Always be padding? Forum

[Anonymous User]

the incentives to pad are unrelated to how much partners collect on their time . . . biglaw associate pay isn’t dependent on how much the firm collects, but on many hours they bill.

No. Firms have technology to track your realization rates, which is far more important than the number of hours you bill. Biglaw management is quite sophisticated, you can't game them by simply padding your hours, setting aside the fact that padding your bill is a federal crime. Nice try.

Lmao what even is this post. Associates at firms with billable requirements are literally paid by billed time, not realized time. So you're absolutely wrong.

You're not "gaming" biglaw by padding your bill. You're making biglaw more money. There are clients who will hawk over and try to cut down legal bills, but they'll do the same for "unpadded" bills too. All other things held equal, I doubt there's a significant difference between realization rates for a reasonable padder vs. one of the sad souls on this thread who don't bill the time they're staying up past 10pm to get a document in the dead of the night.

I know of an associate who billed 3,000 hours, and who was let go before bonuses were paid specifically because the firm didn't want her to get a bonus. I'm not accusing them of padding hours, but I suspect the firm looked at the hours collected for this person, not the hours they billed, and made a decision accordingly.

Also, LOL just LOL at the level of criminal sophistication on TLS. If you're going to steal then do it in a creative way, not by billing for time you didn't work. Some serious low life dumbasses on this board.

"I saw someone get fired after 3,000 hours. I don't know why, but I'm going to assume without any evidence whatsoever that it's because of something involving their realization rate. Therefore, realization rates are more important than billed hours."

What did you get on the LSAT?

[Anonymous User]

I'm bowing out. This one of the shadiest and stupidest discussions I've ever had. Enjoy the rest of the thread.

lol, keeps posting a classic bad TLS take about "federal crimes" then bows out when people point out what a stupid statement that is.

Mail fraud bro. I, too, watched The Firm when I was in high school.

[nixy]

I know of an associate who billed 3,000 hours, and who was let go before bonuses were paid specifically because the firm didn't want her to get a bonus. I'm not accusing them of padding hours, but I suspect the firm looked at the hours collected for this person, not the hours they billed, and made a decision accordingly.

And your suspicion is based on what?

(Oops, apparently they took their ball and went home.)

[nixy]

(Are associates sending their hours through the US mail??)

[lolwutpar]

(Are associates sending their hours through the US mail??)

Maybe back in 1993 when The Firm came out.

[Anonymous User]

I use timers to keep track of billing and I am very diligent with my billing (no bathroom breaks, no grabbing water, no extra chit chat, tech issues I give 5 mins and then stop timer, etc.) and I have been told repeatedly that I am underbilling on matters... I tell partners that I am keeping track using timers so not sure how that is possible, and still get the talk.

[Anonymous User]

Underbilling is stealing from partners and is a federal crime

[Anonymous User]

I use timers to keep track of billing and I am very diligent with my billing (no bathroom breaks, no grabbing water, no extra chit chat, tech issues I give 5 mins and then stop timer, etc.) and I have been told repeatedly that I am underbilling on matters... I tell partners that I am keeping track using timers so not sure how that is possible, and still get the talk.

This happened to me when I first started. At my annual review, the partners said it couldn’t have been possible for me to only bill X hours given the amount of work I did that year.

My timer had like 100 time entries per matter because I was very diligent about time. Sometimes, I had like 30 second breaks in there.

Eventually I learned that most people determine time based on when they received an assignment and when they sent it (got email at 3:30, responded at 6 and did nothing else). This would be billed as 2.5. For me, given how insane I am, I probably would’ve ended up with like 1.6 or something because I stopped my clock each time I did something that wasn’t specifically related to the matter.

I recently started at a new firm and I’m still trying to figure out what can/can’t be billed, so I’ve been conservative again.

[Anonymous User]

What’s the consensus on whether to bill the time it takes to connect a client with a specialist or other attorney?

For example, client we do some corporate work for here and there. Reached out with a need for immigration visa specialist, I have to go find out who at our firm handles that, give them background, find out if they have bandwidth, then make the intro. Billable?

Sounds easy but it takes about an hour or so at times, especially if it’s a more complex request and I need to know who the right person is, but I get these kinds of requests quite often (3-5 a week) bc I’m in emerging companies so LOTS of clients and a variety of issues beyond corporate.

[SGTslaughter]

What’s the consensus on whether to bill the time it takes to connect a client with a specialist or other attorney?

For example, client we do some corporate work for here and there. Reached out with a need for immigration visa specialist, I have to go find out who at our firm handles that, give them background, find out if they have bandwidth, then make the intro. Billable?

