Is Cravath good? Forum

[aegor]

Hey, thanks for your input! It's great to hear it's a collegial place, especially from someone who actually works there. I'm a 1L and unabashedly came into law school with the dream of working at Cravath. The firm's stubborn dedication to lockstep, refusal to expand geographically, and uber-perfectionist culture are major selling points for me, though I know they are turn-offs for most people.

I honestly find it frustrating that people either try to harp about Cravath's "tragic decline" or start comparing it with D.C. lit boutiques. Like, for people who want to do M&A, Cravath is as good as it gets (and the "but Wachtell..." trope is exasperating because most people, myself included, CAN'T get Wachtell). IMO, Cravath is the achievable "creme de la creme" for corporate wannabes.

I feel like this post has been unjustly overlooked in the mockery so far. Sorry but if this isn’t a (great) troll a 1L valiantly defending their lifelong favorite corporate law firm from unjust slander is hilarious.

Agreed. Also, people who are prestige-driven but cannot get the best are pitiable. Wachtell is Wachtell. Anyone who cares about Cravath's prestige to the extent suggested here will also look down on it because it is not Wachtell.

It is like buying a Porsche because you want a sportscar but cannot afford a Bugatti. Just...sad.

[ExpOriental]

+1 Really curious about this too! Would love to hear more about Cravath’s culture/office environment/etc. since a lot of people (at my school and on TLS) seem to dismiss Cravath as a good place to work, either half-jokingly or even seriously. I personally feel like there is a bit of cognitive dissonance between those comments and the firm’s ranking and obvious “prestige,” so any “real” info/anecdotes would be appreciated!

Anon because I work here.

I think people who dismiss the firm as a good place to work are legitimately envious or repeating what they've heard without talking to people who work here. Across attorneys and staff, people are proud to work here and are collegial. You wouldn't survive here being an open asshole.

Working at Cravath means working Wachtell hours while making Milbank pay.

Milbank has been a mover, but we paid market well before them (but after their lower special bonuses). I think they eventually caught up to market. But don't be fooled by first movers who take months to match us when we respond to market.

Hey, thanks for your input! It's great to hear it's a collegial place, especially from someone who actually works there. I'm a 1L and unabashedly came into law school with the dream of working at Cravath. The firm's stubborn dedication to lockstep, refusal to expand geographically, and uber-perfectionist culture are major selling points for me, though I know they are turn-offs for most people.

I honestly find it frustrating that people either try to harp about Cravath's "tragic decline" or start comparing it with D.C. lit boutiques. Like, for people who want to do M&A, Cravath is as good as it gets (and the "but Wachtell..." trope is exasperating because most people, myself included, CAN'T get Wachtell). IMO, Cravath is the achievable "creme de la creme" for corporate wannabes.

I feel like this post has been unjustly overlooked in the mockery so far. Sorry but if this isn’t a (great) troll a 1L valiantly defending their lifelong favorite corporate law firm from unjust slander is hilarious.

First they came for Cravath.

And I did not speak out, for I was not at Cravath.

[Anonymous User]

It drives them mad when you call it the “Milbank scale,” because “Cravath scale” is about the last thing they have left

[Anonymous User]

Hey, thanks for your input! It's great to hear it's a collegial place, especially from someone who actually works there. I'm a 1L and unabashedly came into law school with the dream of working at Cravath. The firm's stubborn dedication to lockstep, refusal to expand geographically, and uber-perfectionist culture are major selling points for me, though I know they are turn-offs for most people.

I honestly find it frustrating that people either try to harp about Cravath's "tragic decline" or start comparing it with D.C. lit boutiques. Like, for people who want to do M&A, Cravath is as good as it gets (and the "but Wachtell..." trope is exasperating because most people, myself included, CAN'T get Wachtell). IMO, Cravath is the achievable "creme de la creme" for corporate wannabes.

I feel like this post has been unjustly overlooked in the mockery so far. Sorry but if this isn’t a (great) troll a 1L valiantly defending their lifelong favorite corporate law firm from unjust slander is hilarious.

Agreed. Also, people who are prestige-driven but cannot get the best are pitiable. Wachtell is Wachtell. Anyone who cares about Cravath's prestige to the extent suggested here will also look down on it because it is not Wachtell.

