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Academic Hiring Prospects for Non-T14?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:52 am

It seems like academia is completely saturated with professors with HYSCCN degrees, not even the full range of T14. The majority of non-T14 professors I've seen were T1 grads hired by their alma maters.

What exactly are job prospects like for academia if you're from a T1 school outside of T14? What kinds of schools could you teach at & is there a huge difference in quality of life, compensation, student body, resource for research, etc.?

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Re: Academic Hiring Prospects for Non-T14?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:39 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:52 am
It seems like academia is completely saturated with professors with HYSCCN degrees, not even the full range of T14. The majority of non-T14 professors I've seen were T1 grads hired by their alma maters.

What exactly are job prospects like for academia if you're from a T1 school outside of T14? What kinds of schools could you teach at & is there a huge difference in quality of life, compensation, student body, resource for research, etc.?
Almost non-existent. There is a reason why for academia everyone stresses Yale, even from Yale academia is unlikely. However, to answer your question, obviously the schools you are able to teach at are going to be slightly different, but not enough to really warrant attention. The main thing is just getting into academia, so I would worry more about that from a publication and networking standpoint because it is going to be extremely difficult

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Re: Academic Hiring Prospects for Non-T14?

Post by nixy » Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:50 am

Yeah, there are differences between schools in terms of desirability of location (you have to be willing to go anywhere), resources (look for rich private institutions rather than public ones in states that don’t support higher ed, which is unfortunately most of them these days!), and student body (there will be some smart kids everywhere, but because of the sorting by UGPA/LSAT the student body at, say, Cal Western is going to be different from, say, Harvard). I’m not sure whether there are significant differences in number of classes taught (this is the big thing for non-legal academia), but there could be. But I absolutely agree with anon above that these are going to be relatively marginal differences, compared to the issue of getting into academia in the first place.

If you can produce well-respected enough scholarship, I think that can get you into academia - but the system is such that the opportunities to create well-respected scholarship are clustered at the top schools as well. In theory a truly brilliant person can break through from anywhere (I remember on law review fighting for and not getting an amazing article by someone from a very very ordinary law school who was I think adjuncting and trying to break into full-time academia - I could see them doing so, but they were sort of the exception that proves the rule), but it doesn’t happen a lot. Because, too, law reviews don’t (generally) use blind review (maybe some? But it’s uncommon) and having certain names associated with your work definitely influences people. I mean, we rejected articles from plenty of fancy people, but pedigree still has an effect on people.

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Re: Academic Hiring Prospects for Non-T14?

Post by Jchance » Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:03 pm

Re # of classes taught, from what I've read, teaching at a T1 school means teaching 1-2 classes per semester because the main focus is on research + publications. Teaching outside of T1 schools means teaching 5-6 classes per semester because the main focus is on teaching--research and publications are just nice to have.

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Re: Academic Hiring Prospects for Non-T14?

Post by crazywafflez » Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:27 pm

Specialize, publish a lot as best you can. Good luck getting tenure, it is really hard, even for Y/H/S grads/academics.

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Re: Academic Hiring Prospects for Non-T14?

Post by namefromplace » Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:57 pm

I'll also throw in that pretty much every non-T14 grad professor I have seen or interacted with had either a circuit court clerkship or are an adjunct/teaching professor.

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Re: Academic Hiring Prospects for Non-T14?

Post by nixy » Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:19 pm

Jchance wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:03 pm
Re # of classes taught, from what I've read, teaching at a T1 school means teaching 1-2 classes per semester because the main focus is on research + publications. Teaching outside of T1 schools means teaching 5-6 classes per semester because the main focus is on teaching--research and publications are just nice to have.
I don't think it's quite that stark - I don't know of any law school that has tenure-track faculty teaching 5-6 courses a semester. (I just looked at Cal Western, for instance, and they seem to be mostly 2 courses, 2-3 sections (that is, some have two courses, one section each, but some seem to have 2 sections of one course and one section of another)). Though I agree that generally, as you go down the rankings, you will have more teaching responsibilities.

I also suspect even bottom of the barrel law schools are going to require research and publications from doctrinal tenure-track faculty. I don't think the standard teaching model (huge lecture with one exam at the end) is any different at lower-ranked schools, and it's a model that minimizes faculty time. Those publications are probably just going to be in lower-ranked law reviews than top school faculty.

(Legal writing/clinical profs are very different, of course.)

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Re: Academic Hiring Prospects for Non-T14?

