CCN Bad 2L Fall grades; very worried, thinking about dropping out. Forum

[TheReasonablePerson]

Got two C+'s, one B-, one B+. Definitely near the bottom; not in academic probation, but unacceptably close to it.

I'm a transfer student, so my 1L grades are irrelevant for GPA/rank purposes. But for information purposes, I was top 10 individuals (around top 5%) at my past school.

OCI already happened, don't have an SA offer yet. I have one callback left and am waiting to hear from another firm. I'm absolutely devastated and very afraid. I made the mistake of working this fall, clearly didn't work out.

[Anonymous User]

It may depend at what CCN you are at. Regardless, talk to OCS right away. At my CCN, 3 out of 4 of your grades are discretionary, meaning that the professor had to affirmatively decide to give you grades that low, and you would probably be at the bottom, not merely near it. With the additional factor of your being a transfer, things are not looking good. That is why you need to talk to OCS right away. Also set up a meeting with someone in the PI and/or government office. Finally, acknowledge the reality that a BL SA position may not happen.

[TheReasonablePerson]

It may depend at what CCN you are at. Regardless, talk to OCS right away. At my CCN, 3 out of 4 of your grades are discretionary, meaning that the professor had to affirmatively decide to give you grades that low, and you would probably be at the bottom, not merely near it. With the additional factor of your being a transfer, things are not looking good. That is why you need to talk to OCS right away. Also set up a meeting with someone in the PI and/or government office. Finally, acknowledge the reality that a BL SA position may not happen.

I am talking with OCS and my professors right away. Do you think dropping out is a good option?

The CCN is Chicago. I don't think my grades were discretionary. I didn't actually get letter grades, this is me translating it from the gradin scale they provide.

[Anonymous User]

It may depend at what CCN you are at. Regardless, talk to OCS right away. At my CCN, 3 out of 4 of your grades are discretionary, meaning that the professor had to affirmatively decide to give you grades that low, and you would probably be at the bottom, not merely near it. With the additional factor of your being a transfer, things are not looking good. That is why you need to talk to OCS right away. Also set up a meeting with someone in the PI and/or government office. Finally, acknowledge the reality that a BL SA position may not happen.

I am talking with OCS and my professors right away. Do you think dropping out is a good option?

The CCN is Chicago. I don't think my grades were discretionary. I didn't actually get letter grades, this is me translating it from the gradin scale they provide.

https://www.law.uchicago.edu/students/h ... rs/grading

I will be straightforward that I don't know exactly how UChicago's grading scale works in practice, but if 177 is median, then it sounds like you are below median, but don't have the unspeakably terrible grades the post makes it sound like. I think you need to talk with your career services office immediately though.

[TheReasonablePerson]

It may depend at what CCN you are at. Regardless, talk to OCS right away. At my CCN, 3 out of 4 of your grades are discretionary, meaning that the professor had to affirmatively decide to give you grades that low, and you would probably be at the bottom, not merely near it. With the additional factor of your being a transfer, things are not looking good. That is why you need to talk to OCS right away. Also set up a meeting with someone in the PI and/or government office. Finally, acknowledge the reality that a BL SA position may not happen.

I am talking with OCS and my professors right away. Do you think dropping out is a good option?

The CCN is Chicago. I don't think my grades were discretionary. I didn't actually get letter grades, this is me translating it from the gradin scale they provide.

https://www.law.uchicago.edu/students/h ... rs/grading

I will be straightforward that I don't know exactly how UChicago's grading scale works in practice, but if 177 is median, then it sounds like you are below median, but don't have the unspeakably terrible grades the post makes it sound like. I think you need to talk with your career services office immediately though.

The median is indeed 177 for all my courses.

I can give the exact numbers for each course. My average, with weighted, is about 174.09. Academic probation (for a whole year, including all quarters) is 173.5. So it has to be near, or at the bottom, at least.

I will be having a phone call with OCS in the next hour which should clarify.

[Anonymous User]

Do you think dropping out is a good option?

