Is Cleary a Sweatshop? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Particularly interested in their corporate practice (M&A) - what are hours typically like? Also, I read on here that there is a 2,000 hours requirement - that seems a little off-brand and wondering whether anyone has any further intel on that.

[Anonymous User]

Yes it is, just like every other M&A practice. Anyone who pretends otherwise is being disingenuous.

[Anonymous User]

Yes it is, just like every other M&A practice. Anyone who pretends otherwise is being disingenuous.

Are you speaking generally or do you work / know people who work there? Yes, every M&A practice can be sweat-shoppy, especially these days, but trying to get specific details on Cleary's practice and whether associates tend be overworked there (i.e., regularly billing way over 2,000 a year).

[Anonymous User]

Not to hijack the thread, but curious to also hear from any Cleary associates whether Cleary has (1) cold-offered any summers and (2) has any yellers. Cleary might be a sweatshop just like the rest, but I'm (and likely OP as well) are curious if the sweatshop vibe is more tolerable at the firm.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a Cleary M&A junior. No yellers that I have encountered or heard about, and I honestly believe that people here are a bit nicer than at peer firms. I think we generally work a little bit less than our peer firms though that's always a hard thing to judge because it's anecdote against anecdote. We are certainly getting killed right now.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a Cleary M&A junior. No yellers that I have encountered or heard about, and I honestly believe that people here are a bit nicer than at peer firms. I think we generally work a little bit less than our peer firms though that's always a hard thing to judge because it's anecdote against anecdote. We are certainly getting killed right now.

Thanks for your response! Yeah, seems like M&A at most firms is pretty hectic at the moment. What are you typically billing on a monthly basis? Have you found some type of work/life balance there?

[Anonymous User]

I don't want to get into numbers - the group is pretty small, I'd worry about being identifiable. A lot. You will find once you start that the difference between, say, 200 and 220 is very noticeable, despite not looking like it, so I can't really give you a meaningful answer without getting more specific than I'm willing to go. And no, there has not been work-life balance recently. I do think that unlike at some other firms partners genuinely care about that, both because they don't want to lose too many people and because they are actually empathetic. Hopefully the workload lessens soon.

[Anonymous User]

Particularly interested in their corporate practice (M&A) - what are hours typically like? Also, I read on here that there is a 2,000 hours requirement - that seems a little off-brand and wondering whether anyone has any further intel on that.

Not M&A, but they said the 2,000 hours is meant to be a guidepost rather than a requirement and it doesn't impact comp/bonuses. You can also include unlimited pro bono and some (I think 50-70) hours of corporate citizenship (like recruiting) and I think (but this part was very unclear) additional substantive non billable (like articles).

[Anonymous User]

Particularly interested in their corporate practice (M&A) - what are hours typically like? Also, I read on here that there is a 2,000 hours requirement - that seems a little off-brand and wondering whether anyone has any further intel on that.

Not M&A, but they said the 2,000 hours is meant to be a guidepost rather than a requirement and it doesn't impact comp/bonuses. You can also include unlimited pro bono and some (I think 50-70) hours of corporate citizenship (like recruiting) and I think (but this part was very unclear) additional substantive non billable (like articles).

Understood, thanks. That doesn't sound too bad then. What has your experience at the firm been like?

[Anonymous User]

Particularly interested in their corporate practice (M&A) - what are hours typically like? Also, I read on here that there is a 2,000 hours requirement - that seems a little off-brand and wondering whether anyone has any further intel on that.

Not M&A, but they said the 2,000 hours is meant to be a guidepost rather than a requirement and it doesn't impact comp/bonuses. You can also include unlimited pro bono and some (I think 50-70) hours of corporate citizenship (like recruiting) and I think (but this part was very unclear) additional substantive non billable (like articles).

Understood, thanks. That doesn't sound too bad then. What has your experience at the firm been like?

Good, overall. I think it is generally on the more human and humane side of biglaw, and I really like the people. My hours have been up and down but overall doable (but still brutal at times). But I think that can often be the luck of the draw/staffing.

[Anonymous User]

Not to hijack the thread, but curious to also hear from any Cleary associates whether Cleary has (1) cold-offered any summers and (2) has any yellers. Cleary might be a sweatshop just like the rest, but I'm (and likely OP as well) are curious if the sweatshop vibe is more tolerable at the firm.

mid-level in corporate. have not encountered any yellers. afaik we always 100% offer summers.

