OCI Strike Out - What to do Forum

[splitsecond]

I'm a 2L at a lower T14 that just struck out of BigLaw (for some personal reasons, my GPA during OCI reflected a very very low number, but it is much higher now)

I was slow on the job search, so I am currently looking at either doing an in-house position at a small tech company, possibly a summer law clerk position with a small civil rights litigation firm, or possibly a summer clerk position at an AmLaw100 insurance defense firm.

I ideally wanted to do transactional law, but I'm just trying to get any position that might place me in a better spot for Big Law recruiting my 3L year.

Any thoughts on what would be most beneficial? Also, when should I start networking/emailing recruiters/gearing up for 3L OCI? Would appreciate any advice.

[BrainsyK]

I can't answer your latter question, but I think the ID firm is probably best for setting a stage for trading up.

[Anonymous User]

Send your resume to all of the big capital markets shops. They're underwater, everyone is quitting. I work at a V10 and have seen like 5-10 people quit the capital markets group in the last 2 months alone. The work is awful and the personalities are not great from my experience but you'll probably get hired and it's always easier to find a job with a job.

[Wubbles]

Send your resume to all of the big capital markets shops. They're underwater, everyone is quitting. I work at a V10 and have seen like 5-10 people quit the capital markets group in the last 2 months alone. The work is awful and the personalities are not great from my experience but you'll probably get hired and it's always easier to find a job with a job.

I think this applies more to 3Ls than 2Ls right now. My firm is hiring 3Ls not 2Ls to fill the more immediate need for bodies in September

[Anonymous User]

Send your resume to all of the big capital markets shops. They're underwater, everyone is quitting. I work at a V10 and have seen like 5-10 people quit the capital markets group in the last 2 months alone. The work is awful and the personalities are not great from my experience but you'll probably get hired and it's always easier to find a job with a job.

I think this applies more to 3Ls than 2Ls right now. My firm is hiring 3Ls not 2Ls to fill the more immediate need for bodies in September

Following up as I am in the same boat as OP. Struck out at OCI despite improvements in my GPA. I've seen those listings targeted toward 3L's to work right out of graduation. Do you see 3L hiring becoming more robust, or is this just a one-off thing?

[Wubbles]

Send your resume to all of the big capital markets shops. They're underwater, everyone is quitting. I work at a V10 and have seen like 5-10 people quit the capital markets group in the last 2 months alone. The work is awful and the personalities are not great from my experience but you'll probably get hired and it's always easier to find a job with a job.

I think this applies more to 3Ls than 2Ls right now. My firm is hiring 3Ls not 2Ls to fill the more immediate need for bodies in September

Following up as I am in the same boat as OP. Struck out at OCI despite improvements in my GPA. I've seen those listings targeted toward 3L's to work right out of graduation. Do you see 3L hiring becoming more robust, or is this just a one-off thing?

I certainly see it leveling off back to where it was the last few years, where it'll return to fall hiring for groups that firms couldn't fill from their summer classes (these are usually random groups such as structured finance, investment funds, or ones that scared summers off like capital markets).

[splitsecond]

timeline wise, when would you be reaching out to firms with application materials? would it be during the 2021 summer, after the 2021 summer, or into the fall/spring of 3L year? Would you suggest networking, and if so, when?

[splitsecond]

I can't answer your latter question, but I think the ID firm is probably best for setting a stage for trading up.

thanks for replying. the ID firm would be litigation work. if i want to do transactional work at a firm, would it be possible to go from inhouse my 2L year to a biglaw or midlaw job after 3L? or would it be safer to try and do litigation at the ID firm and pivot to litigation with a biglaw/midlaw firm after 3L?

[Anonymous User]

As someone that was in the exact same situation as you 5 years ago, I'd go the in-house small tech company route. Your credentials will show you have the aptitude for big law alone, so now its about standing out in a crowd. Every corporate associate/partner I know will think the in-house tech role is a great summer experience and you'll be able to spin it as "Everyone I know is doing biglaw, so I figured I'd try something closer to the business first since I'm still in school and transactional work is why i came to law school in the first place". It won't make sense to people in law school, but it will definitely make sense to other people who don't like their corporate big law jobs and wished they'd done an in-house role at a tech company their 2L year. Also, you will spend the summer learning a ton about corporate law/business, which will be good not only for your job post-JD, but also for having stories to tell during interviews.

Do Not Do ID Defense. Every question you'll get 3L OCI - "If you want to do transactional, why did you do insurance litigation?" "It's the best job I could get" is not a good answer to that one.

I'd start networking as soon as possible and start working on your resume and interview answers ASAP. Use the law firm websites to find corporate partners that went to your school and set up as many coffees as possible.