It is like buying a Porsche because you want a sportscar but cannot afford a Bugatti. Just...sad.

Good metaphor, but Cravathers really remind me of those people who insist on driving a BMW 3 series base trim. Then they go around telling everybody that they drive a BMW and keep offering you a ride even though they know you have a car.

[Anonymous User]

+1 Really curious about this too! Would love to hear more about Cravath’s culture/office environment/etc. since a lot of people (at my school and on TLS) seem to dismiss Cravath as a good place to work, either half-jokingly or even seriously. I personally feel like there is a bit of cognitive dissonance between those comments and the firm’s ranking and obvious “prestige,” so any “real” info/anecdotes would be appreciated!

Anon because I work here.

I think people who dismiss the firm as a good place to work are legitimately envious or repeating what they've heard without talking to people who work here. Across attorneys and staff, people are proud to work here and are collegial. You wouldn't survive here being an open asshole.

Working at Cravath means working Wachtell hours while making Milbank pay.

Milbank has been a mover, but we paid market well before them (but after their lower special bonuses). I think they eventually caught up to market. But don't be fooled by first movers who take months to match us when we respond to market.

Hey, thanks for your input! It's great to hear it's a collegial place, especially from someone who actually works there. I'm a 1L and unabashedly came into law school with the dream of working at Cravath. The firm's stubborn dedication to lockstep, refusal to expand geographically, and uber-perfectionist culture are major selling points for me, though I know they are turn-offs for most people.

I honestly find it frustrating that people either try to harp about Cravath's "tragic decline" or start comparing it with D.C. lit boutiques. Like, for people who want to do M&A, Cravath is as good as it gets (and the "but Wachtell..." trope is exasperating because most people, myself included, CAN'T get Wachtell). IMO, Cravath is the achievable "creme de la creme" for corporate wannabes.

I feel like this post has been unjustly overlooked in the mockery so far. Sorry but if this isn’t a (great) troll a 1L valiantly defending their lifelong favorite corporate law firm from unjust slander is hilarious.

LOL. I feel like the post isn't a troll but, while inane, it's kind of wholesome too. 1Ls being fixated on Cravath is like 0Ls being fixated on Harvard imo. Can't wait to see them find out that all the firms are the same and work you to death.

[Anonymous User]

Ok let’s try to make this functional a little bit. Does the prestige factor of Cravath actually pay off in exit opps? I get that the work itself is worse than others at the same pay, but is there something to be said (not a leading question, genuinely curious) about *external* parties valuing that culture?

I also don’t get what perfectionism means. Does say DPW tolerate errors in their end product (doubt it!), or do you just not get snippy remarks if you don’t know something?

[Anonymous User]

Hey, thanks for your input! It's great to hear it's a collegial place, especially from someone who actually works there. I'm a 1L and unabashedly came into law school with the dream of working at Cravath. The firm's stubborn dedication to lockstep, refusal to expand geographically, and uber-perfectionist culture are major selling points for me, though I know they are turn-offs for most people.

I honestly find it frustrating that people either try to harp about Cravath's "tragic decline" or start comparing it with D.C. lit boutiques. Like, for people who want to do M&A, Cravath is as good as it gets (and the "but Wachtell..." trope is exasperating because most people, myself included, CAN'T get Wachtell). IMO, Cravath is the achievable "creme de la creme" for corporate wannabes.

I feel like this post has been unjustly overlooked in the mockery so far. Sorry but if this isn’t a (great) troll a 1L valiantly defending their lifelong favorite corporate law firm from unjust slander is hilarious.

Agreed. Also, people who are prestige-driven but cannot get the best are pitiable. Wachtell is Wachtell. Anyone who cares about Cravath's prestige to the extent suggested here will also look down on it because it is not Wachtell.

It is like buying a Porsche because you want a sportscar but cannot afford a Bugatti. Just...sad.

Tbf, OP did ask about if Cravath was "good," not whether it was "the best." But yes, 0Ls and 1Ls fawning over specific firms is ridiculous.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

ITT: 50+ posts of "Is Cravath good" with no replies from anyone at Cravath.

Could one of you show up and confirm whether you're embarrassed to be making less than your counterparts from firms like Ropes, Fried Frank, Schulte or Katten? I have not been able to explain to my mom why the "best" firms don't pay the most so if someone could give her a succinct summary of PrestigePoints™ that would be great.

