Likelihood of IP Biglaw? (Top Engineering undergrad and T13)

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jackedimuschadimus

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Likelihood of IP Biglaw? (Top Engineering undergrad and T13)

Post by jackedimuschadimus » Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:41 pm

Going to Berkeley Law next year at a half discount. Have a BS in mechanical engineering from MIT/Stanford/Berkeley engineering. Is 1L SA and 2L SA basically guaranteed? Could I just coast with all P's and walk out with 10 big firm offers?

jackedimuschadimus

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Re: Likelihood of IP Biglaw? (Top Engineering undergrad and T13)

Post by jackedimuschadimus » Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:44 pm

Also should add that I have patent bar registration number (passed patent bar)

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Re: Likelihood of IP Biglaw? (Top Engineering undergrad and T13)

Post by stupididiot » Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:54 pm

Do you want prosecution or litigation? For litigation, firms usually want higher grades, especially in something like legal writing. Also for litigation, especially if you want appellate litigation, a clerkship also helps (but is not required) which also requires good grades.

If you want prosecution, you will probably be fine with a ME degree from a top undergrad and a Berkeley law degree. But not ME is less desirable than either EE, CS, or advanced chem. I dont think anyone really cares about patent bar registration (maybe it shows some commitment or something, but you arent going to be using your number to send stuff to patent offices as a 1L or 2L anyway). Also, a lot of biglaw firms are supposedly scaling back or even spinning off their prosecution departments completely, so just be aware.

In any case, with your bg you should be in a decent spot to get a 1L SA and certainly a 2L SA if you are geographically flexible and looking for prosecution.

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Re: Likelihood of IP Biglaw? (Top Engineering undergrad and T13)

Post by jackedimuschadimus » Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:04 pm

stupididiot wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:54 pm
Do you want prosecution or litigation? For litigation, firms usually want higher grades, especially in something like legal writing. Also for litigation, especially if you want appellate litigation, a clerkship also helps (but is not required) which also requires good grades.

If you want prosecution, you will probably be fine with a ME degree from a top undergrad and a Berkeley law degree. But not ME is less desirable than either EE, CS, or advanced chem. I dont think anyone really cares about patent bar registration (maybe it shows some commitment or something, but you arent going to be using your number to send stuff to patent offices as a 1L or 2L anyway). Also, a lot of biglaw firms are supposedly scaling back or even spinning off their prosecution departments completely, so just be aware.

In any case, with your bg you should be in a decent spot to get a 1L SA and certainly a 2L SA if you are geographically flexible and looking for prosecution.
Yeah, I'm aware that big general practice firms are closing their prosecution shops. I'm more gunning for Knobbe/Fish/Finnegan, the big IP boutiques. I am slightly more interested in prosecution. Do grades even matter for pros? (I.e: Can I just coast with all P's at Boalt) Also, im not how covid affects the job market, people on reddit are saying above median T14's (not-IP tho) are getting 0 callbacks for big firms, yikes

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Re: Likelihood of IP Biglaw? (Top Engineering undergrad and T13)

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:01 pm

Patent litigator here (V10 patent lit group). Your credentials are certainly strong, although you can't completely slack off in law school. I can't speak to OCI this cycle, but firms are willing to dip a little lower (for both grades and law school ranking) for a candidate with the right credentials. I always thought that patent lit was easier to get than patent pros, but that might have changed over the years.

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Re: Likelihood of IP Biglaw? (Top Engineering undergrad and T13)

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:01 pm
Patent litigator here (V10 patent lit group). Your credentials are certainly strong, although you can't completely slack off in law school. I can't speak to OCI this cycle, but firms are willing to dip a little lower (for both grades and law school ranking) for a candidate with the right credentials. I always thought that patent lit was easier to get than patent pros, but that might have changed over the years.
In your eyes, do I have the "right credentials" to warrant the "lower dip"? If so, about where do you think I could be in my law school class to get lit offers? Also, Berkeley does not have grades so actually theoretically, top 40% grades could and sometimes in practice, get the same grades as those in the bottom 1%. The grading scheme is weird and like HYS (top 10% High honors, top 40% Honors, everybody else = Pass), so Berkeley really helps to hide the students below median. Could I get away with all P's?

