End of associate runway Forum

[Anonymous User]

Does anybody have any experience with, or any insight into, or any ability to comment on, a scenario where a senior associate is highly regarded with good/great evals, great rep, and a large number of hours worked consistently each year...but that nevertheless because it doesn’t make business sense, that associate is just not going to get promoted to junior partner/non equity/counsel/anything else? Again, nothing against that associate but it just isn’t going to happen.

Do the partners FYI that associate at some point? Is there like a year long soft push out? Would they start fabricating bad evals to cover themselves? Is there a talk? Or do they try to just keep that associate until that associate makes a move themselves?

Anybody have any experience with an associate voluntarily keeping billable rate and salary stagnant in similar circumstances, so as to avoid getting too expensive and to push off the end of the associate runway?

In a nutshell, the whole “what happens to good senior associates where such a small % of associates make partner” question is quite the mystery to me.

[Elston Gunn]

I was at a fairly old school firm, so YMMV, but an associate like that could have stayed indefinitely, and almost certainly would have gotten at least the title bump to counsel eventually (though I saw it take as much as 11th year). I can’t speak to whether there was an actual salary/bonus increase that went along with the title bump at that point.

[kaiser]

Does anybody have any experience with, or any insight into, or any ability to comment on, a scenario where a senior associate is highly regarded with good/great evals, great rep, and a large number of hours worked consistently each year...but that nevertheless because it doesn’t make business sense, that associate is just not going to get promoted to junior partner/non equity/counsel/anything else? Again, nothing against that associate but it just isn’t going to happen.

Do the partners FYI that associate at some point? Is there like a year long soft push out? Would they start fabricating bad evals to cover themselves? Is there a talk? Or do they try to just keep that associate until that associate makes a move themselves?

Anybody have any experience with an associate voluntarily keeping billable rate and salary stagnant in similar circumstances, so as to avoid getting too expensive and to push off the end of the associate runway?

In a nutshell, the whole “what happens to good senior associates where such a small % of associates make partner” question is quite the mystery to me.

I know someone who fit that description (i.e., well-regarded senior associate who wasn't really partner or counsel material). He was given as much time as he needed to line up his new role. He wasn't pressured at all, the firm quietly gave him some helpful resources, and some people internally worked their connections to help him out. Can't say whether every big firm would handle it the same way, but I have to think a majority would after that many years, especially if the associate is liked on a personal level by the people who matter. "Up or out" isn't meant to be a harsh and sudden hit to associates, as much as its simply a necessary reality of firm life that firms can handle humanely when needed (though not always).

[Anonymous User]

Does anybody have any experience with, or any insight into, or any ability to comment on, a scenario where a senior associate is highly regarded with good/great evals, great rep, and a large number of hours worked consistently each year...but that nevertheless because it doesn’t make business sense, that associate is just not going to get promoted to junior partner/non equity/counsel/anything else? Again, nothing against that associate but it just isn’t going to happen.

Do the partners FYI that associate at some point? Is there like a year long soft push out? Would they start fabricating bad evals to cover themselves? Is there a talk? Or do they try to just keep that associate until that associate makes a move themselves?

Anybody have any experience with an associate voluntarily keeping billable rate and salary stagnant in similar circumstances, so as to avoid getting too expensive and to push off the end of the associate runway?

In a nutshell, the whole “what happens to good senior associates where such a small % of associates make partner” question is quite the mystery to me.

At least at my firm, associates that are well liked/stellar attorneys generally get promoted to counsel if they don't make partner. As long as you're willing to put in 2k+ hours per year and do good work, there's really not a huge incentive for the firm to get rid of strong attorneys.

[Anonymous User]

I know someone who fit that description (i.e., well-regarded senior associate who wasn't really partner or counsel material). He was given as much time as he needed to line up his new role. He wasn't pressured at all, the firm quietly gave him some helpful resources, and some people internally worked their connections to help him out. Can't say whether every big firm would handle it the same way, but I have to think a majority would after that many years, especially if the associate is liked on a personal level by the people who matter. "Up or out" isn't meant to be a harsh and sudden hit to associates, as much as its simply a necessary reality of firm life that firms can handle humanely when needed (though not always).

