How much do you want WFH? Forum

[Lesion of Doom]

The opportunity to retain your NYC salary while moving to a much lower cost of living city would be an extreme enticement. You are talking about a massive effective pay raise in addition to other WFH perks.

[snehpets]

The opportunity to retain your NYC salary while moving to a much lower cost of living city would be an extreme enticement. You are talking about a massive effective pay raise in addition to other WFH perks.

I would definitely take a pay cut for permanent WFH. I would be pissed about it, but it would still be worth it to me.

[Anonymous User]

I would leave my V5 for any equal comp job if WFH was an option there and I couldn't get if I stayed. I would even take a decent pay cut. Might just be arguing for what I want, but mid to sr associates are more likely to be done with NYC and have kids/significant other they want to see more and have more than a studio apartment for. I think those who wouldn't mind going back to office are mostly single jrs? Shouldn't firms do what they need to in order to keep the experienced associates? Make WFH a thing or staff all your deals with 1st years!

[DworkinLikeMyDaddy]

I want unlimited WFH so that I can do at least a couple weeks a year in another locale, take snow days (already did this pre-COVID), under the weather days, etc. That being said, I will speak up for the oppressed minority and say that I want to be in the office 4-5 days a week soon. There's just something about coming off of the subway in a freshly starched shirt and tapping along in your overpriced loafers (being careful to avoid stray bodily fluids and unidentifiable ooze), smelling the pheromones and undeployed capital... Gives a sense of energy and importance to the work that is lost when you're sending emails in your jammies all day.

Also have to say that I think first years who stay in WFH mode indefinitely are missing out on a hallowed form of biglaw self-care -- slamming several drinks on a Friday evening and beeotching with your fellow first years about idiotic opposing counsel/local counsel/accountants/(quietly) partners/etc. This, plus many late nights in the office together, really helps facilitate bonding in a manner not dissimilar to fraternity hazing, trench warfare, etc. Which makes the work more fun when you have some good banter with your team. Also lead to my best friendships in biglaw, which is great to have when your civilian friends are tired of hearing about the woes of a biglawyer (also something something professional network, from the striver POV).

[Anonymous User]

There's just something about coming off of the subway in a freshly starched shirt and tapping along in your overpriced loafers (being careful to avoid stray bodily fluids and unidentifiable ooze), smelling the pheromones and undeployed capital... Gives a sense of energy and importance to the work that is lost when you're sending emails in your jammies all day.

Also have to say that I think first years who stay in WFH mode indefinitely are missing out on a hallowed form of biglaw self-care -- slamming several drinks on a Friday evening and beeotching with your fellow first years about idiotic opposing counsel/local counsel/accountants/(quietly) partners/etc. This, plus many late nights in the office together, really helps facilitate bonding in a manner not dissimilar to fraternity hazing, trench warfare, etc. Which makes the work more fun when you have some good banter with your team.

Please tell me that none of this is actually serious. That all sounds horrible, especially the bolded.

[lolwutpar]

There's just something about coming off of the subway in a freshly starched shirt and tapping along in your overpriced loafers (being careful to avoid stray bodily fluids and unidentifiable ooze), smelling the pheromones and undeployed capital... Gives a sense of energy and importance to the work that is lost when you're sending emails in your jammies all day.

Also have to say that I think first years who stay in WFH mode indefinitely are missing out on a hallowed form of biglaw self-care -- slamming several drinks on a Friday evening and beeotching with your fellow first years about idiotic opposing counsel/local counsel/accountants/(quietly) partners/etc. This, plus many late nights in the office together, really helps facilitate bonding in a manner not dissimilar to fraternity hazing, trench warfare, etc. Which makes the work more fun when you have some good banter with your team.

Please tell me that none of this is actually serious. That all sounds horrible, especially the bolded.

No, that's all right. It's by no means a perk of biglaw, but you do bond and form relationships when you're miserable together.

[blair.waldorf]

Maybe I’m a grandma but I have a couple of really close friends in my associate class, and I have no desire to ever slam back drinks on a Friday night with them or anyone else. Home and in bed by 9 pm, please.