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Re: Likelihood of IP Biglaw? (Top Engineering undergrad and T13)

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:13 pm

jackedimuschadimus wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:04 pm
stupididiot wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:54 pm
Do you want prosecution or litigation? For litigation, firms usually want higher grades, especially in something like legal writing. Also for litigation, especially if you want appellate litigation, a clerkship also helps (but is not required) which also requires good grades.

If you want prosecution, you will probably be fine with a ME degree from a top undergrad and a Berkeley law degree. But not ME is less desirable than either EE, CS, or advanced chem. I dont think anyone really cares about patent bar registration (maybe it shows some commitment or something, but you arent going to be using your number to send stuff to patent offices as a 1L or 2L anyway). Also, a lot of biglaw firms are supposedly scaling back or even spinning off their prosecution departments completely, so just be aware.

In any case, with your bg you should be in a decent spot to get a 1L SA and certainly a 2L SA if you are geographically flexible and looking for prosecution.
Yeah, I'm aware that big general practice firms are closing their prosecution shops. I'm more gunning for Knobbe/Fish/Finnegan, the big IP boutiques. I am slightly more interested in prosecution. Do grades even matter for pros? (I.e: Can I just coast with all P's at Boalt) Also, im not how covid affects the job market, people on reddit are saying above median T14's (not-IP tho) are getting 0 callbacks for big firms, yikes
No idea on Knobbe, but a ME undergrad degree and a t14 certainly does not guarantee offers at Fish and Finnegan (and certainly not 1L offers). Especially if you are aiming for one of Fish/Finnegan's secondary offices, which tend to be very small (fwiw, I was top 10% at HYS + grad ME and didnt get a callback at one of fish/finnegan's secondary offices).

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Re: Likelihood of IP Biglaw? (Top Engineering undergrad and T13)

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:22 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:01 pm
Patent litigator here (V10 patent lit group). Your credentials are certainly strong, although you can't completely slack off in law school. I can't speak to OCI this cycle, but firms are willing to dip a little lower (for both grades and law school ranking) for a candidate with the right credentials. I always thought that patent lit was easier to get than patent pros, but that might have changed over the years.
In your eyes, do I have the "right credentials" to warrant the "lower dip"? If so, about where do you think I could be in my law school class to get lit offers? Also, Berkeley does not have grades so actually theoretically, top 40% grades could and sometimes in practice, get the same grades as those in the bottom 1%. The grading scheme is weird and like HYS (top 10% High honors, top 40% Honors, everybody else = Pass), so Berkeley really helps to hide the students below median. Could I get away with all P's?
I'm not familiar with Berkeley's grading system, and it's hard to say exactly how low you can go. I got multiple offers for patent litigation from V10/20/50 firms, and I was only top 20% at a T20 (and my undergrad was from a state school with average grades). But I also went through OCI a few years ago when it wasn't the bloodbath it has been this year. Don't go in with the mindset of "I can get all P's and be fine," but you also don't need to worry if you're not in the top 5-10%

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Re: Likelihood of IP Biglaw? (Top Engineering undergrad and T13)

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:15 pm

Berkeley Law 2L here.

With an ME background and patent reg, you're in a really good position, and it's entirely possible for you to network your way to a 1L SA position before you even finish your first semester (hint go to BCLT lunch talks). And while pros is less competitive than lit, everyone interested in pros is gunning for Knobbe/Fish/Finegan so straight Ps may not cut it.

For 2L SA I have no idea how competitive pros is (because all my friends switched to lit lol). But I imagine spots are limited because of 1Ls who return to their firms. So again, having a few Hs and HHs on your transcript go a long way

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Re: Likelihood of IP Biglaw? (Top Engineering undergrad and T13)

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:39 am

I'll tell you what. You may get interviews from Fish/Finnegan/Knobbe, but you will strike out with that mindset/attitude.
Plus, if you are somewhat close to a KJD, an undergrad ME from MIT/Berkeley/Stanford doesn't mean much other than you are patent bar eligible (which you already have, but firms don't care about PTO license for summers), because, basically what you have is the minimum credential they'll consider. There are plenty of folks out there with PhDs and 5+ yrs engineering/examiner experience.
Compare to general lit or corporate, there may be fewer # of candidates for patent pros, BUT they all aim for the same type of firms, and there are WAY, WAY fewer spots for patent pros. AND, firms already have some (agents/tech specs/student associates) in their pipeline, so they don't need that many summers. Some firms don't even hire summers for patent pros.
Do your best.

