Psychotic Partner Forum

[Anonymous User]

Work at top 10 NYC firm in a transactional practice. We have a partner who goes into the office (yes during covid) every day (including weekends) and will email and call associates w/o any regard for weekends or any kind of life outside of work? Is this normal or will it be a little better at another big law firm? Don’t mind the hours of biglaw but it’s getting so hard to keep working under this guy’s schedule.

[kaiser]

I was in biglaw for almost 7 years and I worked for a few partners who operated like that. They just liked to bounce around ideas because they were always working on the weekend. And to a certain extent, this is precisely what they are paying you for. Assuming you are more on the junior side, you are getting paid for your time and availability, not your legal acumen. So while it is needless and inconvenient, its not necessarily out of bounds.

That being said, you would be fully within your right to draw some boundaries to protect what little free time you get. What year are you currently? Once I was a few years in, I largely stopped engaging these types of needless weekend emails. I would acknowledge receipt, but would generally say something along the lines of "thanks, I will definitely look into that on Monday, though let me know if the need is more urgent". That way, I set some boundary, and made very clear that I'm not simply dropping everything on the weekend unless its genuinely warranted. Though if a partner requested an actual call, I would generally still do it if possible.

The good news is that most firms and most partners aren't like that. They themselves want to enjoy their weekends, and aren't so sadistic as to want to ruin yours for no reason. But it will always be person to person, so the best advice may be to try and work with other partners who don't operate this way.

[burritotaco]

I'd wager there is a partner or two (or more) like that at every major law firm office in the country. The key is to somehow not get assigned to the partner. It can be awkward and impossible to avoid working for them, but firmly standing your ground (in an innocuous way) is the only way to do it. Speaking from experience, working for someone like that is absolutely draining and can make life miserable.

I'd recommend talking to other associates to see what the partner really expects from you. Some just work around the clock because work is their life and can wait for you to respond during reasonable work hours. Some expect you to drop everything and immediately cater to their every need.

[Pneumonia]

Work at top 10 NYC firm in a transactional practice. We have a partner who goes into the office (yes during covid) every day (including weekends) and will email and call associates w/o any regard for weekends or any kind of life outside of work? Is this normal or will it be a little better at another big law firm? Don’t mind the hours of biglaw but it’s getting so hard to keep working under this guy’s schedule.

The only part of this that even approaches soundin "psychotic" is the calls (and then only if they are occurring late nights and are otherwise unexpected). People fire off emails all the time. Is he demanding immediate responses at any time? Or are you just assuming that's his expectation? Ditto for calls. Maybe he is, in which case that is unfortunate. But be sure you're not trying to meet expectations that don't exist. Very few lawyers are going to hesitate sending an email based on the time. But that doesn't mean they expect an immediate response. I agree that "got it" emails can be helpful.

[Anonymous User]

Work at top 10 NYC firm in a transactional practice. We have a partner who goes into the office (yes during covid) every day (including weekends) and will email and call associates w/o any regard for weekends or any kind of life outside of work? Is this normal or will it be a little better at another big law firm? Don’t mind the hours of biglaw but it’s getting so hard to keep working under this guy’s schedule.

The only part of this that even approaches soundin "psychotic" is the calls (and then only if they are occurring late nights and are otherwise unexpected). People fire off emails all the time. Is he demanding immediate responses at any time? Or are you just assuming that's his expectation? Ditto for calls. Maybe he is, in which case that is unfortunate. But be sure you're not trying to meet expectations that don't exist. Very few lawyers are going to hesitate sending an email based on the time. But that doesn't mean they expect an immediate response. I agree that "got it" emails can be helpful.

This is a really important distinction. I work for a partner who requires a response that I received the email within an hour no matter when (maybe not like 2 am, but definitely any time between like 7 am and midnight at least).

[Anonymous User]

Work at top 10 NYC firm in a transactional practice. We have a partner who goes into the office (yes during covid) every day (including weekends) and will email and call associates w/o any regard for weekends or any kind of life outside of work? Is this normal or will it be a little better at another big law firm? Don’t mind the hours of biglaw but it’s getting so hard to keep working under this guy’s schedule.

The only part of this that even approaches soundin "psychotic" is the calls (and then only if they are occurring late nights and are otherwise unexpected). People fire off emails all the time. Is he demanding immediate responses at any time? Or are you just assuming that's his expectation? Ditto for calls. Maybe he is, in which case that is unfortunate. But be sure you're not trying to meet expectations that don't exist. Very few lawyers are going to hesitate sending an email based on the time. But that doesn't mean they expect an immediate response. I agree that "got it" emails can be helpful.

This is a really important distinction. I work for a partner who requires a response that I received the email within an hour no matter when (maybe not like 2 am, but definitely any time between like 7 am and midnight at least).

