Are no hours minimums real? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I know that Cravath officially tells us not to worry about hours, because they're not counted toward bonuses or salary, but it took me until this month to hit 100 hours of legal work. People say it picks up, you'll look back on these days and wish you could redo them, etc. but it isn't picking up. Whether you're at Cravath or another firm with no hours minimum, how real are they?

Is there a point at which you're in trouble, even if there's no hours minimum?

[Anonymous User]

I know that Cravath officially tells us not to worry about hours, because they're not counted toward bonuses or salary, but it took me until this month to hit 100 hours of legal work. People say it picks up, you'll look back on these days and wish you could redo them, etc. but it isn't picking up. Whether you're at Cravath or another firm with no hours minimum, how real are they?

Is there a point at which you're in trouble, even if there's no hours minimum?

As someone who used to work at Cravath, the no hours minimum (at least there) is real.

It's on the partners to give you work. Nobody cares what your actual billables are. The flip side is you don't really have control to seek out your own work, and if your group's pretty busy, you'll probably pass the 1950 or whatever standard.

But when times are slow and I had no work at 2 p.m., I really could completely chill.

[Anonymous User]

Is Cravath (overall) slow right now?

[Anonymous User]

.

[Anonymous User]

Is Cravath (overall) slow right now?

No clue. I don't work there anymore.

You can have some partner groups getting absolutely killed while other groups sit on their hands, though. M&A is more feast or famine than the others.

[Best]

I can't speak for any firm in particular, however, your employment by a firm costs them your salary + your overhead. One firm once told me that a first year costs them $170k a year in overhead. This includes, office space, insurance, resources, staff, events, etc. This would mean that the total for a first year, ignoring bonus, is $360,000. If you aren't billing more than $360,000, you're costing the firm money. Every dollar after that is thrown into the bonus pool for partners to profit. Of course, the overhead is different depending on office location, staffing, and a million other factors, but you get the idea.

As a first year, the firm is investing in you and likely accepts a loss. However, after a certain amount of time, the firm is going to expect to profit off you. This is embedded in firms with hour metrics. For firms with no hour minimums, the minimum of your overhead still exists. How long will a firm tolerate you being a net loss? Who knows. But at a certain point the firm will acknowledge you cost them money and cut you off.

For lawyers that are moving towards service practice groups or niche practices, there's more tolerance in the firm not needing to profit off you particularly, since they're using you to benefit another larger group.

[Anonymous User]

Sort of real at Kirkland. My first year I billed like 1250 hours (stub and covid) and got above market bonus. My paper review was normal, but I sort of got chewed out by the reviewer for having low hours. Work for me of course picked up pretty immediately after into a terrible onslaught through the new year.

[Anonymous User]

Sort of real at Kirkland. My first year I billed like 1250 hours (stub and covid) and got above market bonus. My paper review was normal, but I sort of got chewed out by the reviewer for having low hours. Work for me of course picked up pretty immediately after into a terrible onslaught through the new year.

I'm glad about that. I'm at a busy Kirkland office as a first year and have been really slow despite never turning down work and reaching out. Definitely slower than many of my peers (atleast that I talk to) who are getting wrecked with work. I think Covid has made it harder for them to efficiently allocate work in the free market system. In order to get to 2K hours I'd have to bill like over 250+ hours the rest of the year.

Much of the advice here says don't worry in your stub year. Since I started a month later than usual (due to covid we started in october) I've been telling myself that this past January should count as my stub year and that I shouldn't worry. Nothing really I can do at this point. And to be honest, I'm not jealous of my peers billing 300 as a first year.

[cavalier1138]

In order to get to 2K hours I'd have to bill like over 250+ hours the rest of the year.

It's February. Does Kirkland use some sort of weird fiscal year to calculate bonuses?

[Anonymous User]

In order to get to 2K hours I'd have to bill like over 250+ hours the rest of the year.

It's February. Does Kirkland use some sort of weird fiscal year to calculate bonuses?

September 1st to August 31st.

[Anonymous User]

Sort of real at Kirkland. My first year I billed like 1250 hours (stub and covid) and got above market bonus. My paper review was normal, but I sort of got chewed out by the reviewer for having low hours. Work for me of course picked up pretty immediately after into a terrible onslaught through the new year.

I'm glad about that. I'm at a busy Kirkland office as a first year and have been really slow despite never turning down work and reaching out. Definitely slower than many of my peers (atleast that I talk to) who are getting wrecked with work. I think Covid has made it harder for them to efficiently allocate work in the free market system. In order to get to 2K hours I'd have to bill like over 250+ hours the rest of the year.

Much of the advice here says don't worry in your stub year. Since I started a month later than usual (due to covid we started in october) I've been telling myself that this past January should count as my stub year and that I shouldn't worry. Nothing really I can do at this point. And to be honest, I'm not jealous of my peers billing 300 as a first year.