Certainly not until you talk to OCS and get the broader ranking and job opportunity context for your grades and as a transfer.

[TheReasonablePerson]

Do you think dropping out is a good option?

Certainly not until you talk to OCS and get the broader ranking and job opportunity context for your grades and as a transfer.

Thank you. I will post in about 40-50 minutes stating what OCS's opinion is.

[Anonymous User]

It may depend at what CCN you are at. Regardless, talk to OCS right away. At my CCN, 3 out of 4 of your grades are discretionary, meaning that the professor had to affirmatively decide to give you grades that low, and you would probably be at the bottom, not merely near it. With the additional factor of your being a transfer, things are not looking good. That is why you need to talk to OCS right away. Also set up a meeting with someone in the PI and/or government office. Finally, acknowledge the reality that a BL SA position may not happen.

I am talking with OCS and my professors right away. Do you think dropping out is a good option?

The CCN is Chicago. I don't think my grades were discretionary. I didn't actually get letter grades, this is me translating it from the gradin scale they provide.

Count your lucky stars that you aren't at CLS or NYU with those grades, lol. I'm a mid-level BigLaw Associate who didn't go to Chicago who has done some interviewing for my current firm. Chicago grading is weird and most people who didn't go to Chicago have no idea how to evaluate the grades, so there may be minimal impact especially if you interviewed with firms that don't have a lot of Chicago alum attorneys.

Your best resource is career services. I would not drop out at minimum until you've heard back from every firm you applied to and consulted closely with career services. Don't be afraid to pester them relentlessly if need be - your tuition dollars pay their salary.

[TheReasonablePerson]

It may depend at what CCN you are at. Regardless, talk to OCS right away. At my CCN, 3 out of 4 of your grades are discretionary, meaning that the professor had to affirmatively decide to give you grades that low, and you would probably be at the bottom, not merely near it. With the additional factor of your being a transfer, things are not looking good. That is why you need to talk to OCS right away. Also set up a meeting with someone in the PI and/or government office. Finally, acknowledge the reality that a BL SA position may not happen.

I am talking with OCS and my professors right away. Do you think dropping out is a good option?

The CCN is Chicago. I don't think my grades were discretionary. I didn't actually get letter grades, this is me translating it from the gradin scale they provide.

Count your lucky stars that you aren't at CLS or NYU with those grades, lol. I'm a mid-level BigLaw Associate who didn't go to Chicago who has done some interviewing for my current firm. Chicago grading is weird and most people who didn't go to Chicago have no idea how to evaluate the grades, so there may be minimal impact especially if you interviewed with firms that don't have a lot of Chicago alum attorneys.

Your best resource is career services. I would not drop out at minimum until you've heard back from every firm you applied to and consulted closely with career services. Don't be afraid to pester them relentlessly if need be - your tuition dollars pay their salary.

If I receive a summer SA offer is it likely they will rescind my offer if they get an updated transcript? Chicago has the quarter system so I will have 3 "semesters" of grades. How bad my grades look depend on how I do the next two semester + when in that period a firm asks for an updated transcript.

[Anonymous User]

You are meeting with OCS imminently, ask them and then report back. I guarantee they will have a fuller and more accurate sense than randos on TLS.

[jotarokujo]

Didn't go to chicago but this seems completely fine as long as you aren't solely targeting lit boutiques or public private interest firms. target some (at least half?) NYC for safety. but for general lit or transactional, you should be absolutely good

for the broader question of whether you should drop out: if you actually want to practice law (more than any other career option) or sincerely enjoy law school, then you probably shouldn't drop. there's a lot more that goes into it but that's the fundamental question. Did you enjoy your 1L summer/externship/clinic practice? determine as best you can if you want to practice law/like the law.

[TheReasonablePerson]

OCS said that big law is still possible. Outside of being below median, OCS had no idea of where I stood academically. I am now calling the registrar to clarify. They said big law is still possible, I just may not get V100.

