Dealing with first years who don't *get it* Forum

[Anonymous User]

I agree with the general sentiment that task-based constant calling for things that otherwise could be covered by email is just really annoying. It's also ridiculous to expect someone to answer you. It's even funnier when I get a call when our skype system literally can tell the person that I am in a call or meeting.

That said, I won't knock the value of talking on the phone entirely so long as its not non-stop and task-based. I am a 4th year now and my favorite senior associates to work for since I was a 1st year have always been the ones that like to have like a 15-20 minute chat once every so often about the different action items we want to accomplish and then just let me go forth and conquer from there. I much prefer that over 10 emails.

[Anonymous User]

I don't know you and maybe you're a sympathetic soul, but my overbearing-midlevel alarm bell is absolutely blaring.

You're having this problem with a *handful* of first-years? So...five different people don't respect you? Or they're acting bored as shit with what sounds like the boring shit you give them and you're surprised?

I watched a bunch of juniors turn into exactly the kind of midlevels they used to complain about. Mostly their problem was forgetting people who have only worked for a couple months don't know how to do anything, with a pinch of "you need to suffer like I suffered/continue to suffer" thrown in.

It's not that common to actually go to a partner and complain about non-substantive work assignments, but I've definitely heard the other stuff for juniors. "Your work product is shoddy/it looks like you don't care" is often a junior with little or no experience at some task being thrown to the wolves ("You've only done diligence? Okay take the first crack at the merger agreement. Here's some precedent. Don't worry, I'll totally be available to help.") and "you blew this deadline" is often (1) someone already overworked who doesn't feel like they can say no and doesn't understand how long something will take them or (2) some asshole who never says when they want something and declares the uncommunicated deadline "blown" when it doesn't come it by the time they expected.

Echoing others to say that unless you are really up against a deadline and something genuinely can't wait even a few minutes--and for the record, this is something that I would say is true for me maybe once a month--do not call people unprompted and get mad when they don't pick up. I spend most of my time actively in the middle of something. Send an email asking for a call back or better yet, set up a time if you need to. People who do this are effectively asking you to subordinate everything to them when they feel like it. Surprise, surprise: that attitude tends to create a ton of management issues.

When I was a junior I had a midlevel who complained about my work product more than once and then just...keep staffing me on her deals, six or seven more times. Not that there aren't good and bad juniors, but some people just mesh together better than others. I realize it's not always possible, but when I became a midlevel I wound up with a lot more flexibility in picking my juniors than people above me claimed they had. So now 90% of the time I just staff the ones I like (by request, not order) and don't bother the ones I don't. Sure, sometimes you get stuck with someone entirely phoning it in. But they're not all awful. If everyone smells like shit, it's probably stuck to your shoe.

Sincerely,
Your Fellow Midlevel

I'm a first year associate and the bolded is my day to day existence. A third year associate complained about me to the most senior associate on our team about my attitude, responsiveness, and timeliness. I have never missed a deadline in my life before big law, and I asked this associate numerous times for each assignment when they would like to have it by; they never answer, and then expect me to produce it at the drop of a hat (worst example I can think of is when I asked whether they wanted it a PDF or word doc 3x only to be ignored, but then asked the next day to make a pdf. I said I would, but didn't drop everything to do it since I had already asked 3x so I figured it wasn't high priority, and if it truly was high priority, the older associate could have pressed one button to make it a pdf). Also asked this associate questions for help on assignments regularly which were never answered. Honestly I feel like I have had to learn this job all on my own. I never talk to senior associates/partners and get any feedback. Now I'm not getting any work so I'm afraid I'm getting iced out. Just frustrating not to get any empathy, and for people to assume I'm not working when I'm busting my ass just as hard.

[jimmythecatdied6]

"Honestly I feel like I have had to learn this job all on my own."

I can't tell if this is a serious comment.