[Anonymous User]

Was in the same boat as you during my 2L job hunt. Didn't do well 1L Fall at a lower t14, got my grades up a bit but not a ton 1L Spring, struck out at OCI.

Ended up with three options:

(1) Unpaid fedgov in a practice area I was interested in but no possibility of a return offer
(2) Unpaid spot at a desirable DA's office which is not what I was interested in but I absolutely would have gotten a return offer
(3) A well-paid in-house gig at a big company in an industry I wasn't particularly interested in, but with a solid chance at a return offer

I took the in-house gig. Although I wasn't interested in the company's industry directly, it was related enough to the type of work I wanted to do that I was able to spin it in interviews. During 2L/3L, I got my grades up sufficiently that I appeared to be credentialed for Big Law. I got a return offer and accepted but kept looking for Big Law jobs anyway. Ended up with a V25 offer (and a few other interviews from V50-V10 but just the one offer).

During my interviews with the V25 I accepted, the partners asked me why I "chose" to go in-house instead of going with a firm. I guess from the looks of my resume at that point, my GPA was high enough that if I had it at OCI, I would've gotten Big Law. Also, the in house job was good enough that it appeared I had made the choice. I told them it wasn't by choice and although I enjoyed my time in house and would be happy to return, I came to law school to get a job at a big firm and that was still my goal. I also went on a tangent about how working in house, you only learn how that company does things, whereas at a firm you get a wider range of ideas/methods/processes.

All this to say, I'd take the in house offer at the small tech company. Even though they are small, you can use it to show subject matter interest in tech, or even a niche interest in whatever sub-genre of tech the company's in. Then spend the next couple of semesters getting those grades tf up and applying to everything under the sun.

It's probably too late to get something new for the summer, but you can spend the summer and your 3L year grinding out apps. I applied to anything that was in a practice area/city I was interested in that was asking for 3 or less years experience. One of those apps turned into my V25. Be aggressive, don't be afraid to drop a resume and write up a quick cover letter, and network where possible.

[Anonymous User]

I was in the exact same boat as you. I struck out at big law OCI despite 4 callbacks and an improved second-semester GPA. Interviewing over Zoom is tough, and sometimes you end up with bad luck.

Between January and April (now), I sent about 150 applications. I applied to all of the V100 I didn't speak to with during OCI, another 30-40 medium-to-small firms, and government agencies. I landed two small law firm screeners and one with a government agency. I ultimately received an offer from one of the firms (in a small market) and the government office (in a major market). I accepted the small law firm SA and will be making about half of what my BL classmates are making. However, I'll still be a "summer associate" at a small firm doing commercial-facing litigation, albeit for smaller clients.

Go all out and do everything you can to speak with smaller firms. A lot of them are indeed still hiring right now. The firm I am spending my summer with literally put up a posting two weeks ago. Apply to small firms in your home market, the market where you went to school, and anywhere you have a connection from. And apply to government agencies. It sucks to be in that spot but do you have to keep grinding until you get something. I know it feels like hell but you also just have to stay positive. You can and will get a job if you keep at it.

[cam1992]

Quick note re Insurance Defense--I was in a similar position, I wanted a transactional position, but I was only offered a litigation position. I accepted the litigation position, and when I went through 3L hiring I was honest and said "I wanted to spend my summer at a big law firm, and this was the only offer from a big law firm that I received." No one questioned that explanation because (1) it was the truth and (2) most attorney's can relate/understand to that line of thinking.

[Anonymous User]

I respect the hell out of y'all who have made something happen this summer. I struck out and have had several interviews but things just keep ending in rejection due to, in a few instances, not having sufficient ties. Just cannot get things to land.

[jotarokujo]

I think in-house is solid choice for people looking for transactional. if you were trying to get biglaw litigation from 3L job hunting i wouldn't recommend in-house, i'd recommend a litigating position somewhere or a judicial externship.

[Anonymous User]

Quick note re Insurance Defense--I was in a similar position, I wanted a transactional position, but I was only offered a litigation position. I accepted the litigation position, and when I went through 3L hiring I was honest and said "I wanted to spend my summer at a big law firm, and this was the only offer from a big law firm that I received." No one questioned that explanation because (1) it was the truth and (2) most attorney's can relate/understand to that line of thinking.

thanks for your reply. did you manage to get a biglaw job through 3L hiring (for transactional work)? how did they view the insurance defense firm experience?

[Anonymous User]

I was in the exact same boat as you. I struck out at big law OCI despite 4 callbacks and an improved second-semester GPA. Interviewing over Zoom is tough, and sometimes you end up with bad luck.