Called the registrar too. Neither can tell me an exact rank - the school has a categorical prohibition against ranking. If neither of them can tell me, and I can't figure it out, will firms know anything outside me being below median?

[Anonymous User]

Didn't go to chicago but this seems completely fine as long as you aren't solely targeting lit boutiques or public private interest firms. target some (at least half?) NYC for safety. but for general lit or transactional, you should be absolutely good

for the broader question of whether you should drop out: if you actually want to practice law (more than any other career option) or sincerely enjoy law school, then you probably shouldn't drop. there's a lot more that goes into it but that's the fundamental question. Did you enjoy your 1L summer/externship/clinic practice? determine as best you can if you want to practice law/like the law.

I only plan on doing general transactional/being open to litigation. I understand some firms are now out of the picture.

In terms of dropping, I would like to be a lawyer, but without big law compensation - I don't think I want to be enough to be buried in debt the rest of my life.

[Anonymous User]

I only plan on doing general transactional/being open to litigation. I understand some firms are now out of the picture.

If I were you, I would target NYC and GO IN HARD on transactional during interviews (while noting openness to lit as appropriate). I talked to someone at Skadden who said that most students for whatever reason say lit (maybe because law school is lit-oriented) but that a lot of firms are actually looking for more transactional people than they get. If you have relevant background or specific reasons for wanting to do transactional work, you will have an advantage at transaction-heavy firms.

[Anonymous User]

I only plan on doing general transactional/being open to litigation. I understand some firms are now out of the picture.

If I were you, I would target NYC and GO IN HARD on transactional during interviews (while noting openness to lit as appropriate). I talked to someone at Skadden who said that most students for whatever reason say lit (maybe because law school is lit-oriented) but that a lot of firms are actually looking for more transactional people than they get. If you have relevant background or specific reasons for wanting to do transactional work, you will have an advantage at transaction-heavy firms.

Thanks. I am going to be applying heavily to NYC firms in the coming days (I only really applied to Chicago). I don't have a financial/accounting background but I believe that transactional is what I would prefer, based on the attorneys I spoke with.

Is there a way to emphasize this to get past the initial screen? Most people I talked to said they don't even read cover letters.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks. I am going to be applying heavily to NYC firms in the coming days (I only really applied to Chicago). I don't have a financial/accounting background but I believe that transactional is what I would prefer, based on the attorneys I spoke with.

Is there a way to emphasize this to get past the initial screen? Most people I talked to said they don't even read cover letters.

I am not sure, because I did not do cover letters (our OCI does not even accept them). I would email the OCS person you just met with. But if you are targeting transactional firms, make sure to include that as a reason in the cover letters in case they do read them. A lot of firm sites' application portals also ask you to list interests.

[TheReasonablePerson]

Thanks. I am going to be applying heavily to NYC firms in the coming days (I only really applied to Chicago). I don't have a financial/accounting background but I believe that transactional is what I would prefer, based on the attorneys I spoke with.

Is there a way to emphasize this to get past the initial screen? Most people I talked to said they don't even read cover letters.

I am not sure, because I did not do cover letters (our OCI does not even accept them). I would email the OCS person you just met with. But if you are targeting transactional firms, make sure to include that as a reason in the cover letters in case they do read them. A lot of firm sites' application portals also ask you to list interests.

I'll make sure to. Thanks again for the help.

[Sackboy]

Honestly, U of C is so small and the grading system is so weird that I bet if you applied to bunch of AmLaw 200 firms that you'd eventually get a few bites from firms that just don't get what your grades represent but you're one of like 3 U of C applicants they get a year.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks. I am going to be applying heavily to NYC firms in the coming days (I only really applied to Chicago). I don't have a financial/accounting background but I believe that transactional is what I would prefer, based on the attorneys I spoke with.

Is there a way to emphasize this to get past the initial screen? Most people I talked to said they don't even read cover letters.