[Anonymous User]

I want unlimited WFH so that I can do at least a couple weeks a year in another locale, take snow days (already did this pre-COVID), under the weather days, etc. That being said, I will speak up for the oppressed minority and say that I want to be in the office 4-5 days a week soon. There's just something about coming off of the subway in a freshly starched shirt and tapping along in your overpriced loafers (being careful to avoid stray bodily fluids and unidentifiable ooze), smelling the pheromones and undeployed capital... Gives a sense of energy and importance to the work that is lost when you're sending emails in your jammies all day.

Also have to say that I think first years who stay in WFH mode indefinitely are missing out on a hallowed form of biglaw self-care -- slamming several drinks on a Friday evening and beeotching with your fellow first years about idiotic opposing counsel/local counsel/accountants/(quietly) partners/etc. This, plus many late nights in the office together, really helps facilitate bonding in a manner not dissimilar to fraternity hazing, trench warfare, etc. Which makes the work more fun when you have some good banter with your team. Also lead to my best friendships in biglaw, which is great to have when your civilian friends are tired of hearing about the woes of a biglawyer (also something something professional network, from the striver POV).

What does the bolded mean? Pre-COVID, you worked remotely on snow days...or you took the day off entirely to go sledding, snow angels, etc.?

[Definitely Not North]

smelling the pheromones and undeployed capital

[DworkinLikeMyDaddy]

The above is gravely serious, though recognize that those with families or different lifestyle preferences may not feel the same way and that's fine. Just more fun to work with people you are your buds with rather than email addresses you are exchanging an endless stream of "thanks, see attached"s with (yes these people may be senior to you and you'll also have others on your team in transactional, e.g. specialists, who are closer to your year).

"Snow day" just means that you avoid commuting in the torrent. And sometimes found that these days were just a bit slower, but imagine that will no longer be the case with everyone comfortable in their WFH bunkers. At least can make some hot chocolate and bill in warmth.

[BankruptcyJesus]

smelling the pheromones and undeployed capital

Hahahaha lmfao

[feminist.supporter]

This, plus many late nights in the office together, really helps facilitate bonding in a manner not dissimilar to fraternity hazing, trench warfare, etc.

Questionable frat hazing, comparable perhaps; trench warfare, bunch of ordinary but valiant men in gross conditions firing under the constant fear of death, doubtful.

[Anonymous User]

I want at least two fully-blessed WFH days per week because that means I can live somewhere both a bit bigger and substantially cheaper without locking myself in to a bad commute.

Aside from that, and more importantly, my mental health has been so much better since WFH began. That is notwithstanding being in a group that was much busier because of the pandemic. My partner has noted I am much less grumpy. The ability to exercise or just take a lap around the block when I can, cook my own food, control the temperature in my work space, not wear uncomfortable clothes, etc. are all huge.

My firm/group was heavier than average on face time to begin with, and I have reason to think they may continue to be behind whatever “market” is on WFH once folks are vaccinated and comfortable returning. For my own peace of mind and mental health, I have decided that making sure I find myself in an environment that permits the level of WFH that I want will be a priority — whether that’s an awkward talk with partners asking for it, lateraling (but hopefully not, I generally like my job), or the natural course of how things go.

[Anonymous User]

I have never wanted to live outside of NY and would not like it if my employer chose to cut pay and move to permanent WFH.

[Anonymous User]

Aside from that, and more importantly, my mental health has been so much better since WFH began. That is notwithstanding being in a group that was much busier because of the pandemic. My partner has noted I am much less grumpy. The ability to exercise or just take a lap around the block when I can, cook my own food, control the temperature in my work space, not wear uncomfortable clothes, etc. are all huge.

My firm/group was heavier than average on face time to begin with, and I have reason to think they may continue to be behind whatever “market” is on WFH once folks are vaccinated and comfortable returning. For my own peace of mind and mental health, I have decided that making sure I find myself in an environment that permits the level of WFH that I want will be a priority — whether that’s an awkward talk with partners asking for it, lateraling (but hopefully not, I generally like my job), or the natural course of how things go.