If a senior associate is still billing 2k hours at a high enough level, what's the financial incentive to pushing them out? Salary get's stagnant at 8th year in any event. I never really understood the financial incentive at any firm with even a little bit of leverage in their P/A ratio.

[The Lsat Airbender]

I know someone who fit that description (i.e., well-regarded senior associate who wasn't really partner or counsel material). He was given as much time as he needed to line up his new role. He wasn't pressured at all, the firm quietly gave him some helpful resources, and some people internally worked their connections to help him out. Can't say whether every big firm would handle it the same way, but I have to think a majority would after that many years, especially if the associate is liked on a personal level by the people who matter. "Up or out" isn't meant to be a harsh and sudden hit to associates, as much as its simply a necessary reality of firm life that firms can handle humanely when needed (though not always).

If a senior associate is still billing 2k hours at a high enough level, what's the financial incentive to pushing them out? Salary get's stagnant at 8th year in any event. I never really understood the financial incentive at any firm with even a little bit of leverage in their P/A ratio.

Up-or-out isn't merely a financial decision. As in the military (where the term comes from), you need to keep the senior ranks fluid in order for the next generation of leaders to progress properly.

Agree that a good lawyer who hits hours targets will generally be kept on as a counsel, but it's a bad long-term strategy for a firm to have a bunch of super-senior associates with no advancement potential. Getting them to go in-house or to government is a win for everybody.

[Sackboy]

If a senior associate is still billing 2k hours at a high enough level, what's the financial incentive to pushing them out? Salary get's stagnant at 8th year in any event. I never really understood the financial incentive at any firm with even a little bit of leverage in their P/A ratio.

There really isn't anymore. You can just hang out at non-equity/counsel partner. If you bill 2k hours and are billing at $1000/hr., which is starting to become the low end of partner comp at shops V20-type shops, you're bringing in $2m. Assuming an 80% realization, that's $1.6m. After pay and benefits, that'd probably $1.1m. Probably after paying for support costs that's $800k that goes right to the equity partners. You're not going to get pushed out of the door at anywhere that is actually looking at the economics vs. tradition. This is why places like Cravath now have "practice area attorneys" and what not. Some V10 firms have entire departments without a single equity partner. Now, if you're a generalist M&A attorney, you'd kind of be dumb to stick around with that deal, because, if you hop enough, you will find equity with your deal sheet. For specialists, the best case can be sticking in non-equity hell indefinitely.

[Anonymous User]

Senior associates who hit their hours don't get forced out. What typically happens is that a senior associate has a bad year, either because there's not enough work to go around or he's disfavored in staffing decisions, and he's then given the talk. How this plays out varies by firm, but usually senior associates will have several months to look before they're officially let go.

Most senior associates know how this works, so after being passed over multiple years and seeing attorneys 2-3 classes junior get promoted, they leave on their own.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Does anybody have any experience with, or any insight into, or any ability to comment on, a scenario where a senior associate is highly regarded with good/great evals, great rep, and a large number of hours worked consistently each year...but that nevertheless because it doesn’t make business sense, that associate is just not going to get promoted to junior partner/non equity/counsel/anything else? Again, nothing against that associate but it just isn’t going to happen.

Do the partners FYI that associate at some point? Is there like a year long soft push out? Would they start fabricating bad evals to cover themselves? Is there a talk? Or do they try to just keep that associate until that associate makes a move themselves?

Anybody have any experience with an associate voluntarily keeping billable rate and salary stagnant in similar circumstances, so as to avoid getting too expensive and to push off the end of the associate runway?

In a nutshell, the whole “what happens to good senior associates where such a small % of associates make partner” question is quite the mystery to me.

A few points that haven't been made yet:

-Yes, you will get told long before you're actually up for partnership if you're not being considered, everywhere, unless your firm is full of shit. Some of them were/are notorious for telling people with no real chance that they could totally definitely make it if they work real hard for a couple more years. Works every time.

