No Offer Firms in the V50 Forum

[Sixtyfour46]

I'd like to know which firms typically have anything less than a 100% offer rate for their summers. Considering a couple offers and in this economy, want to make sure to choose the most secure long term place. NALP is unreliable, firms lie or fudge their statistics, so if you know of a friend or classmate, or were in a summer class where someone was no offered!! Alternatively if you have it on good authority that a firm is 100% offer please post that too. Stories welcome

Please post firm and office. I'm personally focused on the SF Bay Area but lets open it up geographically.

Note that 2020 was kind of a weird year where many firms felt pressured to give 100% offer rates, so prior years are better indicators!

Particularly interested in the following, but feel free to hop in with other firms:

Cooley SF or SV
WSGR SF or SV
Fenwick SF or SV
Goodwin SF or SV
Morgan Lewis SF or SV
Sidley SF or SV
Simpson Thacher SV
Davis Polk SV
Kirkland SF or SV
White & Case SV
Sheppard Mullin SF or SV

[Anonymous User]

I summered at one of the below firms. One person in my summer class was no offered and committed several transgressions including

- white-power comment in front of a partner's husband
- misogynistic comment that men are smarter than women

To be honest, I was relieved when I found out he was no offered because he made me extremely uncomfortable. So just keep in mind that firms reserve the right to no offer.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know of Goodwin NYC?

[Anonymous User]

I'd like to know which firms typically have anything less than a 100% offer rate for their summers. Considering a couple offers and in this economy, want to make sure to choose the most secure long term place. NALP is unreliable, firms lie or fudge their statistics, so if you know of a friend or classmate, or were in a summer class where someone was no offered!! Alternatively if you have it on good authority that a firm is 100% offer please post that too. Stories welcome

Please post firm and office. I'm personally focused on the SF Bay Area but lets open it up geographically.

Note that 2020 was kind of a weird year where many firms felt pressured to give 100% offer rates, so prior years are better indicators!

Particularly interested in the following, but feel free to hop in with other firms:

Cooley SF or SV
WSGR SF or SV
Fenwick SF or SV
Goodwin SF or SV
Morgan Lewis SF or SV
Sidley SF or SV
Simpson Thacher SV
Davis Polk SV
Kirkland SF or SV
White & Case SV
Sheppard Mullin SF or SV

Did you already get an offer for Sidley, Simpson Thacher, and Kirkland? To answer your question, I heard Sidley and STB gave everyone offers, though summer program was reduced in length. Unsure about Kirkland.

[Anonymous User]

I would recommend loosening your criteria to like 99% offers instead of 100%, because every year there seem to be people no-offered for good reason. For example, in 2019 a Baker Botts summer apparently tried to sexually harass/assault one of the recruiters and got immediately axed for it. I don’t think anyone would say that the firm getting rid of that guy (and thus falling below 100%) wasn’t a good thing.


Remember that if you look up stats online and see like one or two no offers out of a large number, there’s no way to know whether it’s a situation like this or some bullshit by the firm. I personally ignore a single no offer and look for multiple.

[ksmolloy]

Once you have an offer, you can ask the firm about the no offer and find out what happened.

[Anonymous User]

I am not aware of any firms on that list that regularly no-offer summers. What NALP statistics and even anecdotal evidence won't capture is how often firms "cold-offer" summers, which is when a firm technically extends an offer, but the firm thinks the summer should strongly consider other options and their prospects at the firm are limited upon arrival. It's basically impossible to know how many people are cold-offered at these firms unless people volunteer that they were cold-offered (and law students won't do that).

But since none of those firms routinely no-offer people, you at least don't need to compete aggressively against your fellow summers for a spot. You can rest easy knowing that if you meet at least a basic level of performance, you're good. As a summer, your work product needs to be timely and show that you put in the effort. No one's going to expect you to run the deal of the century or come up with ground-breaking legal arguments.

Also, keep in mind that you have no idea what the economy will be like when you start as a summer associate or as a first year. When the c/o 2020 associates were going through OCI in 2018, things were great. There was absolutely no indication that a ton of firms would defer people to January or February. Similarly, the c/o 2021 had no way to predict that summer programs would be virtual, and would possibly be cut down (both in terms of time and pay). So all you can do is make the best decision you can with the information you have at hand, and always prepare yourself for the fact that when it comes to employment, nothing is certain.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know of Goodwin NYC?

I was a summer in this office - 100% offers firmwide this year.

[Sixtyfour46]

I am not aware of any firms on that list that regularly no-offer summers. What NALP statistics and even anecdotal evidence won't capture is how often firms "cold-offer" summers, which is when a firm technically extends an offer, but the firm thinks the summer should strongly consider other options and their prospects at the firm are limited upon arrival. It's basically impossible to know how many people are cold-offered at these firms unless people volunteer that they were cold-offered (and law students won't do that).

But since none of those firms routinely no-offer people, you at least don't need to compete aggressively against your fellow summers for a spot. You can rest easy knowing that if you meet at least a basic level of performance, you're good. As a summer, your work product needs to be timely and show that you put in the effort. No one's going to expect you to run the deal of the century or come up with ground-breaking legal arguments.

Also, keep in mind that you have no idea what the economy will be like when you start as a summer associate or as a first year. When the c/o 2020 associates were going through OCI in 2018, things were great. There was absolutely no indication that a ton of firms would defer people to January or February. Similarly, the c/o 2021 had no way to predict that summer programs would be virtual, and would possibly be cut down (both in terms of time and pay). So all you can do is make the best decision you can with the information you have at hand, and always prepare yourself for the fact that when it comes to employment, nothing is certain.

thank you for this. you helped answer some of my concerns, and the last paragraph was particularly on point.

[Anonymous User]

A little off topic/outside of the V50 but is the firm info on Vault definitely correct? Steptoe & Johnson vault says they had 25 summers in 2020 but only gave 15 2L offers - do they really no-offer over a third of their summers? or does anyone know if that's true of them generally?

[Anonymous User]

Curious about Norton Rose Fulbright from this standpoint. I've seen a comment online suggesting this and would love to get more insight.