I am not sure, because I did not do cover letters (our OCI does not even accept them). I would email the OCS person you just met with. But if you are targeting transactional firms, make sure to include that as a reason in the cover letters in case they do read them. A lot of firm sites' application portals also ask you to list interests.

I'll make sure to. Thanks again for the help.

In order to effectively target NYC firms, I would ask OCS for a list of law firms ranked largest to smallest by # of summer associates in their NYC Office. for the most recent year(s)they have on file. This distinction is important, since biglaw firms headquartered outside of NYC often nonetheless have large summer associate classes in their NYC offices. Ideally you would apply to every market paying or close to market paying firm that hires NYC summer associates directly out of law school, but start with the largest offices.

I think your sweet spot will be less selective firms with medium-ish sized NYC summer classes (i.e., Dechert, Cadwalader, Schulte, Cahill, Kramer Levin), but given that you were top 5% at your 1L law school, I wouldn't shy away from applying to v15/v10 NYC offices either. SullCromm, Paul Weiss, Latham NYC, etc., in recent years (pre-pandemic) have hired many summers from Fordham, Cardozo, Brooklyn, etc, so no reason to write those off just because of one semester of below median 2L elective grades at UChi.

[Sackboy]

I wouldn't shy away from applying to v15/v10 NYC offices either. SullCromm, Paul Weiss, Latham NYC, etc., in recent years (pre-pandemic) have hired many summers from Fordham, Cardozo, Brooklyn, etc, so no reason to write those off just because of one semester of below median 2L elective grades at UChi.

If it doesn't take OP much time, OP should definitely send resumes to these places, but there is a big difference between having below median 2L elective grades and OP's grades. For T6 elective coursework, OP must be near dead last in their class with those grades. This isn't like OP got a 3.2 in elective coursework when median is a 3.5. This is OP getting a 2.65 when the median for elective coursework is probably a 3.5 (again, translate this all into U of C's wacky grading). OP should be targeting firms with very low selectivity and midlaw shops.

[TheReasonablePerson]

I wouldn't shy away from applying to v15/v10 NYC offices either. SullCromm, Paul Weiss, Latham NYC, etc., in recent years (pre-pandemic) have hired many summers from Fordham, Cardozo, Brooklyn, etc, so no reason to write those off just because of one semester of below median 2L elective grades at UChi.

If it doesn't take OP much time, OP should definitely send resumes to these places, but there is a big difference between having below median 2L elective grades and OP's grades. For T6 elective coursework, OP must be near dead last in their class with those grades. This isn't like OP got a 3.2 in elective coursework when median is a 3.5. This is OP getting a 2.65 when the median for elective coursework is probably a 3.5 (again, translate this all into U of C's wacky grading). OP should be targeting firms with very low selectivity and midlaw shops.

The median is a 177 and I have a 174. I'm not sure what it really represents.The highest grade you can get is a 186. I don't have letter grades. It is a little frustrating that neither OCS nor the registrar could pinpoint precisely where I am in the curve.

OCS said to shoot for larger firms and that midlaw shops aren't necessary yet but I'm still applying.

https://www.calcunation.com/calculator/ ... -grade.php

That says I am below median and not dead last (although definitely on the bad end of below median), not including people with a D/F equiavlent.

I suppose it also doesn't matter if I can raise my grades next quarter (which finishes in March) since SA hiring is done by then.

[Anonymous User]

OCS said that big law is still possible. Outside of being below median, OCS had no idea of where I stood academically. I am now calling the registrar to clarify. They said big law is still possible, I just may not get V100.

Called the registrar too. Neither can tell me an exact rank - the school has a categorical prohibition against ranking. If neither of them can tell me, and I can't figure it out, will firms know anything outside me being below median?

173.5 is roughly bottom 10% because 180.5 is top 10% and grades are roughly normally distributed. You’re almost certainly not last this quarter, but you’re in an unusual circumstance as a transfer with only one quarter of grades. You should get something I imagine but it might take a while of mass mailing and it may not be V100.