[Anonymous User]

Ok let’s try to make this functional a little bit. Does the prestige factor of Cravath actually pay off in exit opps? I get that the work itself is worse than others at the same pay, but is there something to be said (not a leading question, genuinely curious) about *external* parties valuing that culture?

I also don’t get what perfectionism means. Does say DPW tolerate errors in their end product (doubt it!), or do you just not get snippy remarks if you don’t know something?

I worked at Cravath.

I now work in-house in an industry that Cravath never touched, in a state Cravath has no real footprint in. I think it gave me a slight edge in that people assumed I had a strong generalist corporate background and a good work ethic (I had little need to prove either), but that's about it. I didn't apply to places that Cravath had a particular affinity for (i.e., banks or large public companies).

I think the name carries larger weight in terms of exit opps if you're in New York or tied to the financial services industry.

It wasn't easy to work there, but I don't regret going. At the time I chose it, the rotation system was a big plus for me, for a couple reasons. I have friends in DPW M&A and Capital Markets right now who have worked my worst billable month on repeat for the last year plus.

[jotarokujo]

how much more does one work at cravath on average than at other big firms?

[Anonymous User]

ITT: 50+ posts of "Is Cravath good" with no replies from anyone at Cravath.

Except for the one Cravath anon who told everyone that they're just "legitimately envious." HAHA

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

ITT: 50+ posts of "Is Cravath good" with no replies from anyone at Cravath.

Except for the one Cravath anon who told everyone that they're just "legitimately envious." HAHA

My mistake. As you can tell, I don't have the detail orientation to walk those hallowed halls.

Cravath anon, please draft a memo on why telling associates to work harder than their TTT peers who coasted to median for equal or less pay is analogous to telling an artist to work for "exposure." Need by COB today, client is pushing. Thx. Sent from my iPhone.

[Anonymous User]

Former Cravath associate here. I just want to say that the firm is like any other corporate organization and that classifying it as one "thing" or another is not only unproductive, it also leads to a lot of inaccurate generalizing (especially from folks that have never spent time there). There are both lots of great things about the firm and lots of things that could be improved, and these can vary in both directions from partner group to partner group, class year to class year, etc. And some people love the rotation system, while others would prefer a freer market; the firm is pretty open about it being a very particular model and that it may not fit everyone's sensibilities.

In terms of how others in the industry perceive Cravath, at this point in my career, a handful of years out from my time there, it's been nothing but helpful to me (and I'm a litigator with clerkship experience now working out of big law). Would potential employers have thought more highly of me if I came from somewhere else, like a W&C or Kellogg? I have no idea. But I can say anecdotally that in many interviews, both with judges and in legal employment more broadly, CSM has been favorably discussed, and I've had a lot of success with jobs I've sought subsequent to my time there.

The TLDR of this is that I would urge young lawyers to think less about what's "good" and more about the type of environment/work/structure/etc. you're looking for, and find a place that fits you -- this is especially true if you're someone who's considering firms at the tippy-top of Vault, which, in my opinion, all come out pretty equally in the wash.

[Anonymous User]

how much more does one work at cravath on average than at other big firms?

From what I gather anecdotally from talking to a large friend group with several people at Cravath and the V-30ish, there are no differences in the hours worked among those firms -- we all have horrible hours. I'm inclined to believe people are just parroting what they've heard about Cravath hours vis-a-vis other top firms. I really can think of no friend at another firm who I'd say works less than my Cravath friends.

If anyone else has heard instances of people at other top firms working even marginally less, then great. But that's not what I've seen.

[Anonymous User]

Ok let’s try to make this functional a little bit. Does the prestige factor of Cravath actually pay off in exit opps? I get that the work itself is worse than others at the same pay, but is there something to be said (not a leading question, genuinely curious) about *external* parties valuing that culture?

I also don’t get what perfectionism means. Does say DPW tolerate errors in their end product (doubt it!), or do you just not get snippy remarks if you don’t know something?

I worked at Cravath.

I now work in-house in an industry that Cravath never touched, in a state Cravath has no real footprint in. I think it gave me a slight edge in that people assumed I had a strong generalist corporate background and a good work ethic (I had little need to prove either), but that's about it. I didn't apply to places that Cravath had a particular affinity for (i.e., banks or large public companies).