100% agreed.

[Anonymous User]

I worked from home probably 2-3 weekdays a month pre-COVID and they were my favorite. Unlike some others, COVID WFH has not been good for my mental health as I live alone in an apartment and have health concerns that kept me more cautious than others.

Post-COVID will be a different story - I’d want to WFH as much as possible. But I also get that being in the office develops relationships. And once we start talking about multiple days of WFH, then it only makes sense that the days in the office will be staggered and office space reduced - so we won’t always be around each other anyway.

[Anonymous User]

If a firm offers full-time WFH, I will go there no questions asked.

Goodwin is currently offering a permanent WFH arrangement in which you will be paid full market and can work remotely from the following cities/states: Atlanta, Chicago, Miami, Seattle, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Austin, Houston, Dallas and Richmond. You will have to be barred in both the state you reside and in the state that holds the office you are affiliated with and you'll have to travel to your home office every 4-8 weeks (but they'll provide a travel budget for that).

There is no expectation that these associates will need to come back to the office post-pandemic and they'll otherwise be considered partner-track associates. Happy to chat if folks want to learn more.

What are the chances Goodwin eventually just stealths all these associates? There have been many discussions (including from current Goodwin associates) saying the firm panicked and stealthed a good number of associates at the beginning of covid.

Current Goodwin associate so yes that would be top of mind for me if I were one such person considering these fully remote roles. They are new and driven by a severe associate shortage after the stealth layoffs mentioned by the aforementioned poster. So I would be very worried about taking these and think about on how I would fare during the next downturn and plus it's yet to be seen how serious the firm is about these being partner track. Don't want to derail this thread more than that and just search if you are curious.

More to the direct point of the thread, I think there just has to be more tolerance among firms on the other side of this. It is clear enough that firms can be similarly productive and profitable (or more profitable) given WFH, as shown by many firms having PPP increases in the ~15% range. I think most firms will end up offering at least part time WFH. One question is how much those arrangements will be on paper, or whether they will actually be looked at as the same by the firms. Law firms are fairly conservative institutions - you could see firms looking at WFH associates differently from those that come in every day.

From a personal perspective WFH has been great and I'll only go back in when forced. Anecdotally it is popular among other associates and so I expect there will be demand from associates at various firms for WFH as a benefit.

[Anonymous User]

I think the big divide is with single people who like city life and people with families who want room to stretch.

Some of you mentioned wanting large houses. I grew up in a fairly large house (around 4K sq. ft.), and I hate that life. My last apartment was 430 sq. ft. and I still thought it was too large. I lived in a 180 sq. ft. place before and that was slightly too small.

Suburbia is terrible. You need a car, everything closes early, and there’s less to do.

I guess that’s why I have no problem working from the office. The apartment I’m moving into in the next few months is a 5 min walk from the office. I’ll be able to go home and walk my dog during any downtime and I’ll be able to work from the office whenever I need (even if it’s Saturday). I’m just a lot more productive in the office. I still billed over 2000 last year, but I took huge chunks off during the day, so my day stretched from like 8 am to 11 pm even on slower days. If I were in the office with no bed nearby, I’d just push through and get everything done and head out for a drink at like 7-8 instead.

But I know that if you have kids, schools and safety and space matter. I think associates should be given a choice of having a full-time office or working remotely (with hoteling).

Most of my friends at my firm are/were other younger, folks with no kids. A lot of parents wanted to GTFO and skipped lunch and social events and stuff just so they could make it home for a reasonable dinner time before putting their kids to bed at like 830 and jumping back online.

I think giving a choice of personal office (which younger people may be drawn to) v. WFH whenever you want with no personal office is the best solution.

[Anonymous User]

I think the big divide is with single people who like city life and people with families who want room to stretch.

Some of you mentioned wanting large houses. I grew up in a fairly large house (around 4K sq. ft.), and I hate that life. My last apartment was 430 sq. ft. and I still thought it was too large. I lived in a 180 sq. ft. place before and that was slightly too small.

Suburbia is terrible. You need a car, everything closes early, and there’s less to do.