[beepboopbeep]

(worst example I can think of is when I asked whether they wanted it a PDF or word doc 3x only to be ignored, but then asked the next day to make a pdf. I said I would, but didn't drop everything to do it since I had already asked 3x so I figured it wasn't high priority, and if it truly was high priority, the older associate could have pressed one button to make it a pdf)

Is this a joke. Just make both. Don't ask your seniors 3x for something that takes you five seconds to just... do

[jimmythecatdied6]

(worst example I can think of is when I asked whether they wanted it a PDF or word doc 3x only to be ignored, but then asked the next day to make a pdf. I said I would, but didn't drop everything to do it since I had already asked 3x so I figured it wasn't high priority, and if it truly was high priority, the older associate could have pressed one button to make it a pdf)

Is this a joke. Just make both. Don't ask your seniors 3x for something that takes you five seconds to just... do

Agreed. The ANON poster sounds like he is incapable of exercising independent judgment. But this entire thread is filled with bizarre comments.... so, par for the course?

[Anonymous User]

(worst example I can think of is when I asked whether they wanted it a PDF or word doc 3x only to be ignored, but then asked the next day to make a pdf. I said I would, but didn't drop everything to do it since I had already asked 3x so I figured it wasn't high priority, and if it truly was high priority, the older associate could have pressed one button to make it a pdf)

Is this a joke. Just make both. Don't ask your seniors 3x for something that takes you five seconds to just... do

Agreed. The ANON poster sounds like he is incapable of exercising independent judgment. But this entire thread is filled with bizarre comments.... so, par for the course?

Is this a joke? That's not independent judgement, that's a lack of social cues. If you ask someone 3x for something and they respond each time (but don't say they want a pdf), it's reasonable to assume they must not want that pdf. And if they do really want it, the exalted second or third year associate can take the five seconds to make it a pdf. They aren't the partner, you can't expect a fellow junior associate to drop everything for you (especially if they are working on stuff for other people). Regardless, assuming first years just know that they should do this shit is the point of the thread.

[jotarokujo]

"Honestly I feel like I have had to learn this job all on my own."

I can't tell if this is a serious comment.

Honestly biglaw training is sometimes overrated. yeah for the most part, it's some of the best training around, that's why people do it. but sometimes, some associates get 0 feedback/training and it actually isn't good training.

[Anonymous User]

To the poster with the word/PDF issue, sorry everyone is dunking on you. While I agree that you should just send both (and also think that it’s usually better not to follow up to say that you’ll do something that will take 2 minutes - rather than just doing the thing - unless the reason you’re not doing it in the near future is because you literally can’t), I also did a lot of stuff like this when I was a first year, and I constantly encounter first years doing similar things now that I am more senior. One of my dumbest ones (anon so I don’t out myself with this story) was delaying sending a giant eBinder someone urgently needed because I somehow got it into my head that I needed to attach the binder from our network instead of just from my desktop, and our VPN was really shitty so it was taking like an actual hour to attach. I unfortunately felt the need to explain the issue to the mid level, who understandably was like WTF is wrong with you.

Tl;dr: it can be hard to pick up on all the rules, procedures, unspoken norms, etc. while you’re also trying to figure out how to do actual substantive work you’ve never done before, and it’s even harder when all of this is happening remotely. However, eventually it will be second-nature and you’ll be the one side-eyeing your junior associates for objectively unimportant infractions.

[Anonymous User]

To the poster with the word/PDF issue, sorry everyone is dunking on you. While I agree that you should just send both (and also think that it’s usually better not to follow up to say that you’ll do something that will take 2 minutes - rather than just doing the thing - unless the reason you’re not doing it in the near future is because you literally can’t), I also did a lot of stuff like this when I was a first year, and I constantly encounter first years doing similar things now that I am more senior. One of my dumbest ones (anon so I don’t out myself with this story) was delaying sending a giant eBinder someone urgently needed because I somehow got it into my head that I needed to attach the binder from our network instead of just from my desktop, and our VPN was really shitty so it was taking like an actual hour to attach. I unfortunately felt the need to explain the issue to the mid level, who understandably was like WTF is wrong with you.

Tl;dr: it can be hard to pick up on all the rules, procedures, unspoken norms, etc. while you’re also trying to figure out how to do actual substantive work you’ve never done before, and it’s even harder when all of this is happening remotely. However, eventually it will be second-nature and you’ll be the one side-eyeing your junior associates for objectively unimportant infractions.