Between January and April (now), I sent about 150 applications. I applied to all of the V100 I didn't speak to with during OCI, another 30-40 medium-to-small firms, and government agencies. I landed two small law firm screeners and one with a government agency. I ultimately received an offer from one of the firms (in a small market) and the government office (in a major market). I accepted the small law firm SA and will be making about half of what my BL classmates are making. However, I'll still be a "summer associate" at a small firm doing commercial-facing litigation, albeit for smaller clients.

Go all out and do everything you can to speak with smaller firms. A lot of them are indeed still hiring right now. The firm I am spending my summer with literally put up a posting two weeks ago. Apply to small firms in your home market, the market where you went to school, and anywhere you have a connection from. And apply to government agencies. It sucks to be in that spot but do you have to keep grinding until you get something. I know it feels like hell but you also just have to stay positive. You can and will get a job if you keep at it.

Thanks for the reply -- it's really nice to know that others have gone through a similar experience. From what I gather, most government agencies recruit a lot earlier in the year, but yes, I've been grinding out applications to firms. Can I ask - are you litigation focused? How small is the law firm you're planning to go to? I've gotten offers from small firms (between 5-10 attorneys), but the reason I hesitate is because they either do practice areas I'm not interested in (personal injury) or their transactional law practice seems more limited in scope (like wedding venue contracts), whereas the in-house place is doing actual deal work.

[Anonymous User]

I respect the hell out of y'all who have made something happen this summer. I struck out and have had several interviews but things just keep ending in rejection due to, in a few instances, not having sufficient ties. Just cannot get things to land.

Hey, hang in there. This year is rough as hell, especially with covid. The process is really unpredictable and unforgiving. I know it's tough, but just keep grinding out applications - when you finally get an interview, just prepare as much as you can and act like it's your dream job! Something will stick in the end, you just gotta keep going at it. I'm rooting for you.

[Anonymous User]

Was in the same boat as you during my 2L job hunt. Didn't do well 1L Fall at a lower t14, got my grades up a bit but not a ton 1L Spring, struck out at OCI.

Ended up with three options:

(1) Unpaid fedgov in a practice area I was interested in but no possibility of a return offer
(2) Unpaid spot at a desirable DA's office which is not what I was interested in but I absolutely would have gotten a return offer
(3) A well-paid in-house gig at a big company in an industry I wasn't particularly interested in, but with a solid chance at a return offer

I took the in-house gig. Although I wasn't interested in the company's industry directly, it was related enough to the type of work I wanted to do that I was able to spin it in interviews. During 2L/3L, I got my grades up sufficiently that I appeared to be credentialed for Big Law. I got a return offer and accepted but kept looking for Big Law jobs anyway. Ended up with a V25 offer (and a few other interviews from V50-V10 but just the one offer).

During my interviews with the V25 I accepted, the partners asked me why I "chose" to go in-house instead of going with a firm. I guess from the looks of my resume at that point, my GPA was high enough that if I had it at OCI, I would've gotten Big Law. Also, the in house job was good enough that it appeared I had made the choice. I told them it wasn't by choice and although I enjoyed my time in house and would be happy to return, I came to law school to get a job at a big firm and that was still my goal. I also went on a tangent about how working in house, you only learn how that company does things, whereas at a firm you get a wider range of ideas/methods/processes.

All this to say, I'd take the in house offer at the small tech company. Even though they are small, you can use it to show subject matter interest in tech, or even a niche interest in whatever sub-genre of tech the company's in. Then spend the next couple of semesters getting those grades tf up and applying to everything under the sun.

It's probably too late to get something new for the summer, but you can spend the summer and your 3L year grinding out apps. I applied to anything that was in a practice area/city I was interested in that was asking for 3 or less years experience. One of those apps turned into my V25. Be aggressive, don't be afraid to drop a resume and write up a quick cover letter, and network where possible.

Thanks, this is seriously helpful and encouraging. Timeline wise, when would you be reaching out to firms with application materials? Would it be during the 2021 summer, after the 2021 summer, or into the fall/spring of 3L year?

[Anonymous User]

As someone that was in the exact same situation as you 5 years ago, I'd go the in-house small tech company route. Your credentials will show you have the aptitude for big law alone, so now its about standing out in a crowd. Every corporate associate/partner I know will think the in-house tech role is a great summer experience and you'll be able to spin it as "Everyone I know is doing biglaw, so I figured I'd try something closer to the business first since I'm still in school and transactional work is why i came to law school in the first place". It won't make sense to people in law school, but it will definitely make sense to other people who don't like their corporate big law jobs and wished they'd done an in-house role at a tech company their 2L year. Also, you will spend the summer learning a ton about corporate law/business, which will be good not only for your job post-JD, but also for having stories to tell during interviews.