Post by 2013 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:10 pm

nixy wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:19 pm
Jchance wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:03 pm
Re # of classes taught, from what I've read, teaching at a T1 school means teaching 1-2 classes per semester because the main focus is on research + publications. Teaching outside of T1 schools means teaching 5-6 classes per semester because the main focus is on teaching--research and publications are just nice to have.
I don't think it's quite that stark - I don't know of any law school that has tenure-track faculty teaching 5-6 courses a semester. (I just looked at Cal Western, for instance, and they seem to be mostly 2 courses, 2-3 sections (that is, some have two courses, one section each, but some seem to have 2 sections of one course and one section of another)). Though I agree that generally, as you go down the rankings, you will have more teaching responsibilities.

I also suspect even bottom of the barrel law schools are going to require research and publications from doctrinal tenure-track faculty. I don't think the standard teaching model (huge lecture with one exam at the end) is any different at lower-ranked schools, and it's a model that minimizes faculty time. Those publications are probably just going to be in lower-ranked law reviews than top school faculty.

(Legal writing/clinical profs are very different, of course.)
But on the other end, you have professors who teach 1 class an entire academic year.

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Re: Academic Hiring Prospects for Non-T14?

Post by Jchance » Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:21 pm

nixy wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:19 pm
Jchance wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:03 pm
Re # of classes taught, from what I've read, teaching at a T1 school means teaching 1-2 classes per semester because the main focus is on research + publications. Teaching outside of T1 schools means teaching 5-6 classes per semester because the main focus is on teaching--research and publications are just nice to have.
I don't think it's quite that stark - I don't know of any law school that has tenure-track faculty teaching 5-6 courses a semester. (I just looked at Cal Western, for instance, and they seem to be mostly 2 courses, 2-3 sections (that is, some have two courses, one section each, but some seem to have 2 sections of one course and one section of another)). Though I agree that generally, as you go down the rankings, you will have more teaching responsibilities.

I also suspect even bottom of the barrel law schools are going to require research and publications from doctrinal tenure-track faculty. I don't think the standard teaching model (huge lecture with one exam at the end) is any different at lower-ranked schools, and it's a model that minimizes faculty time. Those publications are probably just going to be in lower-ranked law reviews than top school faculty.

(Legal writing/clinical profs are very different, of course.)
Law schools offer 2L/3L classes, too. A prof can (and is required to) teach both 1L and 2L/3L classes.

If you don't believe me, reach out to T3 profs and ask about their teaching loads.

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Re: Academic Hiring Prospects for Non-T14?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:35 pm

OP here. Thank you so much for your answers!

Follow-up question: if you're not going straight into academia after graduation but after many years of practice, does the prestige of your employment (govt. agency, firm, etc.) help offset not being from HYS, and if so, how much? How about having additional degrees, like Ph.D., M.D., etc.?

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Re: Academic Hiring Prospects for Non-T14?

Post by stoopkid13 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:35 pm
OP here. Thank you so much for your answers!

Follow-up question: if you're not going straight into academia after graduation but after many years of practice, does the prestige of your employment (govt. agency, firm, etc.) help offset not being from HYS, and if so, how much? How about having additional degrees, like Ph.D., M.D., etc.?
Ph.D.s have an appreciable bump, but not other advanced degrees. Also bumps for COA clerkships and fellowships. Even from Yale, you are not going to get a tenure track position without one of the three. Most hires have at least two.

Also, for whatever reason, higher ranked schools tend to favor applicants with fewer years of experience, whereas lower ranked schools hire more experienced hires (10+ years).

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Re: Academic Hiring Prospects for Non-T14?

Post by Jchance » Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:35 pm
OP here. Thank you so much for your answers!

Follow-up question: if you're not going straight into academia after graduation but after many years of practice, does the prestige of your employment (govt. agency, firm, etc.) help offset not being from HYS, and if so, how much? How about having additional degrees, like Ph.D., M.D., etc.?
No, prestige of employment (except for SCOTUS clerk) does not matter, but is presumed. To be a competitive, serious candidate, you'd want a resume with as many gold stars as possible, including employment at high-end places.

PhD in econ could give you a small boost, especially if it's also a competitive PhD program (think top 6 or at least top 20). Otherwise, no.

Generally, all of these can be overcome with a strong publication record. (Imagine a T100 grad with multiple t10 flagship placements. See, e.g., https://www.northeastern.edu/law/facult ... rtzog.html.) Credentials speak to your potential of future high-end publications, which can be rebutted by actual results of high-end publications if your credentials are not up to par.

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Re: Academic Hiring Prospects for Non-T14?

Post by nixy » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:02 pm

2013 wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:10 pm
But on the other end, you have professors who teach 1 class an entire academic year.
Oh, sure, there are better and worse situations. Top schools will be definitely be cushier.
Jchance wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:21 pm
Law schools offer 2L/3L classes, too. A prof can (and is required to) teach both 1L and 2L/3L classes.