This is psychotic to me. And IMO that's the fastest path to burnout - having no opportunity to be untethered, not even for a Saturday night with a date. I also silence my phone and sleep pretty late and I will not let Partner A take 7 AM from me while Partner B takes midnight and I get stuck in the middle.

[Anonymous User]

Work at top 10 NYC firm in a transactional practice. We have a partner who goes into the office (yes during covid) every day (including weekends) and will email and call associates w/o any regard for weekends or any kind of life outside of work? Is this normal or will it be a little better at another big law firm? Don’t mind the hours of biglaw but it’s getting so hard to keep working under this guy’s schedule.

The only part of this that even approaches soundin "psychotic" is the calls (and then only if they are occurring late nights and are otherwise unexpected). People fire off emails all the time. Is he demanding immediate responses at any time? Or are you just assuming that's his expectation? Ditto for calls. Maybe he is, in which case that is unfortunate. But be sure you're not trying to meet expectations that don't exist. Very few lawyers are going to hesitate sending an email based on the time. But that doesn't mean they expect an immediate response. I agree that "got it" emails can be helpful.

This is a really important distinction. I work for a partner who requires a response that I received the email within an hour no matter when (maybe not like 2 am, but definitely any time between like 7 am and midnight at least).

This is psychotic to me. And IMO that's the fastest path to burnout - having no opportunity to be untethered, not even for a Saturday night with a date. I also silence my phone and sleep pretty late and I will not let Partner A take 7 AM from me while Partner B takes midnight and I get stuck in the middle.

I’m the poster with the crazy partner above. I’m not the OP, btw.

[Anonymous User]

Work at top 10 NYC firm in a transactional practice. We have a partner who goes into the office (yes during covid) every day (including weekends) and will email and call associates w/o any regard for weekends or any kind of life outside of work? Is this normal or will it be a little better at another big law firm? Don’t mind the hours of biglaw but it’s getting so hard to keep working under this guy’s schedule.

The only part of this that even approaches soundin "psychotic" is the calls (and then only if they are occurring late nights and are otherwise unexpected). People fire off emails all the time. Is he demanding immediate responses at any time? Or are you just assuming that's his expectation? Ditto for calls. Maybe he is, in which case that is unfortunate. But be sure you're not trying to meet expectations that don't exist. Very few lawyers are going to hesitate sending an email based on the time. But that doesn't mean they expect an immediate response. I agree that "got it" emails can be helpful.

This is a really important distinction. I work for a partner who requires a response that I received the email within an hour no matter when (maybe not like 2 am, but definitely any time between like 7 am and midnight at least).

Maybe he is so boomer he doesn't understand how reliable emails are and that of course you received his email. Just set up an auto-response to his emails with varying iterations of "Got it, thanks."

[Anonymous User]

Work at top 10 NYC firm in a transactional practice. We have a partner who goes into the office (yes during covid) every day (including weekends) and will email and call associates w/o any regard for weekends or any kind of life outside of work? Is this normal or will it be a little better at another big law firm? Don’t mind the hours of biglaw but it’s getting so hard to keep working under this guy’s schedule.

The only part of this that even approaches soundin "psychotic" is the calls (and then only if they are occurring late nights and are otherwise unexpected). People fire off emails all the time. Is he demanding immediate responses at any time? Or are you just assuming that's his expectation? Ditto for calls. Maybe he is, in which case that is unfortunate. But be sure you're not trying to meet expectations that don't exist. Very few lawyers are going to hesitate sending an email based on the time. But that doesn't mean they expect an immediate response. I agree that "got it" emails can be helpful.

This is a really important distinction. I work for a partner who requires a response that I received the email within an hour no matter when (maybe not like 2 am, but definitely any time between like 7 am and midnight at least).

Maybe he is so boomer he doesn't understand how reliable emails are and that of course you received his email. Just set up an auto-response to his emails with varying iterations of "Got it, thanks."

Easier said than done. I usually have to ask if it needs to be done immediately or if it can wait until Monday. The answer half the time is “this needed to be done yesterday” aka not a real response, but there have been times when I’ve received emails at 1 or 2 with an “urgent” request.

[Anonymous User]

Easier said than done. I usually have to ask if it needs to be done immediately or if it can wait until Monday. The answer half the time is “this needed to be done yesterday” aka not a real response, but there have been times when I’ve received emails at 1 or 2 with an “urgent” request.

