Biglaw lateral or stay? (Asia, EU, and USA) Forum

[Anonymous User]

Basically, I'm trying to make a decision, whether this is now or a few months in the future. The question is basically to leave now or 6 months/a year down the line, and if so, to where. Any help is appreciated.

I'm a second year associate in London at an MC firm, solely doing Capital Markets, graduated from a T13 school with a JD, and have offers on the table from multiple firms in NY. I also have been in touch with a recruiter who says it will be easy to net offers in Asia, and living there for some period has always been a dream of mine. My current employer seems happy with me, and I have nothing but good things to say about the firm I am with. I am kind of done with living in London, but the increased salary (80k COLA) and reduced hours (I bill anywhere between 1700-1900 hours at the moment), make it very attractive for me to stay.

Long-term goal is to work in the USA for the government and build a family there. I am not miserable in CM, but I have always thought I'd be happier in a different practice area. This is impossible to do if not in the US, and I have some worry that I'm already too late to switch (being in my second year). I, however, also want to stay in biglaw for as long as possible, making the most money as possible. This also entails avoiding soulcrushing hours to the extent possible. So, I'm wary to leave my current firm and office, enduring longer hours and reduced pay purely on the hope that a different practice area I have my eyes on is indeed something that I truly enjoy.

1. Go to NY now:
- Pro: I would be in the country I want to be in long-term and settle down in. I'd also have some chance to see what other practice areas are about, as I can only do CM in foreign jurisdictions (although the question is if this is still even possible).
- Con: I would lose my COLA, leaving 80k on the table. I am also wary of the workload: I have not been getting crushed in London yet (1800 billables a year), and everyone assures me it will be worse anywhere else.

2. Stay in London, for another 6 months/year, and then lateral:
- Pro: enjoy the extra money and relative reduced work load.
- Con: I am very over London and it is not a city I want to be in long-term. Part of me feels like I am putting my life on hold, and I'm basically counting down the days until I can leave. I am also not sure I can lateral in the future as easily (multiple recruiters have informed me the lateral market is especially hot right now, so the time to go is now).

3. Go to Asia, for a year or two instead of NY, and lateral to the US afterwards:
- Pro: I have always wanted to work/live in Asia for some period of time, and CM is the best/only way to accomplish this. If I go to NY, I might leave CM, and never have the chance to practice in Asia again. Plus I would still have the COLA, so the money would be just as good.
- Con: I have heard the hours and treatment are even more crushing here than in NY. Also, I would still be doing CM here, reducing my chances of potentially leaving this practice area. Additionally, I don't know how hard it is to lateral from Asia to the US, even if it is as a third/fourth year.

Thanks so much!

[Anonymous User]

I would go with option 3 because you would be getting the most benefits (fulfill a dream, experience a new place, keep the $80k). I don't know what workloads are like in Asia but NY will be very busy - any CM in the US will be busy for at least the next year or so IMO.

Also, I believe that although you want to settle long term in NY, you may develop some city fatigue there too after a few years. NY is always great and will always be fabulous so whether you go now or later, it wouldn't matter I don't think but the magic of it may wear off after a few years.

Lateraling as a 3/4 year shouldn't be a problem, those are prime years to move. However, going into a different practice is the risk here. Would you move into a different corporate practice at least or are you thinking like regulatory or lit? If it's another corporate practice like M&A or EC/VC, then I think you will have a better chance of re-tooling or getting staffed on a matter or two of that sort at your current firm to start developing your experience there.

[AntipodeanPhil]

Not sure how much help this is, but I'll share the only pieces of relevant information I have.

1. I have a good friend who was doing M&A work in NY but left as a second year to join a V20 capital markets group in Asia a couple of years ago. He was completely miserable. The worst problem was the hours, which were beyond intense, but he also complained about a complete lack of supervision and said he felt like he was learning very little. He looked into lateralling to the capital markets group at another firm, but wasn't confident that that would solve his problems. He is now doing M&A in Hong Kong, and seems somewhat happy.

2. I spent a summer at a firm in Asia in law school and had looked into going back for a couple of years to do M&A/corporate. Apparently for M&A/corporate, any significant amount of time in Asia will make it much harder for you to transition back to the U.S., though obviously a lot will depend on the details (firm, type of work, et cetera).

[Anonymous User]

I was the poster above AntipodeanPhil and with that new knowledge, I would lean toward option 2 and heading to NY instead.

However, I would also propose this: get your lateral offer to NY (and you can easily get an $80k+ signing bonus from what I have seen on TLS) and since firms are all pretty much remote still (ask to work remote until end of year or until Labor Day at least and cite the international move or whatever you need to - I know firms are being flexible on in office dates for new hires) and then go work remotely in Asia for next few months and enjoy that.

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone know if the hours are brutal in the Asia offices of MC firms as well? If not, OP could request an internal transfer, since he/she is already at an MC firm.

[Anonymous User]

I would go with option 3 because you would be getting the most benefits (fulfill a dream, experience a new place, keep the $80k). I don't know what workloads are like in Asia but NY will be very busy - any CM in the US will be busy for at least the next year or so IMO.

Also, I believe that although you want to settle long term in NY, you may develop some city fatigue there too after a few years. NY is always great and will always be fabulous so whether you go now or later, it wouldn't matter I don't think but the magic of it may wear off after a few years.