I think the name carries larger weight in terms of exit opps if you're in New York or tied to the financial services industry.

It wasn't easy to work there, but I don't regret going. At the time I chose it, the rotation system was a big plus for me, for a couple reasons. I have friends in DPW M&A and Capital Markets right now who have worked my worst billable month on repeat for the last year plus.

I didn't work for Cravath, but I'm a litigator in a major secondary market (think CA, TX, IL) and know of several Cravath laterals. The four Cravath laterals that I know of are all in solid firms, but a couple of pegs below the top local shops. I also remember chatting about this with corporate friends. They mentioned that having a top NYC firm on your resume will probably give you more mileage for cross-region laterals in the the transactions world, but they also suggested that this goes for all the top shops in NYC (not Cravath specifically).

[Anonymous User]

.

[Anonymous User]

Cravath associate here. I think that what several others have said is right: it’s about whether you want to rotate. I personally came here over DPW because I liked the idea of the rotation system because I was genuinely unsure about what kind of corporate practice I wanted. If I’d wanted to only do one thing and knew that, I’d have gone elsewhere.

I don’t think the culture is really any better or worse than your average top NY big law firm based on talking to law school friends at other V10s who work as much or more than I do and also work for toxic assholes.

I also do think (hope?) that there is some marginal (if unearned) prestige bump when looking at exit options. Whether or not Cravath is really any “better” than DPW/S&C/STB is kind of an irrelevant question, it’s really more do the people who will hire at exit ops think that it’s better. In any event, they’re all miserable places that will work you to death if you let them so you might as well pick the least miserable one with the best ex ante setup for your inevitable exit.

[Anonymous User]

Cravath associate here. I think that what several others have said is right: it’s about whether you want to rotate. I personally came here over DPW because I liked the idea of the rotation system because I was genuinely unsure about what kind of corporate practice I wanted. If I’d wanted to only do one thing and knew that, I’d have gone elsewhere.

I don’t think the culture is really any better or worse than your average top NY big law firm based on talking to law school friends at other V10s who work as much or more than I do and also work for toxic assholes.

I also do think (hope?) that there is some marginal (if unearned) prestige bump when looking at exit options. Whether or not Cravath is really any “better” than DPW/S&C/STB is kind of an irrelevant question, it’s really more do the people who will hire at exit ops think that it’s better. In any event, they’re all miserable places that will work you to death if you let them so you might as well pick the least miserable one with the best ex ante setup for your inevitable exit.

Anon with all the V1-V30 friends above. From what I've inferred, Cravath associates seem to have to figure out more stuff on their own when doing assignments, but other than it that the cultures don't seem too far apart. (I stand corrected if my conclusion is wrong.)

[Anonymous User]

This is pretty in the weeds but do any Cravathers know the story with the recent David Portilla hire? Did he bring any associates with him? Is this part of an effort by Cravath to break into bank m&A or bank reg more generally?

[Anonymous User]

Former Cravath associate here. I just want to say that the firm is like any other corporate organization and that classifying it as one "thing" or another is not only unproductive, it also leads to a lot of inaccurate generalizing (especially from folks that have never spent time there). There are both lots of great things about the firm and lots of things that could be improved, and these can vary in both directions from partner group to partner group, class year to class year, etc. And some people love the rotation system, while others would prefer a freer market; the firm is pretty open about it being a very particular model and that it may not fit everyone's sensibilities.

A lot of people are missing this point. Many associates come to Cravath because of the rotation system.

This is pretty in the weeds but do any Cravathers know the story with the recent David Portilla hire? Did he bring any associates with him? Is this part of an effort by Cravath to break into bank m&A or bank reg more generally?

No, he didn't bring any associates (we have a way to check internally) and we already have experience with bank M&A so not sure what you're getting at with the last question.

[Anonymous User]

This is pretty in the weeds but do any Cravathers know the story with the recent David Portilla hire? Did he bring any associates with him? Is this part of an effort by Cravath to break into bank m&A or bank reg more generally?

No, he didn't bring any associates (we have a way to check internally) and we already have experience with bank M&A so not sure what you're getting at with the last question.