Sounds easy but it takes about an hour or so at times, especially if it’s a more complex request and I need to know who the right person is, but I get these kinds of requests quite often (3-5 a week) bc I’m in emerging companies so LOTS of clients and a variety of issues beyond corporate.

100% billable.

[Anonymous User]

What’s the consensus on whether to bill the time it takes to connect a client with a specialist or other attorney?

For example, client we do some corporate work for here and there. Reached out with a need for immigration visa specialist, I have to go find out who at our firm handles that, give them background, find out if they have bandwidth, then make the intro. Billable?

Sounds easy but it takes about an hour or so at times, especially if it’s a more complex request and I need to know who the right person is, but I get these kinds of requests quite often (3-5 a week) bc I’m in emerging companies so LOTS of clients and a variety of issues beyond corporate.

If you're doing a service for a client of the firm, I think it's generally safer to assume it's billable than to not. Partners are usually pretty clear when you're not supposed to be billing something or there's some kind of cap or max hours expectation, in my experience.

Imagine if you were the client and you were using an associate like this with 0 expectation that you would pay for the services. Kinda bullshit.

[hdr]

What’s the consensus on whether to bill the time it takes to connect a client with a specialist or other attorney?

For example, client we do some corporate work for here and there. Reached out with a need for immigration visa specialist, I have to go find out who at our firm handles that, give them background, find out if they have bandwidth, then make the intro. Billable?

Sounds easy but it takes about an hour or so at times, especially if it’s a more complex request and I need to know who the right person is, but I get these kinds of requests quite often (3-5 a week) bc I’m in emerging companies so LOTS of clients and a variety of issues beyond corporate.

100% billable.

Sounds like the type of thing that could be written off but better to let the partners deal with it. I would bill until instructed otherwise.

[Elston Gunn]

(Are associates sending their hours through the US mail??)

They are using the interstate wires, obviously

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

No. Firms have technology to track your realization rates, which is far more important than the number of hours you bill. Biglaw management is quite sophisticated, you can't game them by simply padding your hours, setting aside the fact that padding your bill is a federal crime. Nice try.

1. I know this poster already left, but for posterity's sake, I want to remind everyone that "your" realization rate (which is really just the weighted average realization rate of matters you've billed to) is not the same thing as "writeoffs you're responsible for." When you have 20 people billing on a deal and the client demands a discount, it's not common that they're specifically highlighting entries they're not paying for; they're usually just applying a flat percentage discount or a set cap of a total bill that seems high. It's rare that a single associate is even identified as being responsible for that (and not in the aggregate when you work with the same people over and over again, as any Stats 101 student could tell you) and super duper rare that there's any actual consequence for it. There is a semi-common saying to the effect of "Clients demand discounts because firms pad, and firms pad because clients demand discounts."

Almost all firms have financial consequences for partners who write off too much time, so rest assured they're very attuned to, and conscious of, what they can actually get a client to agree to. If there was a problem, you would have heard about it pretty quickly. Which is to echo others ITT...realization is a partner's concern, not an associate's. Deciding what the client ought to be paying for is not your job in the slightest.

2. I'm resurrecting "...and that's a federal crime" as a meme and intend to shitpost with it regularly and anyone who is confused can (a) refer back to this thread and/or (b) kiss my ass.

[Anonymous User]

I use timers to keep track of billing and I am very diligent with my billing (no bathroom breaks, no grabbing water, no extra chit chat, tech issues I give 5 mins and then stop timer, etc.) and I have been told repeatedly that I am underbilling on matters... I tell partners that I am keeping track using timers so not sure how that is possible, and still get the talk.

This happened to me when I first started. At my annual review, the partners said it couldn’t have been possible for me to only bill X hours given the amount of work I did that year.

My timer had like 100 time entries per matter because I was very diligent about time. Sometimes, I had like 30 second breaks in there.

Eventually I learned that most people determine time based on when they received an assignment and when they sent it (got email at 3:30, responded at 6 and did nothing else). This would be billed as 2.5. For me, given how insane I am, I probably would’ve ended up with like 1.6 or something because I stopped my clock each time I did something that wasn’t specifically related to the matter.

I recently started at a new firm and I’m still trying to figure out what can/can’t be billed, so I’ve been conservative again.

I took your approach my first year and took the other approach my second. Guess which year I received a bonus and which year I didn't, despite being no more busy the second year.