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Re: Likelihood of IP Biglaw? (Top Engineering undergrad and T13)

Post by jotarokujo » Tue May 04, 2021 11:28 pm

my sense has been that ip lit is more grade conscious than general lit, and that's assuming you have some stem degree. could be wrong tho, i've never been in a hiring position for this. i do get the sense that if you have a stem degree, it's less competitive than appellate lit, for example

patent pros is probably less grade conscious

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Re: Likelihood of IP Biglaw? (Top Engineering undergrad and T13)

Post by Anonymous User » Wed May 05, 2021 12:29 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:15 pm
Berkeley Law 2L here.

With an ME background and patent reg, you're in a really good position, and it's entirely possible for you to network your way to a 1L SA position before you even finish your first semester (hint go to BCLT lunch talks). And while pros is less competitive than lit, everyone interested in pros is gunning for Knobbe/Fish/Finegan so straight Ps may not cut it.

For 2L SA I have no idea how competitive pros is (because all my friends switched to lit lol). But I imagine spots are limited because of 1Ls who return to their firms. So again, having a few Hs and HHs on your transcript go a long way
I'm a few years removed from summering. I will say that in my experience patent groups (lit and pros groups in both GPs and IP boutiques) have been trending more and more toward hiring 1Ls. This was pre-covid. But at the time, firms were competing heavily for people with the right credentials (i.e. right tech + good law school/grades) and were willing to bring them in for two summers (can also lead to a longer 2L summer and more $$$). If you do get in as a 1L, many practices seem amenable to allowing 1L summers split time between lit and pros to get a feel.

All in all, IP is less competitive than other areas because fewer people have credentials and/or are interested. That being said, there is always competition toward the top, and good grades go a long way.

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Re: Likelihood of IP Biglaw? (Top Engineering undergrad and T13)

Post by jotarokujo » Wed May 05, 2021 11:33 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 12:29 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:15 pm
Berkeley Law 2L here.

With an ME background and patent reg, you're in a really good position, and it's entirely possible for you to network your way to a 1L SA position before you even finish your first semester (hint go to BCLT lunch talks). And while pros is less competitive than lit, everyone interested in pros is gunning for Knobbe/Fish/Finegan so straight Ps may not cut it.

For 2L SA I have no idea how competitive pros is (because all my friends switched to lit lol). But I imagine spots are limited because of 1Ls who return to their firms. So again, having a few Hs and HHs on your transcript go a long way
I'm a few years removed from summering. I will say that in my experience patent groups (lit and pros groups in both GPs and IP boutiques) have been trending more and more toward hiring 1Ls. This was pre-covid. But at the time, firms were competing heavily for people with the right credentials (i.e. right tech + good law school/grades) and were willing to bring them in for two summers (can also lead to a longer 2L summer and more $$$). If you do get in as a 1L, many practices seem amenable to allowing 1L summers split time between lit and pros to get a feel.

All in all, IP is less competitive than other areas because fewer people have credentials and/or are interested. That being said, there is always competition toward the top, and good grades go a long way.
i'd still put ip lit as more grade conscious than transactional or general lit tho

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Re: Likelihood of IP Biglaw? (Top Engineering undergrad and T13)

Post by Spartan_Alum_12 » Wed May 05, 2021 11:49 am

jackedimuschadimus wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:04 pm
stupididiot wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:54 pm
Do you want prosecution or litigation? For litigation, firms usually want higher grades, especially in something like legal writing. Also for litigation, especially if you want appellate litigation, a clerkship also helps (but is not required) which also requires good grades.

If you want prosecution, you will probably be fine with a ME degree from a top undergrad and a Berkeley law degree. But not ME is less desirable than either EE, CS, or advanced chem. I dont think anyone really cares about patent bar registration (maybe it shows some commitment or something, but you arent going to be using your number to send stuff to patent offices as a 1L or 2L anyway). Also, a lot of biglaw firms are supposedly scaling back or even spinning off their prosecution departments completely, so just be aware.