I guess that’s why I have no problem working from the office. The apartment I’m moving into in the next few months is a 5 min walk from the office. I’ll be able to go home and walk my dog during any downtime and I’ll be able to work from the office whenever I need (even if it’s Saturday). I’m just a lot more productive in the office. I still billed over 2000 last year, but I took huge chunks off during the day, so my day stretched from like 8 am to 11 pm even on slower days. If I were in the office with no bed nearby, I’d just push through and get everything done and head out for a drink at like 7-8 instead.

But I know that if you have kids, schools and safety and space matter. I think associates should be given a choice of having a full-time office or working remotely (with hoteling).

Most of my friends at my firm are/were other younger, folks with no kids. A lot of parents wanted to GTFO and skipped lunch and social events and stuff just so they could make it home for a reasonable dinner time before putting their kids to bed at like 830 and jumping back online.

I think giving a choice of personal office (which younger people may be drawn to) v. WFH whenever you want with no personal office is the best solution.

Keep in mind there is a lot in between Manhattan density and suburban nightmare.

[goldenflash19]

Not everyone who would leave the major markets would go to the suburbs. I grew up in the country and miss a lot of things about it - bonfires in the summer, private pool, not having to fight for reservations at restaurants, etc. A few hours away from the city would be fine with me.

That said, I’d still immensely prefer living in the city to the suburbs. The suburbs are close enough to deal with city problems but far enough away that city perks aren’t readily accessible.

[Anonymous User]

I'm actually surprised by the stats. This shows a majority of people want to return to the office in some form or another (either a few days a week or every day). I thought most people would now want to return (except by choice on occasion). Well - to all of you who said you want to go back, trust me you'll regret it. You don't know what you've got till it's gone, and when you inevitably want to start a family (which most will inevitably want at some point in their lives), you'll really really regret it. When I went into the office every day I'd leave home at 8 a.m. and wouldn't get back some days until 1 a.m. Most days I didn't return home until after 8 p.m. If you have a life outside of the office (which hopefully you do), you really should not want to ever return to that lifestyle. For those of you who said you need it for social interactions or friends because you live alone - I think it's healthier to establish relationships with people outside of your work. Go meet people. I myself want to never be required to go back into the office again. Sorry people, that's the truth. I have a life and people I enjoy seeing on a daily basis who are not my colleagues.

[Anonymous User]

I think the big divide is with single people who like city life and people with families who want room to stretch.

Some of you mentioned wanting large houses. I grew up in a fairly large house (around 4K sq. ft.), and I hate that life. My last apartment was 430 sq. ft. and I still thought it was too large. I lived in a 180 sq. ft. place before and that was slightly too small.

Suburbia is terrible. You need a car, everything closes early, and there’s less to do.

As a (relatively) young person seems to have the opposite preferences, could you get more specific? Like what do you actually do in the city that you could not do in the suburbs? I also realize that I have experienced the best of both worlds to some extent by living in a city that is not dense at all (i.e. has tons of houses in the city itself).

[RaceJudicata]

I want to work from home forever. Genuinely do not feel a need to ever go back to the office (granted, I think my opinion would be different if I was a new associate or a lateral). I’d also like to work remotely from a different state; but firm hasn’t indicated whether it’s going to allow that option (due to tax and unauthorized practice of law issues).

#1 - Taxation is a ridiculous excuse. All big law firms use ADP and can handle state income tax and employment tax for all 50 states. Easy. It might be more expensive the more states you add to ADP, but it's not an issue whatsoever.

#2 - UPL doesn't make sense. The issue is what city is listed on the firm attorney profile. If you work and are barred in California, but want to live in Iowa, and your firm doesn't have an Iowa office, you cannot list Iowa as an office on your attorney profile. You cannot hold yourself out as practicing law in a jurisdiction in which you are not licensed. But there's nothing wrong with being barred in California, only listing California on your attorney profile, and working remotely out of Iowa.

