Negotiating Biglaw Comp as a 3L? Forum

[El_Bee_Oh]

If I get an offer after the summer at a firm that's way below my expected school / grades outcome (and they know that) and I have an offer with a V5, can I negotiate my starting salary / bonus / perks, etc.?

[publius365]

If I get an offer after the summer at a firm that's way below my expected school / grades outcome (and they know that) and I have an offer with a V5, can I negotiate my starting salary / bonus / perks, etc.?

I don't think they're going to negotiate your starting salary (assuming it is really biglaw, it should be lockstep for first year associates) or bonus (as you are not a lateral). They might be flexible on perks depending on what you are going to ask for.

[RokosBasilisk2049]

Why would a firm ever care? The legal market is grossly oversaturated with lawyers. Literally every single firm paying 190k starting has a goddamn army of law students saddled with ridiculous debt that are waiting to break down the door for a chance at that sweet 190K.

Factors like law school grades, school prestige, law review, etc. are all just random arbitrary measures that firms use to thin the pile of applications because they have to thin it somehow and school/gpa is quick and easy. It doesn't mean the firm actually thinks that you are special or more valuable to the firm in some way.

[Definitely Not North]

what? no

[the lsat failure]

I'm imagining this scenario play out and you will 100% be forced to take that v5 offer the moment you try to leverage it. Think about it - you come up to a partner and in a roundabout way ask: "hey the firm you partially own and have an emotional/financial investment is subjectively shittier than this other firm, can I get some more money when I have zero experience and have nothing else to offer?"

This works in the law school context because admissions is a numbers game and scholarships are culturally accepted bargaining chips. Employment offers are not the same. This is also a very specific hypothetical as well - did this happen to you or are you hoping to snag a v5 offer during your 3L year? This reeks of T6 energy...if you have the v5 offer just take it. This post shows that you'll always feel an inferiority complex until you're at a firm you believe fits your "school/grades."

[aegor]

LOL at someone thinking that junior associates are somehow that distinguishable in advance in quality regarding the bitchwork they have to do.

[tlsguy2020]

Unless the V5 is Wachtell, wouldn’t the comp at whatever biglaw firm you’re at be the same? What would you be negotiating?

[Definitely Not North]

I changed my mind. you should definitely try to negotiate your first year comp with this inferior biglaw shop that should be kissing your feet. do they even know what you're bring to the table? what you would be turning down to grace them with your intellect? please keep this thread updated

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Unless the V5 is Wachtell, wouldn’t the comp at whatever biglaw firm you’re at be the same? What would you be negotiating?

Superstar didn't quite think this through LOL

"I understand you pay the same as the V5. I, however, would like more than that, for you see, I had an offer at a V5."

[El_Bee_Oh]

OP here: I am at a T6 at the top of my class and the firm went on and on about "how excited they were" that I decided to accept my offer and I know for a fact my grades/LSAT/school is better then the average person at this firm. Given that context, should I not try to see if they'll compensate me for that? Plus, I have heard that most job offers are meant to be negotiated.

Should I be having this conversation with the HR and recruiting team? I am not sure how plugged in they are to school rankings / grades or if they have the right context so maybe I should instead talk to a partner?

[nixy]

Yes. Go to the most important partner you can find and explain how much more valuable you are than everyone else at the firm. I am sure they will reward you generously.

[hoos89]

OP here: I am at a T6 at the top of my class and the firm went on and on about "how excited they were" that I decided to accept my offer and I know for a fact my grades/LSAT/school is better then the average person at this firm. Given that context, should I not try to see if they'll compensate me for that? Plus, I have heard that most job offers are meant to be negotiated.

Should I be having this conversation with the HR and recruiting team? I am not sure how plugged in they are to school rankings / grades or if they have the right context so maybe I should instead talk to a partner?

Most job offers should be negotiated, yes, but not offers to be a first year associate at a biglaw firm where everybody in your class year is paid on a pre-set scale. As a lateral you can negotiate signing bonus, class year, etc., but you really just don't have much leverage as an incoming first year associate. First year associates are already overpaid relative the near-term value they bring to the firm. Sure you've got great grades at a great school and all, but you're not bringing any tangible skills to the table.