If you don't believe me, reach out to T3 profs and ask about their teaching loads.
Yes, I was including 2L and 3L classes in that calculus (Cal Western).

I’ve just poked around about this before and haven’t seen people teaching 5-6 classes per semester. I agree that the teaching load at a T3 is going to be tougher than at elite schools, but 5-6 classes a semester is a lot. I can’t say there isn’t any small, poor law school that requires that, but I haven’t seen it as a common practice. 5-6 classes a year, definitely (maybe up to 8). Just not 5-6 a semester. (Again, I’m talking about doctrinal tenure-track profs.)

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Re: Academic Hiring Prospects for Non-T14?

Post by stoopkid13 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:07 pm

Jchance wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:53 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:35 pm
OP here. Thank you so much for your answers!

Follow-up question: if you're not going straight into academia after graduation but after many years of practice, does the prestige of your employment (govt. agency, firm, etc.) help offset not being from HYS, and if so, how much? How about having additional degrees, like Ph.D., M.D., etc.?
No, prestige of employment (except for SCOTUS clerk) does not matter, but is presumed. To be a competitive, serious candidate, you'd want a resume with as many gold stars as possible, including employment at high-end places.

PhD in econ could give you a small boost, especially if it's also a competitive PhD program (think top 6 or at least top 20). Otherwise, no.

Generally, all of these can be overcome with a strong publication record. (Imagine a T100 grad with t10 flagship placement. See, e.g., https://www.northeastern.edu/law/facult ... rtzog.html.) Credentials speak to your potential of future high-end publications, which can be rebutted by actual results of high-end publications if your credentials are not up to par.
I'm not sure the field of study matters all that much. Econ Ph.D.s may be more likely to pursue legal academia than a comparative literature Ph.D., but im not sure a comp lit Ph.D. would be relatively disadvantaged. Certainly econ Ph.D.s are not the most common Ph.D. among new teaching hires (that would be Law, followed by Poli Sci), nor even that common to begin with.

Eta: I'm also not sure the school is what makes a Ph.D. program "competitive." My (admittedly limited) understanding is that Ph.D.s are really about the advisor. Kind of like how clerkships are more about the judge than the circuit. But I could be wrong.
Last edited by stoopkid13 on Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Academic Hiring Prospects for Non-T14?

Post by nixy » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:35 pm
OP here. Thank you so much for your answers!

Follow-up question: if you're not going straight into academia after graduation but after many years of practice, does the prestige of your employment (govt. agency, firm, etc.) help offset not being from HYS, and if so, how much? How about having additional degrees, like Ph.D., M.D., etc.?
I agree that the main factor is going to be good publications in high ranking law journals. The PhD can help, in part because more and more candidates have them, and because they give you time to produce good scholarship. But a PhD is a pretty big commitment, too. (Re: Econ - one of the big differences is that Econ PhDs often have a lot of good industry options, and comparative literature PhDs don’t. So there might be a bit of a premium for something like Econ, but I agree that mostly it will be what research you produce in that field, so comp lit with a legal emphasis is still an option.)

Years of experience generally don’t help much - it’s the publication record that matters, and a lot of schools aren’t interested in practitioners unless they have that track record of publication. (And personally I think that people immersed in practice often don’t approach topics in a very “academic” way so aren’t as appealing for that reason.) That said, there can be exceptions for specific positions that are more connected to student employment - like if the school has, say, a tech law concentration, they might hire a distinguished tech law practitioner to run that program, where part of the purpose would be to connect students to the industry. In that case, prestige of your work would matter a lot, or for more regional schools, how connected you are to that market (and probably at least regional prestige).

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Re: Academic Hiring Prospects for Non-T14?

Post by nixy » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:18 pm

Jchance wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:53 pm

Generally, all of these can be overcome with a strong publication record. (Imagine a T100 grad with multiple t10 flagship placements. See, e.g., https://www.northeastern.edu/law/facult ... rtzog.html.) Credentials speak to your potential of future high-end publications, which can be rebutted by actual results of high-end publications if your credentials are not up to par.
I agree with this - if you can get the publications placed in the right places it can overcome credentials. But keep in mind that this guy also did an LLM at GWU and then a PhD from UNC (which is really good in a lot of PhD programs), and was a law prof at his JD alma mater to start with. It’s not an easy path (not that you suggested it was, just wanted to emphasize that), but he also got a whole bunch more credentials, including doing what sounds like pretty respectable practice experience.