Lateraling as a 3/4 year shouldn't be a problem, those are prime years to move. However, going into a different practice is the risk here. Would you move into a different corporate practice at least or are you thinking like regulatory or lit? If it's another corporate practice like M&A or EC/VC, then I think you will have a better chance of re-tooling or getting staffed on a matter or two of that sort at your current firm to start developing your experience there.

OP here, thanks so much! Yeah, my switch would be to lit/regulatory, as I think corporate as a whole just isn't for me (although solid chance all of biglaw just will never get my blood going), making the practice switch harder regardless.

[Anonymous User]

Not sure how much help this is, but I'll share the only pieces of relevant information I have.

1. I have a good friend who was doing M&A work in NY but left as a second year to join a V20 capital markets group in Asia a couple of years ago. He was completely miserable. The worst problem was the hours, which were beyond intense, but he also complained about a complete lack of supervision and said he felt like he was learning very little. He looked into lateralling to the capital markets group at another firm, but wasn't confident that that would solve his problems. He is now doing M&A in Hong Kong, and seems somewhat happy.

2. I spent a summer at a firm in Asia in law school and had looked into going back for a couple of years to do M&A/corporate. Apparently for M&A/corporate, any significant amount of time in Asia will make it much harder for you to transition back to the U.S., though obviously a lot will depend on the details (firm, type of work, et cetera).

Ah, this is super helpful, and that kind of confirms my thoughts. I once spoke to a law school adjunct professor who also told me to "never work in Asia," due to the brutal work culture. He was counsel at a V20 firm in the US. Too bad to hear that is probably still accurate then.

[Anonymous User]

For what it's worth, I know a colleague who went to HK for about a year: she hated it. Apparently got yelled at, called awake at the randomest of times, and got deadlines on Sunday at 6 am for 10am.

I'd stay in your more cushiony job for another half year and then move to NY. I'd stay in London even longer, as by the sounds of it you are getting more money for less work, but if you really want to go to NY, I'd still stay in London for a bit longer. The lateral market is hot now, but I imagine it will become hot again.

[Anonymous User]

For what it's worth, I know a colleague who went to HK for about a year: she hated it. Apparently got yelled at, called awake at the randomest of times, and got deadlines on Sunday at 6 am for 10am.

I'd stay in your more cushiony job for another half year and then move to NY. I'd stay in London even longer, as by the sounds of it you are getting more money for less work, but if you really want to go to NY, I'd still stay in London for a bit longer. The lateral market is hot now, but I imagine it will become hot again.

Could you let me know if it was a US or a UK firm? Wondering if that makes any difference

[Anonymous User]

For what it's worth, I know a colleague who went to HK for about a year: she hated it. Apparently got yelled at, called awake at the randomest of times, and got deadlines on Sunday at 6 am for 10am.

I'd stay in your more cushiony job for another half year and then move to NY. I'd stay in London even longer, as by the sounds of it you are getting more money for less work, but if you really want to go to NY, I'd still stay in London for a bit longer. The lateral market is hot now, but I imagine it will become hot again.

Could you let me know if it was a US or a UK firm? Wondering if that makes any difference

UK firm. No idea how it is like for the US firms. The UK firm is very solid in London in regards to how nice it is to work at, so it definitely was an office-specific thing.

[Anonymous User]

For what it's worth, I know a colleague who went to HK for about a year: she hated it. Apparently got yelled at, called awake at the randomest of times, and got deadlines on Sunday at 6 am for 10am.

I'd stay in your more cushiony job for another half year and then move to NY. I'd stay in London even longer, as by the sounds of it you are getting more money for less work, but if you really want to go to NY, I'd still stay in London for a bit longer. The lateral market is hot now, but I imagine it will become hot again.

Could you let me know if it was a US or a UK firm? Wondering if that makes any difference

UK firm. No idea how it is like for the US firms. The UK firm is very solid in London in regards to how nice it is to work at, so it definitely was an office-specific thing.

Could you name and shame? I am seriously considering lateralling to HK and was focusing on MC firms because of their culture, but given your example, I'd have to adjust my strategy...

[Anonymous User]

Could you name and shame? I am seriously considering lateralling to HK and was focusing on MC firms because of their culture, but given your example, I'd have to adjust my strategy...

Not the commenter but as someone who is familiar with the area (have immediate friends/family, etc), I heavily doubt it’s a firm specific thing. HK/SG/KR/JP work culture is just generally bad.

[Anonymous User]

Current biglaw associate in Asia. I am not in CM but I've heard you will work intense hours in CM with very limited supervision, which will be very frustrating. Everyone I know who is in CM hates it. I've heard that M&A is better though.

Given the travel restrictions due to COVID, I really don't recommending coming here to do CM, unless you already have a network/family/friends in the Asian city you are considering lateraling to.

[Anonymous User]

double post

[mlsmeh]

I've practised in the UK (Magic Circle), the US and Asia (White shoe). DO NOT GO TO ASIA to practise as a second year. You will hate every living minute of it. Won't get to travel given COVID; so you'd be putting up with the hours and culture for no reason.

[Anonymous User]

to all those saying don't go to Asia, is the work culture worse than that of Cravath & Swaine?