[Anonymous User]

If you already have a higher-paying offer in hand, I don't see anything wrong with seeing if they'd help bridge the gap. Posters here are, in my opinion unfairly, acting like it would have to be a prestige-shaming conversation rather than the compensation matching negotiation it should be.

OP isn't asking the firm to pay more because their firm is less prestigious, OP its asking the firm if they are willing to pay more because they have another offer from a firm that pays more. That seems pretty reasonable to me.

With that being said, I wouldn't bring up that your other offer is from a V5 or any kind of qualifier about your quality relative to other associates, your school, your grades, or the other firm other than that it pays market.

[hoos89]

If you already have a higher-paying offer in hand, I don't see anything wrong with seeing if they'd help bridge the gap. Posters here are, in my opinion unfairly, acting like it would have to be a prestige-shaming conversation rather than the compensation matching negotiation it should be.

OP isn't asking the firm to pay more because their firm is less prestigious, OP its asking the firm if they are willing to pay more because they have another offer from a firm that pays more. That seems pretty reasonable to me.

With that being said, I wouldn't bring up that your other offer is from a V5 or any kind of qualifier about your quality relative to other associates, your school, your grades, or the other firm other than that it pays market.

That's fundamentally not how any of this works. There's a set associate pay scale at these places. They're not just gonna put him on another firm's pay scale...they'll just make an offer to some other candidate they interviewed instead.

[nixy]

If you already have a higher-paying offer in hand, I don't see anything wrong with seeing if they'd help bridge the gap. Posters here are, in my opinion unfairly, acting like it would have to be a prestige-shaming conversation rather than the compensation matching negotiation it should be.

OP isn't asking the firm to pay more because their firm is less prestigious, OP its asking the firm if they are willing to pay more because they have another offer from a firm that pays more. That seems pretty reasonable to me.

With that being said, I wouldn't bring up that your other offer is from a V5 or any kind of qualifier about your quality relative to other associates, your school, your grades, or the other firm other than that it pays market.

Where did OP say that the other offer pays more?

[Anonymous User]

If you already have a higher-paying offer in hand, I don't see anything wrong with seeing if they'd help bridge the gap. Posters here are, in my opinion unfairly, acting like it would have to be a prestige-shaming conversation rather than the compensation matching negotiation it should be.

OP isn't asking the firm to pay more because their firm is less prestigious, OP its asking the firm if they are willing to pay more because they have another offer from a firm that pays more. That seems pretty reasonable to me.

With that being said, I wouldn't bring up that your other offer is from a V5 or any kind of qualifier about your quality relative to other associates, your school, your grades, or the other firm other than that it pays market.

Where did OP say that the other offer pays more?

OP of source quote: that's fair. When I read 'far below,' I figured it would be pretty deep in the rankings. I suppose OP could believe that a V50 is far below their credentials.

To the above, I know that it's not typical. But if OP already has an offer, and it's an offer that pays less (which we don't know) I don't really see the firm pulling their offer if he respectfully asks if they can help bridge the compensation gap. But, the possibility of offending them and having the offer revoked isn't so remote that I would be shocked if it happened.

[Sackboy]

Where did OP say that the other offer pays more?

We're all implying it from the question, because OP would be a total moron if OP had an offer from Cravath and was thinking about negotiating a better salary at Fried Frank.

[LittleRedCorvette]

If I get an offer after the summer at a firm that's way below my expected school / grades outcome (and they know that) and I have an offer with a V5, can I negotiate my starting salary / bonus / perks, etc.?

If you promise to come back and tell us what they say, I definitely encourage you to negotiate for more.

[Anonymous User]

We're all implying it from the question, because OP would be a total moron if OP had an offer from Cravath and was thinking about negotiating a better salary at Fried Frank.

"Inferring." But I made the opposite inference because I did not assume OP was not a moron, at least in this context.

There is also the very real possibility OP is hoping for a V5 offer from 3L OCI.

[nealric]

I guess we are all a bit confused by this. Is the original firm not a lockstep biglaw firm? Other than a few regional branches, I can't think of any biglaw firms that aren't lockstep for first years.

At a small firm (like just a handful of associates), you can negotiate. At a true biglaw firm on the $190k scale, there's nothing to negotiate and nobody cares you have a v5 offer. If it's a below-market biglaw firm, they aren't going to make an exception just for you.