Also, irrelevant to you but note that 185-6 are grades available only in theory, they’re discretionary and rare. The valedictorian is usually around 182.1 or something.

[TheReasonablePerson]

OCS said that big law is still possible. Outside of being below median, OCS had no idea of where I stood academically. I am now calling the registrar to clarify. They said big law is still possible, I just may not get V100.

Called the registrar too. Neither can tell me an exact rank - the school has a categorical prohibition against ranking. If neither of them can tell me, and I can't figure it out, will firms know anything outside me being below median?

173.5 is roughly bottom 10% because 180.5 is top 10% and grades are roughly normally distributed. You’re almost certainly not last this quarter, but you’re in an unusual circumstance as a transfer with only one quarter of grades. You should get something I imagine but it might take a while of mass mailing and it may not be V100.

Alright. That's about what I figured.

I'm fine with not having a V100. As long as it is a job that pays off my debt, that's all I need.

Edit: Thanks for the info on 186.

[Anonymous User]

I wouldn't shy away from applying to v15/v10 NYC offices either. SullCromm, Paul Weiss, Latham NYC, etc., in recent years (pre-pandemic) have hired many summers from Fordham, Cardozo, Brooklyn, etc, so no reason to write those off just because of one semester of below median 2L elective grades at UChi.

If it doesn't take OP much time, OP should definitely send resumes to these places, but there is a big difference between having below median 2L elective grades and OP's grades. For T6 elective coursework, OP must be near dead last in their class with those grades. This isn't like OP got a 3.2 in elective coursework when median is a 3.5. This is OP getting a 2.65 when the median for elective coursework is probably a 3.5 (again, translate this all into U of C's wacky grading). OP should be targeting firms with very low selectivity and midlaw shops.

Chicago doesn’t raise the curve after 1L so most people’s GPAs fall rather than rise due to more competition, especially if you’re taking doctrinal lectures and/or classes with litigators (who basically all apply to clerk and thus need high grades 2L).

The letter grade equivalents are also misleading because it curves to a supposed middle B (177), not a B+. That means a supposed ~3.8 student—181—is ranked in single digits and a supposed ~3.0 student—177—is median. Our supposed ~3.5 student (half A-, half B+) is 179-80, between cum laude and magna. Basically, it’s pointless trying to translate to normal letter grades.

OP’s grades are bad but 174 isn’t cataclysmic like a 2.65 would be at Columbia.

[TheReasonablePerson]

I wouldn't shy away from applying to v15/v10 NYC offices either. SullCromm, Paul Weiss, Latham NYC, etc., in recent years (pre-pandemic) have hired many summers from Fordham, Cardozo, Brooklyn, etc, so no reason to write those off just because of one semester of below median 2L elective grades at UChi.

If it doesn't take OP much time, OP should definitely send resumes to these places, but there is a big difference between having below median 2L elective grades and OP's grades. For T6 elective coursework, OP must be near dead last in their class with those grades. This isn't like OP got a 3.2 in elective coursework when median is a 3.5. This is OP getting a 2.65 when the median for elective coursework is probably a 3.5 (again, translate this all into U of C's wacky grading). OP should be targeting firms with very low selectivity and midlaw shops.

Chicago doesn’t raise the curve after 1L so most people’s GPAs fall rather than rise due to more competition, especially if you’re taking doctrinal lectures and/or classes with litigators (who basically all apply to clerk and thus need high grades 2L).

The letter grade equivalents are also misleading because it curves to a supposed middle B (177), not a B+. That means a supposed ~3.8 student—181—is ranked in single digits and a supposed ~3.0 student—177—is median. Basically, it’s pointless trying to translate to normal letter grades.

OP’s grades are bad—especially the 169s or whatever, which could be dead last in that class—but 174 isn’t cataclysmic.

I don't have any 169's (would put me on academic probation) I have a 179. My lowest grade is a 172.

According to my calculations, I am around, based on what the anon before you told me, I think - though cannot confirm - I am around bottom 1/3, albeit I cannot specify much more than that.