Do Not Do ID Defense. Every question you'll get 3L OCI - "If you want to do transactional, why did you do insurance litigation?" "It's the best job I could get" is not a good answer to that one.

I'd start networking as soon as possible and start working on your resume and interview answers ASAP. Use the law firm websites to find corporate partners that went to your school and set up as many coffees as possible.

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense and I really appreciate your reply and insight. When I was looking at the ID firm, it looked pretty large and like it would be the best option, but when researching more into it, a lot of people online say that it's a terrible career move, so I really wanted to get more insight on that. When I was considering the ID defense, I was thinking if it would make more sense to give up on transactional law, pivot to litigation entirely, and do Big Law recruiting as a 3L targeting litigation.

Did you successfully get a biglaw job as a 3L? If so, did you get it by networking/sending out materials? I'm trying to get a sense of the timeline for 3L recruiting.

[cam1992]

Quick note re Insurance Defense--I was in a similar position, I wanted a transactional position, but I was only offered a litigation position. I accepted the litigation position, and when I went through 3L hiring I was honest and said "I wanted to spend my summer at a big law firm, and this was the only offer from a big law firm that I received." No one questioned that explanation because (1) it was the truth and (2) most attorney's can relate/understand to that line of thinking.

thanks for your reply. did you manage to get a biglaw job through 3L hiring (for transactional work)? how did they view the insurance defense firm experience?

Apologize for lack of clarity, but I was not in insurance defense, I was in commercial litigation. I was in a satellite office for a V100 firm and the office did not offer transactional work, so I could not change groups within the firm. And no, I did not end up changing firms. I was focused on clerkships the first semester of my 3L year and by the time I was looking for a new firm Covid hit (I literally had two callbacks the Friday and Monday before the country shut down). I decided to withdraw from the hiring process because of the economic uncertainty and stay with my old firm. This was a mistake as I am now a first year litigation associate already planning to lateral to a transactional position.

[Anonymous User]

Was in the same boat as you during my 2L job hunt. Didn't do well 1L Fall at a lower t14, got my grades up a bit but not a ton 1L Spring, struck out at OCI.

Ended up with three options:

(1) Unpaid fedgov in a practice area I was interested in but no possibility of a return offer
(2) Unpaid spot at a desirable DA's office which is not what I was interested in but I absolutely would have gotten a return offer
(3) A well-paid in-house gig at a big company in an industry I wasn't particularly interested in, but with a solid chance at a return offer

I took the in-house gig. Although I wasn't interested in the company's industry directly, it was related enough to the type of work I wanted to do that I was able to spin it in interviews. During 2L/3L, I got my grades up sufficiently that I appeared to be credentialed for Big Law. I got a return offer and accepted but kept looking for Big Law jobs anyway. Ended up with a V25 offer (and a few other interviews from V50-V10 but just the one offer).

During my interviews with the V25 I accepted, the partners asked me why I "chose" to go in-house instead of going with a firm. I guess from the looks of my resume at that point, my GPA was high enough that if I had it at OCI, I would've gotten Big Law. Also, the in house job was good enough that it appeared I had made the choice. I told them it wasn't by choice and although I enjoyed my time in house and would be happy to return, I came to law school to get a job at a big firm and that was still my goal. I also went on a tangent about how working in house, you only learn how that company does things, whereas at a firm you get a wider range of ideas/methods/processes.

All this to say, I'd take the in house offer at the small tech company. Even though they are small, you can use it to show subject matter interest in tech, or even a niche interest in whatever sub-genre of tech the company's in. Then spend the next couple of semesters getting those grades tf up and applying to everything under the sun.

It's probably too late to get something new for the summer, but you can spend the summer and your 3L year grinding out apps. I applied to anything that was in a practice area/city I was interested in that was asking for 3 or less years experience. One of those apps turned into my V25. Be aggressive, don't be afraid to drop a resume and write up a quick cover letter, and network where possible.

Thanks, this is seriously helpful and encouraging. Timeline wise, when would you be reaching out to firms with application materials? Would it be during the 2021 summer, after the 2021 summer, or into the fall/spring of 3L year?

OP here. Covid threw a wrench in my plans. In normal years I'd be reaching out during the summer and early fall, right around OCI. My dumb ass thought that meant the play was to wait until February OCI this year so that firms would have a more comprehensive view of their hiring needs. That was dumb, but my GPA went up a little bit last semester so it wasn't a total loss I suppose. I'm sure there are people who would know better than me but my advice would be to start applying mid summer and don't stop until you find something you want.