In any case, with your bg you should be in a decent spot to get a 1L SA and certainly a 2L SA if you are geographically flexible and looking for prosecution.
Yeah, I'm aware that big general practice firms are closing their prosecution shops. I'm more gunning for Knobbe/Fish/Finnegan, the big IP boutiques. I am slightly more interested in prosecution. Do grades even matter for pros? (I.e: Can I just coast with all P's at Boalt) Also, im not how covid affects the job market, people on reddit are saying above median T14's (not-IP tho) are getting 0 callbacks for big firms, yikes
You certainly can get prosecution jobs (BSME isn't great, but still fine at enough places), but may find getting litigation jobs easier given Berkeley law. It's hard to know which one you want before going to law school and working at a firm IMO. I'd keep an open mind. If you enjoy the "lawyerly" aspects more than the technical aspects, litigation is probably a better fit. Vice versa and prosecution is probably a better fit.

Keep in mind prosecution work can be pretty brutal for some clients given the low fixed fee aspect of it (probably a major reason why big firms are downsizing it). Hitting billables can be difficult. Litigation doesn't have these issues but is more unpredictable and stressful.

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Re: Likelihood of IP Biglaw? (Top Engineering undergrad and T13)

Post by Anonymous User » Thu May 06, 2021 5:18 pm

Apart from the kind of odd "can I just coast?" attitude, starting with an ME from one of those schools (weird list honestly - not sure I'd equate those three but whatever) is not a bad place to be. That said, there are some other factors that will change how firms look at you:

1) Did you do any internships in undergrad? Working at a prestigious company would be a big plus if you are going straight through. I assume this is standard to do so, but the more interesting work you did the better. Even more so if it was working on medical devices (a common place for MEs to end up prosecuting).

2) Undergraduate GPA - prosecution jobs in particular seem to care about this, from what I've heard (I'm litigation). Given you're at Berkeley which is notorious for caring more about grades than LSAT, I assume it's pretty decent.

3) Do you code/can you read code? Particularly on the litigation side in a software or hardware heavy practice, this is a HUGE plus, even if your competency here is significantly lower than a CS or EE major. To the point where if you don't, spending some time during law school picking up some coding skills would be highly recommended. It's been a long time since college, so I have no idea what coding skills are expected of an ME today, but if you have them, they are a big draw.

On prosecution versus litigation - if it's what you think you want to do, do everything you can to get a 1L prosecution summer associate job. Look at smaller shops as well if needed. But *do* prosecution before you decide for your 2L summer. Some people think it sounds interesting, but it's a really particular job that needs really particular skills (that don't always line up with being good at engineering). A lot of the people applying will have had agent experience and know what's expected of them. To me, it always sounded deathly boring, but I also didn't have ideal credentials for it (bio side, no PhD), so it wasn't much of a decision.

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Re: Likelihood of IP Biglaw? (Top Engineering undergrad and T13)

Post by Anonymous User » Sat May 08, 2021 3:04 am

Berkeley Law 3L here.

Generally speaking, I think you're in a great position to be competitive for the various 1L offerings in the IP lit/prosecution space. MoFo has their two-summer program, Fish hires 1Ls from here, and there are plenty of others. 2L jobs are way less competitive, and I'm sure there are Vault-ranked firms that would be happy to give you a callback based on your background alone.

Trust me, I understand the desire to coast with straight P's but honestly I think you'll want at least one H to show employers that you're capable of doing so. Since our grading system is so weird, employers have to rely on their own subjective measures of competency which leads to weird cutoffs/arbitrary wiggle-room. Why take you over the many other STEM students vying for IP (of which Berkeley has no shortage) when plenty of them excel in school? Law school grades are far more relevant in showing competency in areas like writing where engineering students tend to not have much practice. Some of my smartest engineering friends can't write for shit, and I couldn't imagine that being acceptable for a litigator/pros.

In short, may be hard to get boutiques/IP powerhouses with all P's. Throw in 2-3 H's 1L and you'll likely have many offers as long as you interview decently.

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Re: Likelihood of IP Biglaw? (Top Engineering undergrad and T13)

Post by Anonymous User » Sat May 08, 2021 4:05 pm

You might also consider blanketing big law 1L SA apps for patent lit, and then using that experience to land a 2L SA pros gig at Fish/Knobbe/Finnegan etc. Every big law firm seems to have a patent lit group these days and IME litigation is a lot less sensitive to the particulars of your STEM background as long as you have one. As others have said BSME is not in high demand for prosecution, but experience with the area of law might help demonstrate commitment and competency and give you a leg up at OCI/Loyola. (Plus, liking patent law but not liking litigation during 1L summer is a decent story for why you want to go the prosecution route).