[Anonymous User]

We sweat a good amount but (most days) it doesn’t feel like a sweatshop. The reality of biglaw corporate work is that the deals that power the engine require a lot of lawyer work and we’re here to please the clients. If a CFO wants to announce a deal before market open Monday, you will bill all weekend (and the week before), which you’ll also do at a big NY shop far down the rankings. That said, haven’t encountered any screamers and many of the partners/sr lawyers I’ve worked with will take the time to walk you through things, and they will acknowledge your humanoid condition and show appreciation after spending time in the bunker with you. Work/life balance is a struggle and the big reason why you see so much turnover (as elsewhere).

I billed around 2100 last year and this was met with approval (and some thanks) in reviews. Have heard from somewhat reputable source that averages are closer to 1900, so I do think the “2000 is a goalpost” is a soft nudge to bring that up a bit, though there really doesn’t seem to be a focus on hours like you hear about elsewhere. And we do probably work less than some of the whitest shoes.

[Anonymous User]

Edit to my post above -- 2000 is a "guidepost", not a goalpost, in the firm's messaging. Was a goalpost to get past for me, and there was more than enough work available to get there, but I can't see someone getting reamed for billing less. Culturally, I think we care a lot more about juniors being pro-active and engaged than putting up huge hours (though these usually go together). And search "aqua girl" for the one summer you hear about getting no offered.

[Anonymous User]

We sweat a good amount but (most days) it doesn’t feel like a sweatshop. The reality of biglaw corporate work is that the deals that power the engine require a lot of lawyer work and we’re here to please the clients. If a CFO wants to announce a deal before market open Monday, you will bill all weekend (and the week before), which you’ll also do at a big NY shop far down the rankings. That said, haven’t encountered any screamers and many of the partners/sr lawyers I’ve worked with will take the time to walk you through things, and they will acknowledge your humanoid condition and show appreciation after spending time in the bunker with you. Work/life balance is a struggle and the big reason why you see so much turnover (as elsewhere).

I billed around 2100 last year and this was met with approval (and some thanks) in reviews. Have heard from somewhat reputable source that averages are closer to 1900, so I do think the “2000 is a goalpost” is a soft nudge to bring that up a bit, though there really doesn’t seem to be a focus on hours like you hear about elsewhere. And we do probably work less than some of the whitest shoes.

Awesome, thanks so much for your detailed response. Are you in the M&A group? 2,100 doesn't sound too crazy...I've heard that associates at "sweat-shop" firms like K&E and Skadden bill upwards of 2,600+, so if that isn't the norm at Cleary corporate then thats reassuring.

[Anonymous User]

Edit to my post above -- 2000 is a "guidepost", not a goalpost, in the firm's messaging. Was a goalpost to get past for me, and there was more than enough work available to get there, but I can't see someone getting reamed for billing less. Culturally, I think we care a lot more about juniors being pro-active and engaged than putting up huge hours (though these usually go together). And search "aqua girl" for the one summer you hear about getting no offered.

Was 2,100 just a personal goalpost for you or was there a certain pressure coming from the corporate group to hit that?

[malibustacy]

Cleary clearly

[Anonymous User]

Edit to my post above -- 2000 is a "guidepost", not a goalpost, in the firm's messaging. Was a goalpost to get past for me, and there was more than enough work available to get there, but I can't see someone getting reamed for billing less. Culturally, I think we care a lot more about juniors being pro-active and engaged than putting up huge hours (though these usually go together). And search "aqua girl" for the one summer you hear about getting no offered.

Was 2,100 just a personal goalpost for you or was there a certain pressure coming from the corporate group to hit that?

not op but in my four years at cleary ive never had a single conversation about my hours (even when billing 50-80 per month in some stretch)

[Anonymous User]

[/quote]

not op but in my four years at cleary ive never had a single conversation about my hours (even when billing 50-80 per month in some stretch)
[/quote]

Those are rookie numbers compared to the mighty goldman sachs.

[Anonymous User]

Edit to my post above -- 2000 is a "guidepost", not a goalpost, in the firm's messaging. Was a goalpost to get past for me, and there was more than enough work available to get there, but I can't see someone getting reamed for billing less. Culturally, I think we care a lot more about juniors being pro-active and engaged than putting up huge hours (though these usually go together). And search "aqua girl" for the one summer you hear about getting no offered.

Was 2,100 just a personal goalpost for you or was there a certain pressure coming from the corporate group to hit that?

I had discussed hours goals informally in a review and the advice I got was basically "it looks good to have a 2 in front of that yearly number". But no one is getting in trouble for billing less if their group is slow. That being said, I'm in a bit of a corporate niche area (don't want to out myself), so other groups may consistently come in higher than that, certainly some luck of the draw involved, and you will have enough work to get you above 2000 before long.

In support of the "guidpost" messaging being real -- Cleary just announced special bonuses with no hours requirements, so they are sticking to their word (for now) of not tying comp to hours.