Public Service Litigator AMA Forum

[Anonymous User]

I'm a public service litigator in the 5-10 years of experience range. Willing to take questions on litigation culture in general, public service jobs, plaintiff-side work, PSLF, or anything else you can think of.

[MarxJackson]

1. How difficult were the first couple of years?

2. How often are you in court?

3. Do you think PSLF is at a spot now where it can be counted on if you take all the reasonable steps?

4. What are your hours like?

[CanadianWolf]

What is a "Public Service Litigator" ?

[wwwcol]

What is a "Public Service Litigator" ?

for real. This seems like a crazy and comical way to say plaintiff’s lawyer

[jotarokujo]

thanks for doing this AMA. a lot of folks on this site are looking to get out of biglaw into a position like this, these AMAs can actually offer practical advice

[Anonymous User]

1. How difficult were the first couple of years?

2. How often are you in court?

3. Do you think PSLF is at a spot now where it can be counted on if you take all the reasonable steps?

4. What are your hours like?

Sorry for the delayed response. I lost track of this thread because it didn't get any replies for a while.

1. With the work I do, I am constantly litigating against Biglaw firms, so the standards are extremely high--even higher than the defense attorneys I go against every day, since if we lose, it's a big deal to the clients, but defense attorneys bill by the hour, so at least they get paid either way. Believe me, I've seen their final work product, and I'd get reamed out for making the same mistakes even on my first draft that they do on final drafts sent to opposing counsel. My manager is a perfectionist and a micromanager all at once. Don't think that public interest means a more laid back atmosphere, because it doesn't. With that said, my total hours per week are much, much better than Biglaw. Although any litigator can experience 80-hour work weeks (and I have experienced a few), it is much more common for me to put in 40 hours, and then log off early Friday evening without so much as checking my e-mail on Saturday/Sunday. I usually do log in at least once on Sunday before the week starts, to make sure I'm not ignoring any fire drills that may have popped up, but that's usually just to make me feel better. Emergencies just don't happen over the weekend when the courts are not even open. If I do work on a weekend, it's usually something like deposition prep that a client can't do during the week because of their job.

The main takeaway is that all litigation is stressful. It's just the nature of the beast. There's high stakes, and your job is about directly competing with an adversary, so any mistake you might make is likely to get blown out of proportion. With that said, it's the kind of stress I can deal with--I like the competition, and I almost always win in the end, so I tend to worry a bit less than others in this field. You can do your due dilligence without turning yourself neurotic, which is a concept a lot of lawyers even after 20 years in the profession seem to have no grasp of. I also take a lot of satisfaction from taking down the big guys. It's almost more rewarding than money. Most of your friends seem to admire you more if you're working in the public interest vs. defending Fortune 500 companies but making a fortune. But maybe those are just the people I hang out with. I don't blame anyone working in Biglaw for the paycheck. I might try and do Biglaw after this once my loans are forgiven so I can actually pocket the money instead of throwing it into the student loan void. That way, if the hours/culture got to be too abrasive, I'd feel no need to subject myself to that kind of torture for any longer than I can bear. Just 2 years there with that kind of salary and no loans could really put me in great financial shape.

2. In my cases, I spend far more time in discovery and/or drafting pleadings than being in court. In 5 years, I have yet to do an actual trial--everything has settled for a reasonable amount pre-trial. If I have hearings on motions, etc., they were mostly telephonic before COVID hit, and now they are all either telephonic or virtual through Zoom. Even litigators spend 95% of their time behind a desk doing research and drafting documents/letters. Unless you're in a personal injury mill where the business model is just to churn and burn a case for every single client that calls up for whatever chump change you can get. For most cases filed in court, discovery eats up 60% of your time or more, and most of the rest is spent on front-loading your factual and legal research to make sure you're not filing a loser of a case, drafting the pleadings to account for such, etc.

3. PSLF is definitely in a better spot than it was 5 years ago. The loan servicers have really been reined in. They update you in real time how many qualifying payments you have made, and you can get your payments certified on a yearly basis. That way, you don't have to work 10 years and guess as to whether they will deny you based on some technicality. The bonus is that, during this student loan payment pause, I don't have to make payments, and yet every month still counts toward loan forgiveness. I haven't made a PSLF payment since February 2020, and I've gotten credit for every month this last year, and have gotten these months certified as well. I've triple checked that I'm in the proper loan repayment plan, and there's no doubt that I work for a qualifying employer. My school's CSO also checked my payment plan, etc. to make sure I am going to qualify.