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Re: Likelihood of IP Biglaw? (Top Engineering undergrad and T13)

Post by supermario26 » Sat May 08, 2021 4:28 pm

jackedimuschadimus wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:41 pm
Going to Berkeley Law next year at a half discount. Have a BS in mechanical engineering from MIT/Stanford/Berkeley engineering. Is 1L SA and 2L SA basically guaranteed? Could I just coast with all P's and walk out with 10 big firm offers?
Is everyone going to just ignore the stupid question of can I just coast and walk out with 10 big firm offers? I’m not sure what hiring will be like in two years, but this year, lots of really competitive candidates struck out/almost struck out. Plus, Mech. E. Is way less desirable in IP than EE, CS, and arguably Chem. E. Don’t walk into interviews with that attitude - it won’t work out well for you.

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Re: Likelihood of IP Biglaw? (Top Engineering undergrad and T13)

Post by jotarokujo » Sat May 08, 2021 5:00 pm

supermario26 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 4:28 pm
jackedimuschadimus wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:41 pm
Going to Berkeley Law next year at a half discount. Have a BS in mechanical engineering from MIT/Stanford/Berkeley engineering. Is 1L SA and 2L SA basically guaranteed? Could I just coast with all P's and walk out with 10 big firm offers?
Is everyone going to just ignore the stupid question of can I just coast and walk out with 10 big firm offers? I’m not sure what hiring will be like in two years, but this year, lots of really competitive candidates struck out/almost struck out. Plus, Mech. E. Is way less desirable in IP than EE, CS, and arguably Chem. E. Don’t walk into interviews with that attitude - it won’t work out well for you.
i felt i indirectly answered by saying ip lit is more competitive than general lit but to directly answer, no it's not safe to coast 1L and try to get a top ip lit gig. even general lit at a top firm it probably would be unsafe with straight Ps, so IP lit definitely would not fly with straight P's.

for patent prosecution, you probably can get a good position with straight P's, especially if you pass the patent bar during 1L.

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Re: Likelihood of IP Biglaw? (Top Engineering undergrad and T13)

Post by Anonymous User » Sun May 09, 2021 2:21 am

Also, almost everyone in my class at B that got biglaw with straight-P's basically had a summer job lined up through networking before spring grades even came out (as in they became close to partner(s) that essentially told them to circle back once hiring season started).

No matter what background you have, straight-P's will always need to hustle or find ways to sidestep their transcript.

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Re: Likelihood of IP Biglaw? (Top Engineering undergrad and T13)

Post by Spartan_Alum_12 » Sun May 09, 2021 1:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 5:18 pm
Apart from the kind of odd "can I just coast?" attitude, starting with an ME from one of those schools (weird list honestly - not sure I'd equate those three but whatever) is not a bad place to be. That said, there are some other factors that will change how firms look at you:

1) Did you do any internships in undergrad? Working at a prestigious company would be a big plus if you are going straight through. I assume this is standard to do so, but the more interesting work you did the better. Even more so if it was working on medical devices (a common place for MEs to end up prosecuting).

2) Undergraduate GPA - prosecution jobs in particular seem to care about this, from what I've heard (I'm litigation). Given you're at Berkeley which is notorious for caring more about grades than LSAT, I assume it's pretty decent.

3) Do you code/can you read code? Particularly on the litigation side in a software or hardware heavy practice, this is a HUGE plus, even if your competency here is significantly lower than a CS or EE major. To the point where if you don't, spending some time during law school picking up some coding skills would be highly recommended. It's been a long time since college, so I have no idea what coding skills are expected of an ME today, but if you have them, they are a big draw.

On prosecution versus litigation - if it's what you think you want to do, do everything you can to get a 1L prosecution summer associate job. Look at smaller shops as well if needed. But *do* prosecution before you decide for your 2L summer. Some people think it sounds interesting, but it's a really particular job that needs really particular skills (that don't always line up with being good at engineering). A lot of the people applying will have had agent experience and know what's expected of them. To me, it always sounded deathly boring, but I also didn't have ideal credentials for it (bio side, no PhD), so it wasn't much of a decision.
It's absolutely true that firms care about undergrad GPA for prosecution. Even as a lateral candidate with 3-4 years of experience, most places looked at undergrad transcripts and asked about specific classes and such.

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