Taking fav precedent docs when going in house Forum

[Anonymous User]

Senior associate here, jumping in house in the next two months or so. Over the years I have collected a treasure box of my favorite precedent and form documents, both ones I have worked on and ones I have found on the system created by other senior attorneys. I had found it easier to have local copies saved in a folder so that I can have them at my fingertips. I would like to take a copy of these with me when I jump - has anyone done this when they left a firm? I'd be more wary if I were going to another firm and intended to use for another client, but this would just be for my own reference as in house counsel. I don't want to get in trouble with the firm if IT actively scans for this kind of thing though. FWIW, the company I am going to uses my current firm.

[tyroneslothrop1]

That's technically firm property, and possibly confidential/trade secret material. I would talk to a partner about this, and document it in an email or something. You don't want to have this somehow discovered down the road, and have it seem like something you did secretly. I personally don't think its a big deal, especially since you are going in-house to a client, but I'd talk to somebody. This is not legal advice.

[TheoO]

This is a massive no no.

[Anonymous User]

Technically you shouldn't do it, but IT doesn't check for that, and since you're not going to a competitor or starting your own practice, I don't think anyone will really care.

[jimmythecatdied6]

That's technically firm property, and possibly confidential/trade secret material. I would talk to a partner about this, and document it in an email or something. You don't want to have this somehow discovered down the road, and have it seem like something you did secretly. I personally don't think its a big deal, especially since you are going in-house to a client, but I'd talk to somebody. This is not legal advice.

Thanks for clarifying that this is not legal advice. ........................

[Dcc617]

Is there a way anyone is going to find out? If not, and it's just for personal use, then how will it ever be a problem?

[Anonymous User]

Is there a way anyone is going to find out? If not, and it's just for personal use, then how will it ever be a problem?

OP here - I guess I was worried IT would somehow have a way of scanning for local docs that were copied out in a USB, for example.

[Anonymous User]

Is there a way anyone is going to find out? If not, and it's just for personal use, then how will it ever be a problem?

OP here - I guess I was worried IT would somehow have a way of scanning for local docs that were copied out in a USB, for example.

Kinda surprised by some of the responses here (e.g., "this is a big no no"). We all know what policies and best practices are -- think if OP wanted answer like "this is a big no no" he would have just asked his firm GC this question.

In an effort to try and be helpful, see if there is someone whom you trust that might know the answer to what the firm's IT can or cannot find out about. I had heard that IT can tell if you copied docs out to USB, but can't see what docs were copied to the cloud (but they can see that you did upload stuff to the cloud). Additionally, pretty sure IT can spy on all of our screens if they want to when you are hooked up to VPN, so they could see you asking this question on TLS - seems unlikely they would actually do this.

In reality, I think it is a risk, and there is probably a way for them to find out you took something (even if they don't know exactly what you took). You should weigh how much you want the docs against how likely you think IT would actually check to see if anything was transferred or uploaded (my guess is that the IT ppl have no interest in doing anything of the sort and will only do so if there is a specific request or policy in place for them to double check) and how likely you think the firm would make it an issue if they found out about it (given you likely sign stuff on your way out saying you won't do it).

Obviously, the "HR approved" way to do this would be to try and go through, redact all sensitive info, and then seek permission from a partner who you think is mostly likely to say "sure" - given that you are moving in-house, they actually might be cool with it as you are now moving from lowly workhorse to client.

[TheoO]

Is there a way anyone is going to find out? If not, and it's just for personal use, then how will it ever be a problem?

OP here - I guess I was worried IT would somehow have a way of scanning for local docs that were copied out in a USB, for example.

Kinda surprised by some of the responses here (e.g., "this is a big no no"). We all know what policies and best practices are -- think if OP wanted answer like "this is a big no no" he would have just asked his firm GC this question.

In an effort to try and be helpful, see if there is someone whom you trust that might know the answer to what the firm's IT can or cannot find out about. I had heard that IT can tell if you copied docs out to USB, but can't see what docs were copied to the cloud (but they can see that you did upload stuff to the cloud). Additionally, pretty sure IT can spy on all of our screens if they want to when you are hooked up to VPN, so they could see you asking this question on TLS - seems unlikely they would actually do this.

In reality, I think it is a risk, and there is probably a way for them to find out you took something (even if they don't know exactly what you took). You should weigh how much you want the docs against how likely you think IT would actually check to see if anything was transferred or uploaded (my guess is that the IT ppl have no interest in doing anything of the sort and will only do so if there is a specific request or policy in place for them to double check) and how likely you think the firm would make it an issue if they found out about it (given you likely sign stuff on your way out saying you won't do it).

Obviously, the "HR approved" way to do this would be to try and go through, redact all sensitive info, and then seek permission from a partner who you think is mostly likely to say "sure" - given that you are moving in-house, they actually might be cool with it as you are now moving from lowly workhorse to client.