-Don't worry about keeping your salary and billable rate stagnant. On the former, they will handle that for you. On the latter, they won't do that at all, and will bill you out at whatever elevated sticker price they can get away with knowing every will discount to their own level. It'll only be a couple years before every single counsel+ in NYC Biglaw is over $1000/hour; most of them already are.

-Up-or-out is still a thing at many major firms but, as others noted, is on the decline and might now be the minority view. After Boomers pulled up the partnership ladder behind them, more and more firms began to realize there was no point in ditching good, high-revenue lawyers as long as you didn't have to cut them in. Hence the rise of the perma-counsel/non-equity partner position. Some practices lend themselves better than others to specialized For the foreseeable future, there will be a limit on the number of people who are willing to accept no promotions and only COL raises indefinitely. Some people are actually in a holding pattern for promotion at their current firm, some people are angling for that opportunity down the chain, some people are just building a nest egg, and a lot don't know what the fuck they're doing at all.

[Anonymous User]

Does anybody have any experience with, or any insight into, or any ability to comment on, a scenario where a senior associate is highly regarded with good/great evals, great rep, and a large number of hours worked consistently each year...but that nevertheless because it doesn’t make business sense, that associate is just not going to get promoted to junior partner/non equity/counsel/anything else? Again, nothing against that associate but it just isn’t going to happen.

Do the partners FYI that associate at some point? Is there like a year long soft push out? Would they start fabricating bad evals to cover themselves? Is there a talk? Or do they try to just keep that associate until that associate makes a move themselves?

Anybody have any experience with an associate voluntarily keeping billable rate and salary stagnant in similar circumstances, so as to avoid getting too expensive and to push off the end of the associate runway?

In a nutshell, the whole “what happens to good senior associates where such a small % of associates make partner” question is quite the mystery to me.

A few points that haven't been made yet:

-Yes, you will get told long before you're actually up for partnership if you're not being considered, everywhere, unless your firm is full of shit. Some of them were/are notorious for telling people with no real chance that they could totally definitely make it if they work real hard for a couple more years. Works every time.

-Don't worry about keeping your salary and billable rate stagnant. On the former, they will handle that for you. On the latter, they won't do that at all, and will bill you out at whatever elevated sticker price they can get away with knowing every will discount to their own level. It'll only be a couple years before every single counsel+ in NYC Biglaw is over $1000/hour; most of them already are.

-Up-or-out is still a thing at many major firms but, as others noted, is on the decline and might now be the minority view. After Boomers pulled up the partnership ladder behind them, more and more firms began to realize there was no point in ditching good, high-revenue lawyers as long as you didn't have to cut them in. Hence the rise of the perma-counsel/non-equity partner position. Some practices lend themselves better than others to specialized For the foreseeable future, there will be a limit on the number of people who are willing to accept no promotions and only COL raises indefinitely. Some people are actually in a holding pattern for promotion at their current firm, some people are angling for that opportunity down the chain, some people are just building a nest egg, and a lot don't know what the fuck they're doing at all.

The bold is me, and I'm totally fine with it. My only fear is that potential future employers will see me as the guy who couldn't make partner. But that fear isn't enough to get me off the gravy train.

[Anonymous User]

Senior associates who hit their hours don't get forced out. What typically happens is that a senior associate has a bad year, either because there's not enough work to go around or he's disfavored in staffing decisions, and he's then given the talk. How this plays out varies by firm, but usually senior associates will have several months to look before they're officially let go.

Most senior associates know how this works, so after being passed over multiple years and seeing attorneys 2-3 classes junior get promoted, they leave on their own.

With the other fact pattern being the senior associate who is strung along, and it's partially in good faith. At my firm once you get senior enough you're made counsel for a few years before being made partner, so a holding pattern. A senior I worked for at the time was eligible for counsel, and her partners told her she was up for promotion that year, and she didn't get it. Next year, same thing happened. She had two counsels and a junior partner above her, so the ladder was blocked, but she was crunched all the hours and did great work. My sense is that they would have been happy to put her up eventually, but how long was that going to take? She lateraled anyway, and presumably knew best.