That's interesting, thanks for the response. Sure, "break into" is overly harsh, but what was the last significant bank M&A deal Cravath did? It's pretty clearly WLRK and S&C, then a drop off to STB (and maybe DPW), and then another drop off to others. I was just interested given the below quote from the press release. I didn't know Cravath had much of a practice (transactional or advisory) to speak of in this space.

“Cravath has advised on many of the most transformative transactions in the banking and financial services sector,” said Mr. Portilla. “I look forward to supporting the Firm’s clients in navigating the increasingly complex financial regulatory landscape.”

https://www.cravath.com/news/david-l-po ... avath.html

[feminist.supporter]

Hey, thanks for your input! It's great to hear it's a collegial place, especially from someone who actually works there. I'm a 1L and unabashedly came into law school with the dream of working at Cravath. The firm's stubborn dedication to lockstep, refusal to expand geographically, and uber-perfectionist culture are major selling points for me, though I know they are turn-offs for most people.

I honestly find it frustrating that people either try to harp about Cravath's "tragic decline" or start comparing it with D.C. lit boutiques. Like, for people who want to do M&A, Cravath is as good as it gets (and the "but Wachtell..." trope is exasperating because most people, myself included, CAN'T get Wachtell). IMO, Cravath is the achievable "creme de la creme" for corporate wannabes.

I feel like this post has been unjustly overlooked in the mockery so far. Sorry but if this isn’t a (great) troll a 1L valiantly defending their lifelong favorite corporate law firm from unjust slander is hilarious.

Agreed. Also, people who are prestige-driven but cannot get the best are pitiable. Wachtell is Wachtell. Anyone who cares about Cravath's prestige to the extent suggested here will also look down on it because it is not Wachtell.

It is like buying a Porsche because you want a sportscar but cannot afford a Bugatti. Just...sad.

An entry level 992 generation Porsche 911 costs 105k out the door. A current generation Bugatti Chiron costs 2million+ depending on specs. I don't think that's quite comparable. (but do get the point tho).

[Anonymous User]

The exit ops discussion is the only angle that matters. CSM probably isn’t some hellhole, even if the median assessment of culture pegs it as less desirable than its peers’. At the same time, I’m highly skeptical that the “type of work” or “perfectionist mindset” is so valuable that it’s worth forsaking pay for more hours inherently.

If the name (whether it’s actually earned by empirical selectivity or just a historical halo) has some sheen that results in qualitatively better in-house or other exits, then yeah the “prestige” is probably worth it. If not, then not.

[Anonymous User]

An entry level 992 generation Porsche 911 costs 105k out the door. A current generation Bugatti Chiron costs 2million+ depending on specs. I don't think that's quite comparable. (but do get the point tho).

On the contrary, that is exactly the thrust of the comparison.

[ExpOriental]

+1 Really curious about this too! Would love to hear more about Cravath’s culture/office environment/etc. since a lot of people (at my school and on TLS) seem to dismiss Cravath as a good place to work, either half-jokingly or even seriously. I personally feel like there is a bit of cognitive dissonance between those comments and the firm’s ranking and obvious “prestige,” so any “real” info/anecdotes would be appreciated!

Anon because I work here.

I think people who dismiss the firm as a good place to work are legitimately envious or repeating what they've heard without talking to people who work here. Across attorneys and staff, people are proud to work here and are collegial. You wouldn't survive here being an open asshole.

Working at Cravath means working Wachtell hours while making Milbank pay.

Milbank has been a mover, but we paid market well before them (but after their lower special bonuses). I think they eventually caught up to market. But don't be fooled by first movers who take months to match us when we respond to market.

Hey, thanks for your input! It's great to hear it's a collegial place, especially from someone who actually works there. I'm a 1L and unabashedly came into law school with the dream of working at Cravath. The firm's stubborn dedication to lockstep, refusal to expand geographically, and uber-perfectionist culture are major selling points for me, though I know they are turn-offs for most people.

I honestly find it frustrating that people either try to harp about Cravath's "tragic decline" or start comparing it with D.C. lit boutiques. Like, for people who want to do M&A, Cravath is as good as it gets (and the "but Wachtell..." trope is exasperating because most people, myself included, CAN'T get Wachtell). IMO, Cravath is the achievable "creme de la creme" for corporate wannabes.

It is on this day that our poor anon's heart is broken