Working for a partner like this is what drove me out of biglaw for good as a senior associate. I had a large enough nest egg saved up, had enough years under my belt to make be credible, and went in house. I do not think this partner’s type of behavior is normal in biglaw, but it is common enough that many will run into someone like that at some point. The partner was petty and territorial enough that simply shifting to work for others was not an option (plus once you’re an integral part of a litigation team, you generally see it through to case end, which in my instance meant potentially years of this). I’m talking hours-long calls at any time of the night, strict requirements to respond to all emails within an hour, and micromanaging to the point of our team needing to send in daily schedules of what we were working on. My life was essentially controlled 24/7 by this partner, and pushback was met with not-so-subtle hints that he could have any of us fired if he wanted.

At some point the only recourse an associate has is to bail from the firm entirely.

[Anonymous User]

I feel like kissing the partners I work with on the smooth part of their heads for not being this awful

[Anonymous User]

Easier said than done. I usually have to ask if it needs to be done immediately or if it can wait until Monday. The answer half the time is “this needed to be done yesterday” aka not a real response, but there have been times when I’ve received emails at 1 or 2 with an “urgent” request.

Working for a partner like this is what drove me out of biglaw for good as a senior associate. I had a large enough nest egg saved up, had enough years under my belt to make be credible, and went in house. I do not think this partner’s type of behavior is normal in biglaw, but it is common enough that many will run into someone like that at some point. The partner was petty and territorial enough that simply shifting to work for others was not an option (plus once you’re an integral part of a litigation team, you generally see it through to case end, which in my instance meant potentially years of this). I’m talking hours-long calls at any time of the night, strict requirements to respond to all emails within an hour, and micromanaging to the point of our team needing to send in daily schedules of what we were working on. My life was essentially controlled 24/7 by this partner, and pushback was met with not-so-subtle hints that he could have any of us fired if he wanted.

At some point the only recourse an associate has is to bail from the firm entirely.

I worked for a partner like this, though yours sounds worse. It was years ago yet I still got anxiety right now just thinking of seeing her name pop up on my phone or getting an email from her (which was always marked high importance and frequently had all caps). Working for someone who has no life outside of work and expects you to be available 24/7 while constantly acting like everything is a huge fire drill is just plain miserable. I did it for about six months and really, really hated it. OP, I hate to say it, but working for these kinds of people just does not get better. The only thing you can do is avoid them at all costs.

[Anonymous User]

Biglaw is so unreasonably demanding that the only people who lean into those demands and accept them long term (as partners) are almost uniformly psychotic and ARE uniformly workaholics. Some are worse than others; some can be much better about boundaries and time, but at the end of the day, they will work too much and expect associates to do the same or more.

I think it’s unfortunate that the industry has landed in this place but it’s not at all surprising. The “good” biglaw experiences that I’m familiar with are still unreasonable from any normal perspective of what work should demand from anyone’s life. And the bad ones are excruciating.

[The Lsat Airbender]

Biglaw is so unreasonably demanding that the only people who lean into those demands and accept them long term (as partners) are almost uniformly psychotic and ARE uniformly workaholics. Some are worse than others; some can be much better about boundaries and time, but at the end of the day, they will work too much and expect associates to do the same or more.

I think it’s unfortunate that the industry has landed in this place but it’s not at all surprising. The “good” biglaw experiences that I’m familiar with are still unreasonable from any normal perspective of what work should demand from anyone’s life. And the bad ones are excruciating.

brave anon lol

[thecareerfiles]

This is not normal in my experience. Biglaw lawyers tend to email at all hours but unless you're working on an urgent deal or filing, it's ok to wait to respond until a more reasonable hour. Disconnecting completely on weekends is generally not OK, but 9 times out of 10 as a junior, I could respond within a few hours with "Will do - I'll get this to you on Monday (or early next week or whatever)" and be fine. In your shoes, I would work on filling up my time with other matters so I could ease off this partner's radar rather than jumping ship to another firm immediately.

[CanadianWolf]

You work at a Top 10 NYC firm and are asking about "normal". I think that the more appropriate approach is to inquire about personality types.

Since you are in a transactional practice group & not in litigation, this type of behavior may not be what you expected. But even transactional matters require constant attention if, for example, a deadline is near and the matter involves several different time zones.

I encourage you to keep a printout of your most recent paycheck when experiencing angst over being on call during what you expect to be your downtime.

[Anonymous User]

I encourage you to keep a printout of your most recent paycheck when experiencing angst over being on call during what you expect to be your downtime.

Some of us do not want to put up with borderline abusive behavior, no matter what the price is. One's mental and physical health is worth a lot more than market salary (which isn't even that great if you have student loans and live in a high cost of living city).

[nixy]

I mean, being expected to be constantly on call isn’t really abusive. It sucks and I get deciding it’s not worth the paycheck, but it’s kind of the reason you get paid what you get paid. Biglaw is a service industry and notoriously indifferent to work/life boundaries. Some partners are better about this than others, but it’s pretty much baked into the business model.