Think about it. Otherwise attorneys could never work on all manner of vacations: on airplanes, on weekend trips, during entire summers, etc. I know plenty of *partners* who live in State 1, are only barred in State 2, the law firm has offices in States 1 and 2, and he or she lists an office and phone number in States 1 and 2.

They aren’t my excuses. Just what the firm has signaled as potential roadblocks to these types of arrangements. Granted, they haven’t made any final decisions as far as I know.

[AAPLTSLADIS]

I want to work from home forever. Genuinely do not feel a need to ever go back to the office (granted, I think my opinion would be different if I was a new associate or a lateral). I’d also like to work remotely from a different state; but firm hasn’t indicated whether it’s going to allow that option (due to tax and unauthorized practice of law issues).

#1 - Taxation is a ridiculous excuse. All big law firms use ADP and can handle state income tax and employment tax for all 50 states. Easy. It might be more expensive the more states you add to ADP, but it's not an issue whatsoever.

#2 - UPL doesn't make sense. The issue is what city is listed on the firm attorney profile. If you work and are barred in California, but want to live in Iowa, and your firm doesn't have an Iowa office, you cannot list Iowa as an office on your attorney profile. You cannot hold yourself out as practicing law in a jurisdiction in which you are not licensed. But there's nothing wrong with being barred in California, only listing California on your attorney profile, and working remotely out of Iowa.

Think about it. Otherwise attorneys could never work on all manner of vacations: on airplanes, on weekend trips, during entire summers, etc. I know plenty of *partners* who live in State 1, are only barred in State 2, the law firm has offices in States 1 and 2, and he or she lists an office and phone number in States 1 and 2.

They aren’t my excuses. Just what the firm has signaled as potential roadblocks to these types of arrangements. Granted, they haven’t made any final decisions as far as I know.

I completely get that they are not your excuses. Sorry if my reply came off too attack-y.

I think this is a mix of two things:

(1) that guy does not know what he is talking about, and the firm should hire someone who does and can correctly answer these "concerns"; and

(2) partners are hanging on to those excuses because they want to return to pre-covid in-office facetime. That's not gunna happen, partners! "You can't fix something that wants to stay broken."

[Anonymous User]

I think the big divide is with single people who like city life and people with families who want room to stretch.

Some of you mentioned wanting large houses. I grew up in a fairly large house (around 4K sq. ft.), and I hate that life. My last apartment was 430 sq. ft. and I still thought it was too large. I lived in a 180 sq. ft. place before and that was slightly too small.

Suburbia is terrible. You need a car, everything closes early, and there’s less to do.

As a (relatively) young person seems to have the opposite preferences, could you get more specific? Like what do you actually do in the city that you could not do in the suburbs? I also realize that I have experienced the best of both worlds to some extent by living in a city that is not dense at all (i.e. has tons of houses in the city itself).

A bit off topic, but I’ll bite. I’m young and prefer city life. Here are a few reasons.

While I like driving, cars and parking are generally a hassle. Walking more is also way healthier, and for me better mentally. Walking to stores, coffee shops, church, bars, etc. Americans generally don’t move throughout the day anywhere close to enough. Sure, you can go for walks in the suburbs but then that’s extra time and not part of your “existing”.

Dense cities have places that stay open late like coffee, bars, restaurants, random shops. If you like socializing after 8pm, you can’t really get that in suburban places outside of a few basic bars, top golf, or whatever. And it’ll be the same ones over and over. BUT I grant that things are improving and places all over are building their own hip walkable places. It’s just that there’s only one as opposed to dozens of neighborhoods in a city.

Dense city life attracts more artists and musician types. They play live music in parks or bars. Some people like that. A city will also have “shows” like plays, ballet, opera, symphony. I like that stuff. You don’t really get that to any meaningful degree outside of a handful of cities. Also museums, rotating exhibits, big city events like taste of Chicago, restaurant weeks, parades.

Dense cities are also generally more diverse. I like being in areas where there are people from all over. This adds to the feel and culture of a city. To me, it’s more vibrant, more perspectives. The food will also be better. There’s more competition and it has to be. I also think it’s just nice to be in crowded city streets with people out and about. Some people hate that and that’s fine too.