4. Hours were discussed above.

Overall, I think it's a great job for me. I like the competitive and strategic nature of litigation, and the high stakes make it interesting. And I love telling war stories about outsmarting/embarrassing Biglaw partners or the corporate executives they represent when I win. I think I'd be totally bored in a policy/advisory/transactional position. And yet I get time to myself to unwind and get some sleep. It's a good balance overall.

[Anonymous User]

What is a "Public Service Litigator" ?

for real. This seems like a crazy and comical way to say plaintiff’s lawyer

It is a way to say "plaintiff's lawyer," but it's not crazy and comical. I wanted to indicate that I'm also available to answer questions about PSLF, as well, which most plaintiff's lawyers don't actually get to take advantage of.

[Lacepiece23]

What is a "Public Service Litigator" ?

for real. This seems like a crazy and comical way to say plaintiff’s lawyer

It is a way to say "plaintiff's lawyer," but it's not crazy and comical. I wanted to indicate that I'm also available to answer questions about PSLF, as well, which most plaintiff's lawyers don't actually get to take advantage of.

I’m a newly-turned plaintiffs lawyer and I did biglaw before this. Why not become a plaintiffs lawyer after this? I know a ton making more money than biglaw.

[Anonymous User]

What is a "Public Service Litigator" ?

for real. This seems like a crazy and comical way to say plaintiff’s lawyer

It is a way to say "plaintiff's lawyer," but it's not crazy and comical. I wanted to indicate that I'm also available to answer questions about PSLF, as well, which most plaintiff's lawyers don't actually get to take advantage of.

I’m a newly-turned plaintiffs lawyer and I did biglaw before this. Why not become a plaintiffs lawyer after this? I know a ton making more money than biglaw.

That's a good question. When I said I "might" do biglaw after this, I really meant "might," because starting my own shop has a ton of appeal to me. I am the type of very networky, glad-hander that would be able to drum up a bunch of business quickly as a private plaintiff's attorney. It's one of the main reasons I have the job I have today.

In fact, before I got the job I have now, I pretty much ran my own plaintiff's practice out of another attorney's office almost straight out of law school. By the start of my third year, I was making well into six figures--and I got to go to work in shorts most of the time, and had no boss to micromanage me. However, the pay is highly irregular, so financially, it's hard to budget for anything, since most of your pay is on contingency, and you never know when a case is going to settle. Also, because you're doing contingency pay, the first year and a half are extremely lean. The reason I may do a few years of Biglaw after this would be to provide a financial cushion for the lean years starting up a plaintiff's practice.

I sometimes question why I left to take this job, but I worked hard (like 80 hours a week) for that private practice money, and I kind of felt like I was getting lucky with some of the cases I was getting, and that my luck wouldn't continue. I wanted to convert my success with that into a guaranteed salary. Plus, the thought of doing all that work and having to dump literally all of it into student loan repayment was especially daunting. I decided this was the safe route. It's not a bad option. I have great benefits, and my pay is still six figures, and my student loan debt will be taken care of (unless Betsy DeVos somehow is appointed Secretary of Education again sometime down the road...lol). Also, I made most of my private practice money right as my old job ended and this one began, so instead of dumping all that into student loan debt, I got to keep most of it and set it aside for a down payment on a house and a stock fund.

I think most people who try to go solo really struggle, though. The skills to be a good attorney are very different than the skills it takes to build and manage a successful business. I think most stats show that your average solo makes something like $50k per year. As for entering into a private plaintiff's firm as an associate, well...quite a few of those firms treat their associates similar to Biglaw associates, except for significantly less money, so I have no interest in doing that. The best route seems to be to build your own practice to show you can bring in clients first, and then maybe partner with an already established plantiff's firm to come in as a lateral partner.

[Lacepiece23]

What is a "Public Service Litigator" ?

for real. This seems like a crazy and comical way to say plaintiff’s lawyer

It is a way to say "plaintiff's lawyer," but it's not crazy and comical. I wanted to indicate that I'm also available to answer questions about PSLF, as well, which most plaintiff's lawyers don't actually get to take advantage of.

I’m a newly-turned plaintiffs lawyer and I did biglaw before this. Why not become a plaintiffs lawyer after this? I know a ton making more money than biglaw.

That's a good question. When I said I "might" do biglaw after this, I really meant "might," because starting my own shop has a ton of appeal to me. I am the type of very networky, glad-hander that would be able to drum up a bunch of business quickly as a private plaintiff's attorney. It's one of the main reasons I have the job I have today.

