How much better is in-house really? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I got my Sunday blown up with a ton of comments from in-house counsel. They clearly spent their Sunday commenting, so how much better is it really?

Do any 9 to 6 (or even 9 to 7), most weekends free jobs connected to corporate law actually exist?

[Anonymous User]

I think it depends on practice area. I've been on an M&A deal for a while where I think the in-house counsel has been working similar (if not worse) hours as the biglaw deal team. In-house counsels that deal with capital markets/SEC reporting style work also seem similarly busy around the expected times, although not nearly as much as their biglaw counterparts.

[Elston Gunn]

Yeah, depends on the practice area. But I’m in a specialist role in house and it’s 9-6.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks both. So, I'm an M&A associate. Does this mean I'm doomed or are there some in-house roles that might overlook the fact that M&A is all I've ever known?

[TUwave]

Please don't destroy the dream... it's the only thing keeping me going.

[texas1100]

Definitely depends on area and company, but you can probably feel confident that worst case the in house job is mind numbingly boring but you’d have your nights and weekends. You can definitely find that. Where it gets tricky is when someone wants +200K, no weekends/nights and a fulfilling role. This is where most of the tension lies imo.

[LittleRedCorvette]

Definitely depends on area and company, but you can probably feel confident that worst case the in house job is mind numbingly boring but you’d have your nights and weekends. You can definitely find that. Where it gets tricky is when someone wants +200K, no weekends/nights and a fulfilling role. This is where most of the tension lies imo.

How about 175k and no nights/weekends? I need something to sustain me...

[Anonymous User]

I think it depends on practice area. I've been on an M&A deal for a while where I think the in-house counsel has been working similar (if not worse) hours as the biglaw deal team. In-house counsels that deal with capital markets/SEC reporting style work also seem similarly busy around the expected times, although not nearly as much as their biglaw counterparts.

What about litigation roles? I'm curious how quality of life compares to corporate/other speciality areas.

[Anonymous User]

I think it depends on practice area. I've been on an M&A deal for a while where I think the in-house counsel has been working similar (if not worse) hours as the biglaw deal team. In-house counsels that deal with capital markets/SEC reporting style work also seem similarly busy around the expected times, although not nearly as much as their biglaw counterparts.

What about litigation roles? I'm curious how quality of life compares to corporate/other speciality areas.

Friend of mine in lit talked about the fact that the in-house counsel worked just as hard as they did (including relocating for several weeks for the trial) in one case. I don't know if this is normal though.

[attorney589753]

I don't have actual experience to answer this question but I think it depends on your role and function. I mean, if you want to be influencing deals as an M&A lawyer that is going to mean sometimes weekend work, whether in-house or not, because deals sometime progress on the weekends. I do still think you are probably better off if in-house (like working on the term sheet, reviewing an issues list that firm made you, or reviewing the markup instead of drafting it). But overall if you are in a position with decision making power, or advising that person, then those roles often involve weekend work when necessary. I think one challenge with biglaw is that "when necessary" can easily become every weekend.

[Anonymous User]

I’ve talked to a lot of in house counsel. I think it really depends on where you end up. Based on what I’ve seen of where people can lateral right out of firms:

Tech Startup GC = Awesome when a company has their shit together, awful when it doesn’t. For the good companies, they tend to be much more 9-6 except when big deals are going on (which are only a couple times a year, maybe less). I also know one at a startup that is a shitshow and getting railed by sales guys trying to shove shitty NDAs and commercial contracts through legal because all they give a shit about is sales quota and commission. So getting bossed around by a 24 year old annoyed you are negotiating the assignment provision in their contract when they wanted this contract done yesterday.

Transaction Counsel at Established Companies = This often seems like a pretty good gig. I’m talking equity investments counsel at Verizon, Liberty Mutual, AMEX type gigs. Really easy to blend in, deal flow is usually moderate, a lot of middle aged people around you that aren’t trying to make a name for themselves. But salaries and comp are pretty banded and advancement can be tough given size and conservative nature. Very bureaucratic, but a lot of teams at these companies just take their sweet as time with their shit.