"I know someone said this is in pretty direct contravention of firm policy, but the OP is asking if there was any way of getting caught".

Got it...

The firm very likely can monitor emails going out, and potentially may have the ability to block data from going into a usb. I certainly know banks that prevent this and even scan emails (I know someone was flagged once for sending me documents that were internal to the bank--they werent trying to do anything untoward just wanted to send something that I could forward for home work). I don't know that most firms actually have this much security, though, and I've sent emails to my gmail account in a number of occasions when I wanted to switch computers for work.

Will the firm find out? Highly unlikely. Should you do it? I still say no.

[Elston Gunn]

It’s essentially impossible to imagine a law firm bothering to try to sue (or file a complaint about) a former associate who otherwise presumably left on good terms and is a potential source of future business over some generic precedent documents. But yeah I guess there’s some risk.

[Anonymous User]

I emailed docs and links to my personal gmail a few times (before I realized we aren't supposed to ). I doubt most firms have IT monitoring email so granularly that this would ever be caught, but if you're worried just talk to a partner you trust about it.

[avenuem]

This thread is like law school all over again. It's horrifying to see so much misinformation.

Well-run biglaw firms do check for this type of stuff. You will get caught trying to steal documents if you're at one of them.

https://vtbarcounsel.wordpress.com/2019 ... -law-firm/
https://abovethelaw.com/2020/01/data-se ... ob-search/
https://ipethicslaw.com/dont-let-the-sc ... ing-firms/

[Anonymous User]

I mean, if the precedent document is publicly available (e.g., golden cross-complaint, MSJ, etc), I don't see the harm or wrongdoing in taking it with you? You could easily download it off Westlaw. I tend to think the same about non-filed, yet still public documents (e.g., discovery deficiency letters or M&C letters that you sent to opposing counsel). Firms constantly copy and paste from each other, and it's likely that the documents you consider the 'gold standard' are actually regurgitated documents from other firms/public filings.

I struggle to see how any of this is 'trade secret.' Even if it is firm work product, so what? Does your contract say that you are prohibited from using firm work product at your next job? And even if your contract does say so, does it have a remedy for violation of that clause? Absent an explicit remedy I don't see what the "harm" to your firm would be.

[Anonymous User]

I mean, if the precedent document is publicly available (e.g., golden cross-complaint, MSJ, etc), I don't see the harm or wrongdoing in taking it with you? You could easily download it off Westlaw. I tend to think the same about non-filed, yet still public documents (e.g., discovery deficiency letters or M&C letters that you sent to opposing counsel). Firms constantly copy and paste from each other, and it's likely that the documents you consider the 'gold standard' are actually regurgitated documents from other firms/public filings.

I struggle to see how any of this is 'trade secret.' Even if it is firm work product, so what? Does your contract say that you are prohibited from using firm work product at your next job? And even if your contract does say so, does it have a remedy for violation of that clause? Absent an explicit remedy I don't see what the "harm" to your firm would be.

[Anonymous User]

This thread is like law school all over again. It's horrifying to see so much misinformation.

Well-run biglaw firms do check for this type of stuff. You will get caught trying to steal documents if you're at one of them.

https://vtbarcounsel.wordpress.com/2019 ... -law-firm/
https://abovethelaw.com/2020/01/data-se ... ob-search/
https://ipethicslaw.com/dont-let-the-sc ... ing-firms/

Only the third link has any info relevant to the question of whether it is okay to take some template docs when you leave to go in-house, and all it says is that as a technical matter you shouldn’t do it. Which is consistent with the general advice in this thread—that it’s not strictly kosher but unlikely to be an issue in practice.

Clearly, you shouldn’t take 20,000 client files when leaving your firm (presumably to start a competing firm, though unclear), as the woman in the first link did.

But, yes, the firm does keep records of all your emails/stuff that happens on your computer and could easily investigate if they cared to. Talking to a partner and asking permission is safest.

Accidental anon: Elston Gunn.

[legalpotato]

This thread is like law school all over again. It's horrifying to see so much misinformation.

Well-run biglaw firms do check for this type of stuff. You will get caught trying to steal documents if you're at one of them.

https://vtbarcounsel.wordpress.com/2019 ... -law-firm/
https://abovethelaw.com/2020/01/data-se ... ob-search/
https://ipethicslaw.com/dont-let-the-sc ... ing-firms/

One of the most ironic posts I've seen on TLS in a while.

[Kikero]

Echoing what a couple of posters above have said, law firms can easily find out about this. I actually got contacted by my firm’s IT department a while back because they noticed I moved a bunch of local files to a usb drive. This wasn’t even in connection with leaving the firm, I was just getting a new firm-issued laptop and wanted to move the documents over, so at least some firms monitor this regularly.