Goodwin v. Wilson Sonsini (SF)? Forum

[Soso694]

Prospective summer associate here. I'm totally outing myself, but I wanted to get some insight to ease the decision process. (I've talked to many attorneys from both firms).

Wilson's reputation in the SF/Bay is unrivaled. But Goodwin's been so great and they have strong practices in big tech/biotech, EC, and VC work too. It's in growth mode on the West Coast. They've also been such great people. It's harder to choose since we're remote and I can't visit the offices during a normal day of work to understand the atmosphere.

Can anyone who is familiar with Goodwin's SF office give me their honest insight? Is it easy to find partners invested in your growth, etc?

[Anonymous User]

During the start of pandemic, Goodwin did stealth layoffs and Wilson Sonsini *has* not. That fact would honestly make my decision very easy.

[Anonymous User]

During the start of pandemic, Goodwin did stealth layoffs and Wilson Sonsini *has* not. That fact would honestly make my decision very easy.

Yes, I've read this when looking for cons. It's not a good look at all and it's definitely something I've considered.

But I would like to better understand how that would directly affect me moving forward? From which offices and practice areas were the layoffs? What is management and the review process typically like? How easily can I work with partners invested in my development and willing to give me work? How often are stealth layoffs at other big firms conducted and was Goodwin the only firm that did this during the pandemic, or the only one that got caught? I think of firms like Latham and how they've salvaged their reputation since then, so I'm just trying to get a big picture understanding.

-edit-

It says anonymous, but I'm the OP

[Anonymous User]

During the start of pandemic, Goodwin did stealth layoffs and Wilson Sonsini *has* not. That fact would honestly make my decision very easy.

This. If a firm lays off dozens of associates because it expects the economy to tank what happens if the economy actually tanks?

[Anonymous User]

During the start of pandemic, Goodwin did stealth layoffs and Wilson Sonsini *has* not. That fact would honestly make my decision very easy.

This. If a firm lays off dozens of associates because it expects the economy to tank what happens if the economy actually tanks?

Latham?

[Anonymous User]

Agree with other posters. My firm, which is a peer of WSGR’s, definitely didn’t layoff any associates and has actually been in crazy lateral hiring mode throughout the year, with maybe a month pause in April or so. The EC/VC space and tech/biotech industries have been super strong, even through the pandemic so the fact that Goodwin resorted to stealth firing associates so quickly is a HUGE red flag that reflects poorly on their financial condition and their culture.

Also, Goodwin in the Bay Area has recently lost a number of strong corporate partners to other firms this year (including one recently to WSGR).

[Soso694]

The EC/VC space and tech/biotech industries have been super strong, even through the pandemic so the fact that Goodwin resorted to stealth firing associates so quickly is a HUGE red flag that reflects poorly on their financial condition and their culture.

Thanks for your input. In your experience, what would this suggest? Financially, a firm of their caliber in the industries they sit in should be fine. So I'm ruling out their financial condition as a factor. I know they have no debt too. So why else would they do this? I see a lot of people -say- this is a red flag, and I agree, but the analysis as to -why- is still a mystery to me given their industries.

[Anonymous User]

Agree with other posters. My firm, which is a peer of WSGR’s, definitely didn’t layoff any associates and has actually been in crazy lateral hiring mode throughout the year, with maybe a month pause in April or so. The EC/VC space and tech/biotech industries have been super strong, even through the pandemic so the fact that Goodwin resorted to stealth firing associates so quickly is a HUGE red flag that reflects poorly on their financial condition and their culture.

Also, Goodwin in the Bay Area has recently lost a number of strong corporate partners to other firms this year (including one recently to WSGR).

Goodwin also poached a WSGR life sciences partner within the last year. Some movement among partners is not that surprising.

I don't think it's a good look that Goodwin jumped the gun by firing so many associates, but let's remember that many firms took preemptive austerity cuts in anticipation to a economic slowdown. Goodwin's RPL and PPEP are higher than WSGR, so I'm not sure that they are necessarily in worse financial condition.

WSGR also has a history of cultural concerns, so I don't think this is a cut and dry case where one firm is clearly superior to the other. Sounds like OP vibed more with the Goodwin attorneys, and that counts for something.