Transaction Counsel at FAANG type company = Can be pretty awful. Deal flow is high, demanding culture, can have some business development guy making your life a living hell. Also bureaucratic as hell. Have to manage HR, Tax, tech, compliance teams, and power struggles between these groups can be insane. Amazon Tax team is hell to deal with for instance. Good resume line though.

Commercial Counsel = Easiest to break into if you have some skill sets there. I’ve seen a couple people go down this route and then end up back in biglaw 3 months later. Negotiating NDAs and standard form MSAs all day can be rough. The work tends to be pretty easy overall, which can be a plus or a minus.

[Anonymous User]

I got my Sunday blown up with a ton of comments from in-house counsel. They clearly spent their Sunday commenting, so how much better is it really?

Do any 9 to 6 (or even 9 to 7), most weekends free jobs connected to corporate law actually exist?

Both in-house gigs I've had have generally been 9 to 5 or 6, no weekend or night work, unless something really pressing comes up.

Remember that for in-house counsel with better hours, usually when we engage outside counsel, it's because there's a big transaction that's going on, so we're working longer hours on that. But instead of that deal ending and immediately moving on to the next big, all consuming deal, as in biglaw, we go back to our regular hours. So even if there are blips of more intense hours, that's the exception, not the rule. There are certain in-house gigs that are closer to biglaw hours (I assume that tends to be the case for gigs where you're always involved in big deals, like in-house at an active PE shop, though that part is speculation), but between myself and law school classmates that I've kept in touch with, everyone who goes in-house from biglaw gets wildly better hours (for a pay cut, of course).

[ksm6969]

I think it depends on practice area. I've been on an M&A deal for a while where I think the in-house counsel has been working similar (if not worse) hours as the biglaw deal team. In-house counsels that deal with capital markets/SEC reporting style work also seem similarly busy around the expected times, although not nearly as much as their biglaw counterparts.

What about litigation roles? I'm curious how quality of life compares to corporate/other speciality areas.

I like it a lot more for a few reasons: First, you are much more involved in pre-litigation stuff. Like "this company did XYZ, do we have a suit, do you think its worth it to sue, etc?" This is kind of interesting work and requires deep knowledge of the industry and your co's position in it, i.e. thinking about current relationships, how an aggressive lawsuit would impact relationships/your reputation in the industry, how disruptive litigation would be, plus interviewing firms to represent you, etc. This is pretty interesting and an important decision (probably more important that any actual decision made during litigation) that you rarely see in a law firm outside of maybe high level counseling positions.

Once litigation starts, you can generally offload the boring work to outside counsel and focus on the bigger picture stuff. If you are particularly interested in a topic, you can do the research on that topic but if you arent, then outside counsel does it.

Hours for me were a lot better, because you are the client (so no jumping to respond to client emails within an hour or whatever), and because you are involved in big picture stuff so you arent fighting the little deadlines. Obviously if something goes to trial its still trial. But all the stuff before that is so much better.

The downsides are having to do annual department budgets and stuff, and then getting reamed if you go over or come in way under. Like, if someone sues you, or you decide to sue someone, the annual budget goes out of the window, but someone in upper management will still think you did a bad job estimating hours or something.

Obviously a lot depends on the company and how high/low you are in the food chain.

[Anonymous User]

I made the in-house transition a few months ago from biglaw M&A. Hours are pretty consistently 9-6 and I have yet to work on the weekend. As others have mentioned, there's a risk you'll get stuck churning out NDAs and MSAs if you pick the wrong role, but there's definitely 9-6 roles that include more strategic, corporate work as well. The GC often works on weekends, but nowhere near biglaw hours and it's not the same pressure as an M&A transaction.

[nealric]

It's going to depend a lot on company culture, but you can definitely find more reasonable hours in-house. Unlike a law firm, in house roles reward efficiency. The company doesn't make more money because you stay late (unlike your biglaw firm)- they make money if you close the deal or resolve the issue.

Outside counsel is often a lifesaver. They will burn midnight oil so you don't have to when on a large deal/case.

