dorsey & Whitney's 96th, just announced MARKET special bonuses with a 1900 hour requirement made in two payments: viewtopic.php?p=10476169#p10476169

I don't have details but I assume if the payments are split, that gives associates time to catch up to 1900 annualized rates rather than the one shot Dorsey associates got here.

[Anonymous User]

.

[Anonymous User]

Damn Dorsey associates got screwed lol. Maybe they'll pull a Cooley and come back to make it right with a top up to make their associates whole.

[2013]

Why are people comparing Dorsey to Steptoe? They’re similarly ranked in AmLaw but are not similar in terms of RPL.

[Anonymous User]

Sorry for Dorsey associates. But then again, Dorsey is not really in the same league as the other firms. Think they are a big deal in MN and a few other random places, but no one else has ever heard of them.

I had the displeasure of being across from them on a deal (I was at a v10) and they were pretty awful. Think maybe because they are the "big fish" in MN and they are used to bullying ppl around there, but they were very mean and very very off market. Insisted on 10b-5 rep. Trying to get general releases, retroactive and prospective. Tried to get a knowledge and schedule scrape lol (never seen the schedule scrape before). And FOUGHT HARD on all of these points - their client didn't know or care about any of these points, just purely driven by the lawyers. Just bizarre. I've been across 30 person law firms from Oklahoma that were more professional and commercial.

[Anonymous User]

Sorry for Dorsey associates. But then again, Dorsey is not really in the same league as the other firms. Think they are a big deal in MN and a few other random places, but no one else has ever heard of them.

I had the displeasure of being across from them on a deal (I was at a v10) and they were pretty awful. Think maybe because they are the "big fish" in MN and they are used to bullying ppl around there, but they were very mean and very very off market. Insisted on 10b-5 rep. Trying to get general releases, retroactive and prospective. Tried to get a knowledge and schedule scrape lol (never seen the schedule scrape before). And FOUGHT HARD on all of these points - their client didn't know or care about any of these points, just purely driven by the lawyers. Just bizarre. I've been across 30 person law firms from Oklahoma that were more professional and commercial.

Can you tell us which Dorsey office this was? I’m looking to lateral from a V25 to my hometown and Dorsey is one of the few big law firms there. But what you’ve just described is the type of secondary market practice that I want to avoid..

[Anonymous User]

Sorry for Dorsey associates. But then again, Dorsey is not really in the same league as the other firms. Think they are a big deal in MN and a few other random places, but no one else has ever heard of them.

I had the displeasure of being across from them on a deal (I was at a v10) and they were pretty awful. Think maybe because they are the "big fish" in MN and they are used to bullying ppl around there, but they were very mean and very very off market. Insisted on 10b-5 rep. Trying to get general releases, retroactive and prospective. Tried to get a knowledge and schedule scrape lol (never seen the schedule scrape before). And FOUGHT HARD on all of these points - their client didn't know or care about any of these points, just purely driven by the lawyers. Just bizarre. I've been across 30 person law firms from Oklahoma that were more professional and commercial.

Can you tell us which Dorsey office this was? I’m looking to lateral from a V25 to my hometown and Dorsey is one of the few big law firms there. But what you’ve just described is the type of secondary market practice that I want to avoid..

This was their mothership (although they always kept randomly bringing up their NY office for some reason (maybe cause they felt like it made them more legitimate?) - I find out from this thread their NY office has like 50 ppl lol)

[Anonymous User]

Sorry for Dorsey associates. But then again, Dorsey is not really in the same league as the other firms. Think they are a big deal in MN and a few other random places, but no one else has ever heard of them.

I had the displeasure of being across from them on a deal (I was at a v10) and they were pretty awful. Think maybe because they are the "big fish" in MN and they are used to bullying ppl around there, but they were very mean and very very off market. Insisted on 10b-5 rep. Trying to get general releases, retroactive and prospective. Tried to get a knowledge and schedule scrape lol (never seen the schedule scrape before). And FOUGHT HARD on all of these points - their client didn't know or care about any of these points, just purely driven by the lawyers. Just bizarre. I've been across 30 person law firms from Oklahoma that were more professional and commercial.

Can you tell us which Dorsey office this was? I’m looking to lateral from a V25 to my hometown and Dorsey is one of the few big law firms there. But what you’ve just described is the type of secondary market practice that I want to avoid..

This was their mothership (although they always kept randomly bringing up their NY office for some reason (maybe cause they felt like it made them more legitimate?) - I find out from this thread their NY office has like 50 ppl lol)

Thanks for sharing. Thankfully not the market Im looking to go back to.