In fact, before I got the job I have now, I pretty much ran my own plaintiff's practice out of another attorney's office almost straight out of law school. By the start of my third year, I was making well into six figures--and I got to go to work in shorts most of the time, and had no boss to micromanage me. However, the pay is highly irregular, so financially, it's hard to budget for anything, since most of your pay is on contingency, and you never know when a case is going to settle. Also, because you're doing contingency pay, the first year and a half are extremely lean. The reason I may do a few years of Biglaw after this would be to provide a financial cushion for the lean years starting up a plaintiff's practice.

I sometimes question why I left to take this job, but I worked hard (like 80 hours a week) for that private practice money, and I kind of felt like I was getting lucky with some of the cases I was getting, and that my luck wouldn't continue. I wanted to convert my success with that into a guaranteed salary. Plus, the thought of doing all that work and having to dump literally all of it into student loan repayment was especially daunting. I decided this was the safe route. It's not a bad option. I have great benefits, and my pay is still six figures, and my student loan debt will be taken care of (unless Betsy DeVos somehow is appointed Secretary of Education again sometime down the road...lol). Also, I made most of my private practice money right as my old job ended and this one began, so instead of dumping all that into student loan debt, I got to keep most of it and set it aside for a down payment on a house and a stock fund.

I think most people who try to go solo really struggle, though. The skills to be a good attorney are very different than the skills it takes to build and manage a successful business. I think most stats show that your average solo makes something like $50k per year. As for entering into a private plaintiff's firm as an associate, well...quite a few of those firms treat their associates similar to Biglaw associates, except for significantly less money, so I have no interest in doing that. The best route seems to be to build your own practice to show you can bring in clients first, and then maybe partner with an already established plantiff's firm to come in as a lateral partner.

That’s all fair enough. I think there is a misconception that solos struggle. My situation differs than a lot of people, but I have cases coming in everyday and I haven’t spent any money on marketing. It’s only been two months.

I see the 50k number thrown out a lot of places but also have seen 190k for solos, which seems more in line with the people I talk to.

Agree with your point on a plaintiffs firm, subject to a few very small exceptions, that was a hard pass for me.

But you already have experience doing it and have a good thing set up. Let me know if you ever want to trade notes.

[CanadianWolf]

I still do not understand what you mean by the title of "Public Service Litigator".

If you are a plaintiff's attorney, then do you take or consider taking any type of case that walks through the door ?

Can you share specifics about what types of cases you have handled ?

Thank you in advance.

FWIW I am not an inexperienced poster.

[CanadianWolf]

Some specifics might be helpful in generating questions :

Are you representing unsecured debtors and/or individuals facing foreclosure ?

Toxic tort type actions ?

Only civil matters ?

Are you filing in federal courts or in state courts or both ?

Are you proceeding under statutes which authorize an award of attorney's fees ?

[Anonymous User]

Some specifics might be helpful in generating questions :

Are you representing unsecured debtors and/or individuals facing foreclosure ?

Toxic tort type actions ?

Only civil matters ?

Are you filing in federal courts or in state courts or both ?

Are you proceeding under statutes which authorize an award of attorney's fees ?

By "public service," I mean I work for a government/non-profit (that incidentally triggers PSLF loan forgiveness). Sorry if that was not clear. I may be assuming that people know that just because I deal a lot with PSLF myself. My org has a specific focus for enforcement, so we do not just take any client that walks in the door.

I only do civil matters. I do proceed under statutes that normally authorize an award of attorney's fees for prevailing plaintiffs, but my organization is exempt from receiving fee shifting since it is publicly funded. I'm in federal court exclusively.

[CanadianWolf]

Thank you for your response.

Do you use expert witnesses ?

[Anonymous User]

Thank you for your response.

Do you use expert witnesses ?

Occasionally, but it's usually not necessary.

[CanadianWolf]

I find this thread a bit frustrating because I do not know in what area of law the OP practices. Makes it difficult to ask meaningful questions, in my opinion. I do not understand the need for concealing the practice area.

[Anonymous User]

Sorry. I am like a management witness at a deposition in that it's like pulling teeth extracting information from me.

I am in labor/employment/civil rights law.

[CanadianWolf]

Interesting. Thanks for the reply. Makes sense now. I know lots of folks on the other side. Two are the name partners of a large management defense firm in employment matters and the other was a partner in a major management firm before being sent to prison for life (the case appears on CNN frequently).

My initial reaction is that your thought of practicing biglaw in the future may be possible if you are a government employee in an office that investigates and sometimes prosecutes claims of discrimination or unfair labor practices, but not if you are a private practitioner as it would be like hiring a former prosecutor to work in a public defender's office.