[supermario26]

OP here: I am at a T6 at the top of my class and the firm went on and on about "how excited they were" that I decided to accept my offer and I know for a fact my grades/LSAT/school is better then the average person at this firm. Given that context, should I not try to see if they'll compensate me for that? Plus, I have heard that most job offers are meant to be negotiated.

Should I be having this conversation with the HR and recruiting team? I am not sure how plugged in they are to school rankings / grades or if they have the right context so maybe I should instead talk to a partner?

This is awesome. OP, I graduated with several classmates who had advanced degrees that took years to obtain (PhDs specifically) going into patent pros/lit, who weren’t as entitled as you. And those people actually had a reason to be for reasons other than “I go to a T6 and got good grades!” Can you imagine how excited those firms were to get a student with a PhD and post-doc in cell biology or physical chemistry or materials science?

I really hope you rethink not just this negotiation idea, but how you’ll act as a junior associate.

[2013]

OP here: I am at a T6 at the top of my class and the firm went on and on about "how excited they were" that I decided to accept my offer and I know for a fact my grades/LSAT/school is better then the average person at this firm. Given that context, should I not try to see if they'll compensate me for that? Plus, I have heard that most job offers are meant to be negotiated.

Should I be having this conversation with the HR and recruiting team? I am not sure how plugged in they are to school rankings / grades or if they have the right context so maybe I should instead talk to a partner?

This is awesome. OP, I graduated with several classmates who had advanced degrees that took years to obtain (PhDs specifically) going into patent pros/lit, who weren’t as entitled as you. And those people actually had a reason to be for reasons other than “I go to a T6 and got good grades!” Can you imagine how excited those firms were to get a student with a PhD and post-doc in cell biology or physical chemistry or materials science?

I really hope you rethink not just this negotiation idea, but how you’ll act as a junior associate.

OP will think first year doc review work is below him/her, and will begin delegating work to other first years who went to inferior schools.

[tlsguy2020]

OP here: I am at a T6 at the top of my class and the firm went on and on about "how excited they were" that I decided to accept my offer and I know for a fact my grades/LSAT/school is better then the average person at this firm. Given that context, should I not try to see if they'll compensate me for that? Plus, I have heard that most job offers are meant to be negotiated.

Should I be having this conversation with the HR and recruiting team? I am not sure how plugged in they are to school rankings / grades or if they have the right context so maybe I should instead talk to a partner?

This is awesome. OP, I graduated with several classmates who had advanced degrees that took years to obtain (PhDs specifically) going into patent pros/lit, who weren’t as entitled as you. And those people actually had a reason to be for reasons other than “I go to a T6 and got good grades!” Can you imagine how excited those firms were to get a student with a PhD and post-doc in cell biology or physical chemistry or materials science?

I really hope you rethink not just this negotiation idea, but how you’ll act as a junior associate.

OP will think first year doc review work is below him/her, and will begin delegating work to other first years who went to inferior schools.

OP did not take out $250k in debt to go to NYU just to be stuck doing the same shit as somebody from Duke

[avenuem]

OP here: I am at a T6 at the top of my class and the firm went on and on about "how excited they were" that I decided to accept my offer and I know for a fact my grades/LSAT/school is better then the average person at this firm. Given that context, should I not try to see if they'll compensate me for that? Plus, I have heard that most job offers are meant to be negotiated.

Should I be having this conversation with the HR and recruiting team? I am not sure how plugged in they are to school rankings / grades or if they have the right context so maybe I should instead talk to a partner?

This is awesome. OP, I graduated with several classmates who had advanced degrees that took years to obtain (PhDs specifically) going into patent pros/lit, who weren’t as entitled as you. And those people actually had a reason to be for reasons other than “I go to a T6 and got good grades!” Can you imagine how excited those firms were to get a student with a PhD and post-doc in cell biology or physical chemistry or materials science?

I really hope you rethink not just this negotiation idea, but how you’ll act as a junior associate.

OP will think first year doc review work is below him/her, and will begin delegating work to other first years who went to inferior schools.

Honestly, this should be a thing.

[RokosBasilisk2049]

OP here: I am at a T6 at the top of my class and the firm went on and on about "how excited they were" that I decided to accept my offer and I know for a fact my grades/LSAT/school is better then the average person at this firm.

The firm is just being polite, OP. The firm doesn't actually think you are more valuable because you got an A in property, or whatever.