This is great advice, your explanation makes a lot of sense

[beepboopbeep]

(worst example I can think of is when I asked whether they wanted it a PDF or word doc 3x only to be ignored, but then asked the next day to make a pdf. I said I would, but didn't drop everything to do it since I had already asked 3x so I figured it wasn't high priority, and if it truly was high priority, the older associate could have pressed one button to make it a pdf)

Is this a joke. Just make both. Don't ask your seniors 3x for something that takes you five seconds to just... do

Agreed. The ANON poster sounds like he is incapable of exercising independent judgment. But this entire thread is filled with bizarre comments.... so, par for the course?

Is this a joke? That's not independent judgement, that's a lack of social cues. If you ask someone 3x for something and they respond each time (but don't say they want a pdf), it's reasonable to assume they must not want that pdf. And if they do really want it, the exalted second or third year associate can take the five seconds to make it a pdf. They aren't the partner, you can't expect a fellow junior associate to drop everything for you (especially if they are working on stuff for other people). Regardless, assuming first years just know that they should do this shit is the point of the thread.

The point is that you shouldn't ask 3x in the first place when it will take the more senior (even if only by two years) associate longer to read your email and respond than for you to just do the thing in the first place. This sort of thing kinda IS just basic deduction for junior associates from the first principle of "it's my job right now to make things easier for people I report to." Which isn't to say that everyone gets it, just that in general, that's the expectation.

No doubt some midlevels and seniors are arrogant, "exalted," whatever. That's something I've tried very hard to avoid as I've moved from being a junior to a midlevel. But this would bug even me. Otherwise agreed with ebinder anon.

[Anonymous User]

To the anon with the PDF issue, just a few thoughts below.

If you had an inkling that the associate might want a PDF, just prepare the PDF and send it. It sucks that they didn't answer you, but don't email them three times asking whether you should do a 10-second task that doesn't inconvenience you but could help them. The next day when they ask for the PDF, just take the 10 seconds to make one rather than making a big deal about having to "drop everything" and if it was "high priority, the older associate could have pressed one button to make it a PDF." That's a bad attitude to have in your position because, frankly, you don't have any particular skill or legal knowledge that is valuable to the firm yet you are paid a shitload of money. In exchange, you should be doing what you can to learn and help other attorneys in your group with work that isn't an efficient use of their time (e.g., preparing PDFs).

If the assigning attorney isn't helpful with questions you may have, try to ask someone else in the group. Some attorneys are bad at training/mentoring and others are great. I'm sure you have other resources you can use.

Maybe this is exacerbated by COVID, but why do you never talk to senior associates/partners? If you don't feel like you know them, you can try to get to know them a little better. Then they might think of you for the next assignment, which could solve your lack of work issue. If instead you meant that you're not getting any feedback from them, ask yourself why you need that feedback. For example, did you run a redline of the finished work product against your draft and not understand why they did something? Why not specifically ask them why they did 'x' or 'y' the next time you talk to them? Most attorneys are not great at feedback either, but it helps if you try to understand on your own why they changed something and follow up with them if unclear.

[nixy]

"Honestly I feel like I have had to learn this job all on my own."

I can't tell if this is a serious comment.

Honestly biglaw training is sometimes overrated. yeah for the most part, it's some of the best training around, that's why people do it. but sometimes, some associates get 0 feedback/training and it actually isn't good training.

I’m pretty sure training comes from doing the job, not really from any kind of separate training sessions (though I realize that being new during WFH probably does make it harder to suss out things that would probably happen a little more organically if everyone were in the office).

[lolwutpar]

Yes, the best training is by doing, but having a midlevel or senior sit you down and explain not only the assignment, but *why* you do things is very valuable. And, unfortunately, rare.

[Anonymous User]

To the anon with the PDF issue, just a few thoughts below.