I have basically the same problem, except Cravath started us in November and it's closer to 180 for the rest of the year. Like someone said above, some groups in Cravath are slammed, but others aren't necessarily. Some of my peers are also slow, so I feel better. Also helps to know it's similar at a comparable firm like K&E.

And thank you @Best. That was a very helpful breakdown and way to look at it.

[2013]

The way I’ve always understood no hours limits is that the firm expects you to bill a certain amount (let’s say 2,000+), but you aren’t going to be penalized for not hitting it.

However no hours limit firms tend to be higher ranked, busier firms, so it isn’t going to be too common to have associates regularly bill 1500 hours a year.

[Anonymous User]

It's pretty damn real at Cleary.

[Anonymous User]

I went four straight years under 1500 at a V50 no-hours firm and got my bonus every time. Never turned down work, regularly asked for it actually, and had really good reviews. I had to leave for personal reasons so it's possible as I got more senior, their attitude may have shifted, but there was no sign of that at all while I was there.

[Anonymous User]

As someone who used to work at Cravath, the no hours minimum (at least there) is real.

It's on the partners to give you work. Nobody cares what your actual billables are. The flip side is you don't really have control to seek out your own work, and if your group's pretty busy, you'll probably pass the 1950 or whatever standard.

But when times are slow and I had no work at 2 p.m., I really could completely chill.

Is this true for most, or at least many, firms without minimum hours or is Cravath an outlier?

[Anonymous User]

Sort of real at Kirkland. My first year I billed like 1250 hours (stub and covid) and got above market bonus. My paper review was normal, but I sort of got chewed out by the reviewer for having low hours. Work for me of course picked up pretty immediately after into a terrible onslaught through the new year.

I'm glad about that. I'm at a busy Kirkland office as a first year and have been really slow despite never turning down work and reaching out. Definitely slower than many of my peers (atleast that I talk to) who are getting wrecked with work. I think Covid has made it harder for them to efficiently allocate work in the free market system. In order to get to 2K hours I'd have to bill like over 250+ hours the rest of the year.

Much of the advice here says don't worry in your stub year. Since I started a month later than usual (due to covid we started in october) I've been telling myself that this past January should count as my stub year and that I shouldn't worry. Nothing really I can do at this point. And to be honest, I'm not jealous of my peers billing 300 as a first year.

If you’re in Corporate then you need to do more reaching out. It’s not the job of the firm or the partners to “efficiently allocate work” to you in the open assignment system. It’s on you to control your own workflow (for better or for worse). There’s plenty of work to go around and a lot of deals starting now.

[Anonymous User]

OP again.

I trust others at the firm who are saying Cravath's no hours minimum is real. But is it OK to duck work once you bill more than 200 hours for the month, assuming you're on track to hit 2400/year? Does the absence of a minimum mean I should just keep working? Seems like at most firms once you're on track for whatever the minimum is you can relax, but I worry that's harder to justify if there's no minimum.

Edit: In case it's not obvious, work picked up between when I first made this thread.

[Anonymous User]

OP again.

I trust others at the firm who are saying Cravath's no hours minimum is real. But is it OK to duck work once you bill more than 200 hours for the month, assuming you're on track to hit 2400/year? Does the absence of a minimum mean I should just keep working? Seems like at most firms once you're on track for whatever the minimum is you can relax, but I worry that's harder to justify if there's no minimum.

Edit: In case it's not obvious, work picked up between when I first made this thread.

Cravath says that there is no minimum and somewhat true, but I understand a couple people were asked to leave when they were consistently billing less than 2000 or something like that while the firm was busy (so... maybe they were ducking work).

If you’re low on hours KD will make you do cite checking or document review randomly probably.

Partners also keep track so proceed at your own peril haha.

[Anonymous User]

Incoming Cravath first year and posting here because this appears to be the latest thread somewhat specific to Cravath. First, is there any way to start earlier than November? I thought in normal years it was an option between September/October and it was only November last year due to covid. Definitely don't want to wait until November to start working (need $$). Do we get the opportunity to give them a preference or are start dates assigned randomly? Second, and back on topic, but I thought the inability to dodge work was implicitly a hallmark of the Cravath system (i.e. more difficult to dodge work when you're working exclusively for a small team of partners)?

[lolwutpar]

Yes, it's real. Worked at a firm with no requirement and never heard of anyone getting canned for low hours - if you were fired, it was for something else (not being liked + getting too senior, usually)

[Anonymous User]

Incoming Cravath first year and posting here because this appears to be the latest thread somewhat specific to Cravath. First, is there any way to start earlier than November? I thought in normal years it was an option between September/October and it was only November last year due to covid. Definitely don't want to wait until November to start working (need $$). Do we get the opportunity to give them a preference or are start dates assigned randomly? Second, and back on topic, but I thought the inability to dodge work was implicitly a hallmark of the Cravath system (i.e. more difficult to dodge work when you're working exclusively for a small team of partners)?

They made us all start in November, even those of us who wanted to and were ready to start earlier.