[Anonymous User]

WSGR >>> Goodwin in SF/SV

[Anonymous User]

During the start of pandemic, Goodwin did stealth layoffs and Wilson Sonsini *has* not. That fact would honestly make my decision very easy.

Yes, I've read this when looking for cons. It's not a good look at all and it's definitely something I've considered.

But I would like to better understand how that would directly affect me moving forward? From which offices and practice areas were the layoffs? What is management and the review process typically like? How easily can I work with partners invested in my development and willing to give me work? How often are stealth layoffs at other big firms conducted and was Goodwin the only firm that did this during the pandemic, or the only one that got caught? I think of firms like Latham and how they've salvaged their reputation since then, so I'm just trying to get a big picture understanding.

-edit-

It says anonymous, but I'm the OP

Goodwin senior corporate associate here and I agree with the poster that said it is a slam dunk for WSGR. I legitimately do not understand how someone points out huge layoffs and your response is to ask how it would directly affect you. I don't mean that to be snarky but it is difficult to imagine what could be more relevant to an incoming associate than the fact that a firm recently fired dozens of associates.

I recommend you read about Goodwin and their behavior in these linked threads. The first called "Whats up with Goodwin" is probably the most topical but there's a lot of egregiousness to read about throughout.
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=306913
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=308360
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=308658
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=307513
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=305466&start=25 (starting on page 2)

These layoffs were heavily made in corporate practice groups (perhaps because Goodwin already did large litigation layoffs in 2015: see here https://abovethelaw.com/2015/03/nationw ... ys-off-30/). Juniors, midlevels and senior associates were affected including associates with very positive reviews, that were well above hours, and that were laterals or juniors that were just hired etc. Tech/Life Sciences and Private Equity, two of the most profitable groups, were heavily affected, but real estate, litigation and specialist groups were all affected with deep cuts. There is one practice group that lost about 25% of their associates overnight. I know multiple associates that had to take substantial pay cuts or switch practice groups to get another job as these were awful conditions to be laid off into - I don't see why you would put yourself in that position if you can avoid it.

Similarly situated firms did not do what Goodwin did. There were a couple that did layoffs like McDermott and Nixon Peabody, and I am sure other firms pushed out people using covid as an excuse. But please carefully consider that Goodwin did stealth layoffs less than a month into the pandemic, firing 50-100 associates, almost entirely due to market conditions. They also just hired like 80 new associates which should make you suspicious as it indicates they plan to do this exact thing again.

They may have come off as "nice people" in the callback but considering what the partnership actually does in important. After the layoffs there were several town halls where management denied the layoffs and reiterated they were all performance related and with the way management presented it the only obvious takeaway was that they were furious they got caught. Plus WSGR is stronger in SF so that's icing on the cake.

[Anonymous User]

The EC/VC space and tech/biotech industries have been super strong, even through the pandemic so the fact that Goodwin resorted to stealth firing associates so quickly is a HUGE red flag that reflects poorly on their financial condition and their culture.

Thanks for your input. In your experience, what would this suggest? Financially, a firm of their caliber in the industries they sit in should be fine. So I'm ruling out their financial condition as a factor. I know they have no debt too. So why else would they do this? I see a lot of people -say- this is a red flag, and I agree, but the analysis as to -why- is still a mystery to me given their industries.

I'm the poster you're quoting - I'm not even a particular fan of WSGR, but feel like what Goodwin did was scummy. If you're trying to convince yourself that Goodwin is the place to be, go for it but my two cents is that Goodwin (at best) on par with WSGR and peers in the SF/SV (and that's a bit of a stretch), and the tiebreaker here for me would be the stealth layoffs. You can guess all day as the rationale as to why they did it, I doubt anyone will know for sure - the important fact is they did it at all..

[Anonymous User]

Just to reiterate what has already been said, the tech/biotech market has had a great year. Most firms in the area are hiring laterals like crazy, including WSGR. Goodwin laid people off.

[Anonymous User]

I know people who work in the recruiting space at Goodwin, and I’m anon because I’m assuming some of this stuff shouldn’t have been shared with me.