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Re: Academic Hiring Prospects for Non-T14?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:36 pm

nixy wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:50 am
Yeah, there are differences between schools in terms of desirability of location (you have to be willing to go anywhere), resources (look for rich private institutions rather than public ones in states that don’t support higher ed, which is unfortunately most of them these days!), and student body (there will be some smart kids everywhere, but because of the sorting by UGPA/LSAT the student body at, say, Cal Western is going to be different from, say, Harvard). I’m not sure whether there are significant differences in number of classes taught (this is the big thing for non-legal academia), but there could be. But I absolutely agree with anon above that these are going to be relatively marginal differences, compared to the issue of getting into academia in the first place.

If you can produce well-respected enough scholarship, I think that can get you into academia - but the system is such that the opportunities to create well-respected scholarship are clustered at the top schools as well. In theory a truly brilliant person can break through from anywhere (I remember on law review fighting for and not getting an amazing article by someone from a very very ordinary law school who was I think adjuncting and trying to break into full-time academia - I could see them doing so, but they were sort of the exception that proves the rule), but it doesn’t happen a lot. Because, too, law reviews don’t (generally) use blind review (maybe some? But it’s uncommon) and having certain names associated with your work definitely influences people. I mean, we rejected articles from plenty of fancy people, but pedigree still has an effect on people.
I was an AE recently. Blind review is starting to be a thing, mostly at T14 schools, but is still far from universal even in the T14. "Letterhead bias" is a huge problem in law review submissions, probably the biggest one after a lack of student expertise in specialist subjects (or really any subjects, but esp e.g. bankruptcy and tax).

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Re: Academic Hiring Prospects for Non-T14?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:42 pm

crazywafflez wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:27 pm
Specialize, publish a lot as best you can. Good luck getting tenure, it is really hard, even for Y/H/S grads/academics.
Tenure standards in law school are actually significantly more lax than they are in other fields, and schools that are well-known for denials, most notably Chicago as far as I know, are exceptions. The hard part is to get on the treadmill in the first place.

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Re: Academic Hiring Prospects for Non-T14?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:53 pm

Jchance wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:53 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:35 pm
OP here. Thank you so much for your answers!

Follow-up question: if you're not going straight into academia after graduation but after many years of practice, does the prestige of your employment (govt. agency, firm, etc.) help offset not being from HYS, and if so, how much? How about having additional degrees, like Ph.D., M.D., etc.?
PhD in econ could give you a small boost, especially if it's also a competitive PhD program (think top 6 or at least top 20). Otherwise, no.
This is genuinely terrible advice. Law school hiring has moved very, very heavily towards JD/Ph.D.s in the past decade and a Ph.D. is probably the single best way for a non-T14 grad to break into legal academia. That's because the other most important path to academia, elite clerkship-->practice-->fellowship/VAP, is very hard to get for a non-T14 student because both elite clerkships and fellowships strongly prefer top schools (though note a Ph.D. can lead to a fellowship and/or a clerkship and it's becoming common to hit all three of clerking, Ph.D.ing, and VAPing).

Econ is probably the most useful one, but history, philosophy, public policy of various sorts, and political science are also reasonably common. History and especially philosophy are mostly for specialists in legal history or jurisprudence, obviously. Part of the Ph.D. bump is because a Ph.D. helps you have time to write, much like a fellowship, and part of that is because you get mentorship, advanced training in law & X, and sheer credentialism, though as you correctly note, publications are also extremely important and can overcome just about anything (see like Elizabeth Warren).

On the other hand, the opportunity cost for a Ph.D. is pretty enormous for a lawyer, and even with one you may not break in. Also remember that Ph.D. admissions themselves are no easy task, especially if you didn't go to an elite undergrad with a lot of special academia career resources, etc. Academia is really hard, there's a reason very very few people make it beyond the T6, let alone the T14.

If you decided on a Ph.D. and were deciding between programs, which program is best for you will depend on which discipline you're going for a Ph.D. in. Your undergrad profs will probably be more helpful with this than your law school profs. So like in philosophy, you should go to NYU over Harvard. In most fields, strength of overall program, strength in your specific subfield of the field, and advisor all matter. (Re: one of the previous post on advisors, in most or all of the social sciences and humanities, and unlike in the hard sciences, you don't get an advisor until well after you start the program, so it's hard and risky to select for one specific prof.)

OP, the best online sources for this sort of thing will be the academia guides publicly available--the two best ones I know of are from Yale and Chicago--and profs posting more informal inside baseball on academic hiring on places like Prawfsblawg, Orin Kerr's Legal Academy podcast, and the academia series on the Summary, Judgment blog. Obviously your profs will also hopefully be good resources.

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