That said, there are likely to be occasional large deals/cases that require late/weekend work on short notice. I once showed up to the office one morning and realized I had to catch the next plane to Europe that afternoon to help get a deal signed (my specialty ended up being a last minute key negotiation point). That meant 3 marathon days of work after a overnight flight. But that's a once in a blue moon thing and at least I got to be a key player in the room for the deal. Very different experience from an associate having a random all-nighter dumped on them. And that sort of last-minute thing is far from the norm. Most of the time, I can see any crunch time scenarios coming months in advance because I know internal deal timelines.

[johndhi]

My in-house job is awesome. It's way, way, WAY better than my law firm job was.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks so much everyone! You've given me hope.

How senior were each of you when you entered?

[Anonymous User]

How do people go about finding in-house jobs. I apply to ones online and tell people I am looking. I get interviews, but have not been getting offers.

The clients I work for I either don't want to work for in-house or don't really hire in-house lawyers. So that's not a great route for me. I do a hodge podge of corporate work (M&A, venture, general corporate work).

[Anonymous User]

FAANG product counsel here after 5-6 years of big law. As a general rule of thumb, weekdays are similar in terms of hours, but weekends are almost always free. Comp is similar to mid-level associate, considering all the benefits, so there's that.
Hours are less stressful from an intellectual intensity angle. Days are almost entirely filled with meetings.

[Anonymous User]

I made the in-house transition a few months ago from biglaw M&A. Hours are pretty consistently 9-6 and I have yet to work on the weekend. As others have mentioned, there's a risk you'll get stuck churning out NDAs and MSAs if you pick the wrong role, but there's definitely 9-6 roles that include more strategic, corporate work as well. The GC often works on weekends, but nowhere near biglaw hours and it's not the same pressure as an M&A transaction.

Did you go to an M&A role in-house?

[Anonymous User]

In-house counsel at a large company. Niche practice. About $280K all-in, counting RSUs at base price (though will likely be worth more at vesting).

Hours are cushy. 4-5 hrs a day, and no evenings or weekends typically. Definitely don’t miss biglaw.

[bureaucranaut]

In-house counsel at a large company. Niche practice. About $280K all-in, counting RSUs at base price (though will likely be worth more at vesting).

Hours are cushy. 4-5 hrs a day, and no evenings or weekends typically. Definitely don’t miss biglaw.

Damn, that sounds like a sweet gig. Mind sharing a little more about type of company/role/prior experience?

[Anonymous User]

I made the in-house transition a few months ago from biglaw M&A. Hours are pretty consistently 9-6 and I have yet to work on the weekend. As others have mentioned, there's a risk you'll get stuck churning out NDAs and MSAs if you pick the wrong role, but there's definitely 9-6 roles that include more strategic, corporate work as well. The GC often works on weekends, but nowhere near biglaw hours and it's not the same pressure as an M&A transaction.

Did you go to an M&A role in-house?

Not an M&A role - we'd likely hire outside counsel to do M&A when/if that comes up, but the legal team would probably be involved in some capacity (the whole team is former biglaw M&A people). The legal team is pretty small, so I work on pretty much everything. Most common is reviewing any kind of contract that we might sign (customers and vendors mostly) and working with other groups on projects that need legal input (a lot with engineering, sales, finance and product). It's a pretty good balance between intellectually challenging projects and more straight-forward TV on the background work.

[lawlo]

In-house counsel at a large company. Niche practice. About $280K all-in, counting RSUs at base price (though will likely be worth more at vesting).

Hours are cushy. 4-5 hrs a day, and no evenings or weekends typically. Definitely don’t miss biglaw.

I want this niche and this job. Please give us some insight here!

[Anonymous User]

In-house counsel at a large company. Niche practice. About $280K all-in, counting RSUs at base price (though will likely be worth more at vesting).

Hours are cushy. 4-5 hrs a day, and no evenings or weekends typically. Definitely don’t miss biglaw.

I want this niche and this job. Please give us some insight here!

Not the OP, but make a little less in Privacy at a big company. I wouldn’t describe my job as 4-5 hours a day, but if I were actually billing time it would definitely not be more than 5 hours a day.