Goodwin’s hiring model is “overhire now and fire later.” They have two reviews a year, and apparently a handful of people are counseled out during both. March, when the “stealth” layoffs happened, is one of the normal review times. I think slightly more than the normal number of people were asked to leave. Goodwin also laid off a ton of staff during this time too.

Most firms don’t have two set dates to layoff associates, so that’s something to consider.

I still think Goodwin is a solid firm, but if your other option is WSGR, I don’t know if it would be wise to take Goodwin.

[Anonymous User]

I know people who work in the recruiting space at Goodwin, and I’m anon because I’m assuming some of this stuff shouldn’t have been shared with me.

Goodwin’s hiring model is “overhire now and fire later.” They have two reviews a year, and apparently a handful of people are counseled out during both. March, when the “stealth” layoffs happened, is one of the normal review times. I think slightly more than the normal number of people were asked to leave. Goodwin also laid off a ton of staff during this time too.

Most firms don’t have two set dates to layoff associates, so that’s something to consider.

I still think Goodwin is a solid firm, but if your other option is WSGR, I don’t know if it would be wise to take Goodwin.

Yeah this seems to echo what Goodwin associates were saying in the Fenwick vs Goodwin (SF) thread here: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=308658

This seems like a no-brainer for WSGR - despite strides Goodwin has made recently, they're still in the minors while WSGR is in the big leagues w/Cooley & Fenwick. But given that OP keeps trying to find reasons for Goodwin, might as well go there.

[lawbear2022]

2L going to one of Fenwick/Cooley/WSGR this summer (so take what I’m about to say with a grain of salt)

From everything I learned during my OCI experience, Goodwin is distinctly in the tier below those other three firms in the Bay Area. If subjectively you think you fit in better at Goodwin, then that’s worth something. But once I heard about the stealth layoff scenario, I crossed them off my list.

[Anonymous User]

Former Goodwin associate chiming in. To answer your question re: partner investment in associate growth, it depends. In my experience, partners invested the most time in developing white male associates; females and POC were largely overlooked. Was anyone ever hostile or aggressive towards me because I was not a white male? No, in social settings everyone was friendly. Do I feel that I wasn't taken seriously professionally, I wasn't seen as intelligent, and I wasn't given advancement opportunities because I was not a white male? Definitely. I would describe the environment as a friendly boys club. There would be messaging and trainings about things like microaggressions, but I didn't see that reflected in partner attitudes. Understood this problem isn't specific to Goodwin, but I lateraled from another firm in part because of the sales pitch I got about the firm's commitment to diversity and the advancement opportunities for people like me. In my experience it was all talk. Professionally, I was treated much better and was given more opportunities at the firm I had come from (and that firm made much less noise about their commitment to diversity).

[Anonymous User]

Another former Goodwin associate here, from an east coast office. Regarding the question about partners investing in associates, I’d say it was hit or miss. I had one or two partners that I had great relationships with and saw as real mentors, but otherwise most of my close mentors, the ones I would consider as invested in me and who really brought me along as a corporate lawyer, were senior and mid level associates (some of whom did make at least non-equity partner, to be fair). Those mentors were the ones I stayed in touch with when I left to go in-house.

Otherwise, partners ran the gamut. Some were pleasant enough but seemed uninterested in mentoring associates. Some had favorites they clearly had identified and focused on them, and everyone else got minimal contact except as needed for a deal. Some would try to mentor but were just stretched too thin to really invest the time. Some were nowhere near the actual day to day of a deal and may well have just been email addresses without a face as far as my intersection with them was concerned. And some were just garden variety assholes, who viewed associates as nothing more than overpaid cogs who they expected someone else to train.

[Anonymous User]

Former WSGR summer (not in SF), returning to WSGR in the fall. One piece of information that might be relevant to you is that WSGR gave us an above average stipend ($17.5k pre tax). From what I've read on this site (e.g. viewtopic.php?f=23&t=302229), most firm stipends are $10k. Admittedly our summer program was cut to six weeks, so monetarily it ended up being a wash. That said, I was quite pleased that WSGR didn't skimp on the stipend, especially as the word within my practice group is that we are as busy as we ever have been.