If you had an inkling that the associate might want a PDF, just prepare the PDF and send it. It sucks that they didn't answer you, but don't email them three times asking whether you should do a 10-second task that doesn't inconvenience you but could help them. The next day when they ask for the PDF, just take the 10 seconds to make one rather than making a big deal about having to "drop everything" and if it was "high priority, the older associate could have pressed one button to make it a PDF." That's a bad attitude to have in your position because, frankly, you don't have any particular skill or legal knowledge that is valuable to the firm yet you are paid a shitload of money. In exchange, you should be doing what you can to learn and help other attorneys in your group with work that isn't an efficient use of their time (e.g., preparing PDFs).

If the assigning attorney isn't helpful with questions you may have, try to ask someone else in the group. Some attorneys are bad at training/mentoring and others are great. I'm sure you have other resources you can use.

Maybe this is exacerbated by COVID, but why do you never talk to senior associates/partners? If you don't feel like you know them, you can try to get to know them a little better. Then they might think of you for the next assignment, which could solve your lack of work issue. If instead you meant that you're not getting any feedback from them, ask yourself why you need that feedback. For example, did you run a redline of the finished work product against your draft and not understand why they did something? Why not specifically ask them why they did 'x' or 'y' the next time you talk to them? Most attorneys are not great at feedback either, but it helps if you try to understand on your own why they changed something and follow up with them if unclear.

Just to clarify, they did answer, which is why I thought the PDF was unnecessary in the first place. What happened is they asked for it the next day and then expected me to send it that very moment. I understand how I could have approached this differently though, the responses have been helpful.

[bajablast]

(worst example I can think of is when I asked whether they wanted it a PDF or word doc 3x only to be ignored, but then asked the next day to make a pdf. I said I would, but didn't drop everything to do it since I had already asked 3x so I figured it wasn't high priority, and if it truly was high priority, the older associate could have pressed one button to make it a pdf)

Is this a joke. Just make both. Don't ask your seniors 3x for something that takes you five seconds to just... do

Agreed. The ANON poster sounds like he is incapable of exercising independent judgment. But this entire thread is filled with bizarre comments.... so, par for the course?

Is this a joke? That's not independent judgement, that's a lack of social cues. If you ask someone 3x for something and they respond each time (but don't say they want a pdf), it's reasonable to assume they must not want that pdf. And if they do really want it, the exalted second or third year associate can take the five seconds to make it a pdf. They aren't the partner, you can't expect a fellow junior associate to drop everything for you (especially if they are working on stuff for other people). Regardless, assuming first years just know that they should do this shit is the point of the thread.

The point is that you shouldn't ask 3x in the first place when it will take the more senior (even if only by two years) associate longer to read your email and respond than for you to just do the thing in the first place. This sort of thing kinda IS just basic deduction for junior associates from the first principle of "it's my job right now to make things easier for people I report to." Which isn't to say that everyone gets it, just that in general, that's the expectation.

No doubt some midlevels and seniors are arrogant, "exalted," whatever. That's something I've tried very hard to avoid as I've moved from being a junior to a midlevel. But this would bug even me. Otherwise agreed with ebinder anon.

Pro tip - don't ask, just send a word and pdf version

[jotarokujo]

i think if you ask when a deadline is and the senior associate doesn't respond, that means that it's not urgent. that's the only reasonable way to interpret that silence

i'll also say it's a really hard line to draw. usually, yeah you should take initiative and use your own reasoning to try to create additional value, like in this pdf/word situation. but there are definitely seniors who find that juniors sometimes take too much initiative/do too much improvisation. gotta adapt to whoever you're dealing with. sounds like your seniors prefer you to take more initiative /be more innovative

[Anonymous User]

"Honestly I feel like I have had to learn this job all on my own."

I can't tell if this is a serious comment.

Honestly biglaw training is sometimes overrated. yeah for the most part, it's some of the best training around, that's why people do it. but sometimes, some associates get 0 feedback/training and it actually isn't good training.

I have to imagine that first year associates who started remotely have received even less training than those who have come before them. Having to learn to do this job remotely without any guidance other than a manual is a challenge a lot of other associates are not understanding. Even things that are basic like knowing where a button is can take substantially more time than in the office. Sure, you can take the initiative to call the partner/associates, but can you really when they have made it clear they are so busy that they can't respond to your emails?