[lolwutpar]

Speaking of efficiency, the most efficient thing I've seen is an of counsel doing a hand markup of docs while taking a dump. Walked out of the stall with docs under his arm like it was a totally normal thing to do.

Always

Be

Billing

[Sackboy]

Speaking of efficiency, the most efficient thing I've seen is an of counsel doing a hand markup of docs while taking a dump. Walked out of the stall with docs under his arm like it was a totally normal thing to do.

Always

Be

Billing

I do a ton of work from the shitter while WFH. Something about having the anus a bit spread definitely enhances the qualify of my work product. Dreading the decline of my toilet drafting when I go back to the office.

[lolwutpar]

Speaking of efficiency, the most efficient thing I've seen is an of counsel doing a hand markup of docs while taking a dump. Walked out of the stall with docs under his arm like it was a totally normal thing to do.

Always

Be

Billing

I do a ton of work from the shitter while WFH. Something about having the anus a bit spread definitely enhances the qualify of my work product. Dreading the decline of my toilet drafting when I go back to the office.

That makes sense to me. Handing someone poop papers you marked up while on the can is fuckin degenerate though.

[tlsguy2020]

Are all of sitting around discussing billing while we take a piss — the federal crime of wire fraud — committing RICO?

[Anonymous User]

I use timers to keep track of billing and I am very diligent with my billing (no bathroom breaks, no grabbing water, no extra chit chat, tech issues I give 5 mins and then stop timer, etc.) and I have been told repeatedly that I am underbilling on matters... I tell partners that I am keeping track using timers so not sure how that is possible, and still get the talk.

This happened to me when I first started. At my annual review, the partners said it couldn’t have been possible for me to only bill X hours given the amount of work I did that year.

My timer had like 100 time entries per matter because I was very diligent about time. Sometimes, I had like 30 second breaks in there.

Eventually I learned that most people determine time based on when they received an assignment and when they sent it (got email at 3:30, responded at 6 and did nothing else). This would be billed as 2.5. For me, given how insane I am, I probably would’ve ended up with like 1.6 or something because I stopped my clock each time I did something that wasn’t specifically related to the matter.

I recently started at a new firm and I’m still trying to figure out what can/can’t be billed, so I’ve been conservative again.

I took your approach my first year and took the other approach my second. Guess which year I received a bonus and which year I didn't, despite being no more busy the second year.

Yeah I barely missed my bonus my first year for this reason. Frustrating, but I hope other new associates reading this take to heart that there is zero upside to underbilling.

[Anonymous User]

Ignorant 2L here — what’s the point of padding at a firm that has no hours minimum? I guess partners take a look at everyone’s hours when deciding how to staff new assignments?

[Anonymous User]

Ignorant 2L here — what’s the point of padding at a firm that has no hours minimum? I guess partners take a look at everyone’s hours when deciding how to staff new assignments?

You're still expected to bill a sufficient number of hours even if there's no official minimum. And yes, billing more is key to avoiding more work. I've also found that the associates billing the least often get stuck with the awful, time-consuming nonbillable work that no one wants to do, making their lives just as busy yet they're missing out on billables.

[objctnyrhnr]

Ignorant 2L here — what’s the point of padding at a firm that has no hours minimum? I guess partners take a look at everyone’s hours when deciding how to staff new assignments?

You're still expected to bill a sufficient number of hours even if there's no official minimum. And yes, billing more is key to avoiding more work. I've also found that the associates billing the least often get stuck with the awful, time-consuming nonbillable work that no one wants to do, making their lives just as busy yet they're missing out on billables.

This

[Anonymous User]

Ignorant 2L here — what’s the point of padding at a firm that has no hours minimum? I guess partners take a look at everyone’s hours when deciding how to staff new assignments?

You're still expected to bill a sufficient number of hours even if there's no official minimum. And yes, billing more is key to avoiding more work. I've also found that the associates billing the least often get stuck with the awful, time-consuming nonbillable work that no one wants to do, making their lives just as busy yet they're missing out on billables.

This

I just benefitted from this as a tax associate who didn't have to jump in to write client updates on Biden's tax plan because I have enough deal work going on.

[lolwutpar]

Ignorant 2L here — what’s the point of padding at a firm that has no hours minimum? I guess partners take a look at everyone’s hours when deciding how to staff new assignments?

You're still expected to bill a sufficient number of hours even if there's no official minimum. And yes, billing more is key to avoiding more work. I've also found that the associates billing the least often get stuck with the awful, time-consuming nonbillable work that no one wants to do, making their lives just as busy yet they're missing out on billables.

Or, worse, you get pimped out to another practice group or office to do their crap work.