Big Law and Physical Health Forum

[Anonymous User]

I'm a first year (just a few months in) and already stressed and anxious 99% of the time for various reasons (constant "urgent" emails, late nights, conflicting/confusing instructions, being blamed for not being a mind-reader).

The anxiety has gotten so bad that I've experienced physical symptoms: shaking, insomnia, lack of appetite, tachycardia for hours at a time, waking up with the physical feeling of dread...

Mostly just looking to see what other physical symptoms people have experienced as a result of big law to feel less alone. How long did you put up with this before calling it quits? I feel like I'm just not cut out for this. I also don't want to seek medication for anxiety if it's solely a cause of a toxic work environment. I only experienced minor situational anxiety before this.

[nixy]

I think you should definitely talk to a professional. That may not result in medication, but there may be other things that will help you. I also don’t think those symptoms are sustainable as they are. Medication could be really helpful as a way to give you room to figure out the job more (so you know what is/isn’t worth stressing about) and get a better sense of whether it’s wrong for you, or it could also help you get into the right frame of mind to leave/get a new job.

Even situational anxiety is anxiety and it has the same effect on the body as your own organic kind. If you can’t remove yourself from the situation immediately you should get some kind of help.

(Which is not meant to suggest that you’re irrational or at fault in any way for having this kind of reaction; just saying, even when anxiety is a reasonable response to a particular circumstance, it’s still not good for you.)

[Anonymous User]

I spent a few years in biglaw, experienced much less anxiety than you described (thought I was doing "well" though working crazy hours and under sleep deprivation) and was diagnosed with (thankfully a treatable) cancer 2 years after I left biglaw to move in-house. I have no other risk factors and absolutely think the unhealthy/sleep deprived years in biglaw contributed to the situation. No job is worth sacrificing your health.

[Anonymous User]

I've worked at three firms and I didn't experience those issues until my third firm, when I got stuck under a terrible partner. I think you should try to make it through another year and then lateral somewhere with a better reputation. Not all biglaw jobs are terrible, but it really depends on the practice group and the particular partners you work for.

[Anonymous User]

I've worked at three firms and I didn't experience those issues until my third firm, when I got stuck under a terrible partner. I think you should try to make it through another year and then lateral somewhere with a better reputation. Not all biglaw jobs are terrible, but it really depends on the practice group and the particular partners you work for.

I cannot emphasize this enough. I switched from a frontline practice group (M&A, debt, bankruptcy) to a specialist group and it fundamentally changed my experience. My old group was constant stress, constant quick turnarounds, endless opportunities to fuck up on e-mail chains with lots of people, some terrible micromanager partners who give me PTSD thinking about working with them. Now I have a much more predictable schedule, work with all reasonable people, have significant autonomy, and am not on the frontlines with the client, and my stress is way lower.

[Anonymous User]

A lot of it has to do with the partner, as mentioned above.

I worked for great partners at my prior firm. I had to move cities and my practice group wasn’t in my new city.

At my current firm, I work with a nightmare of a partner. It has caused a ton of anxiety. Not as bad as yours, but pretty bad. The constant fear of seeing an email or missed call from this partner is almost unbearable. It’s been almost two years, and it hasn’t gotten much better. I’m just holding out for an in-house job at this point, which is why I stuck it out.

If I were you, I would try to switch groups ASAP. It’s not sustainable. As others mentioned, no job is worth it.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks everyone for your responses! I agree that it is not sustainable, and it's my New Year's resolution to go to therapy for the first time in my life.

I know nothing about changing practice groups, but going to do more research into that. There are some people in my group that I enjoy working with and are nice and willing to help - but for most projects I've gotten stuck working under the bad ones, and it seems pretty hard for me to control who I work under at this stage.

[Anonymous User]

I'll chime in and say it's about getting comfortable with not being perfect and being happy with how you want to handle your career. Once I truly thought through things and decided I would not care if I was not ALWAYS available or ALWAYS giving perfect answers/product because it is an unreasonable standard and expectation, my life got better. I decided if my best wasn't good enough and they don't want to allow me room to improve with reasonable expectations, then oh well. Now, we all still do the best we can, but learning to be comfortable with setting boundaries like not answering a call after 7pm or before 8am during weekdays or not answering calls or emails on weekends has been a lifesaver.

[jotarokujo]

way way way easier said than done, but this is the goal: don't care. you aren't going to get fired if you are reasonably responsive. you (likely) aren't going to get fired for not answering emails immediately at 3 AM or for not catering to very unreasonable demands. therefore, just don't care that you aren't doing all of this unreasonable stuff because it won't get you fired.

you probably were conditioned through law school to be on top of everything and gun as hard as possible. again, much easier said than done, but you gotta try to shed this mindset over time.

force yourself into the gym. force yourself to sleep. force yourself to spend time with people you care about. it's going to feel reckless/irresponsible at first, but you'll get used to it.

[hdr]

way way way easier said than done, but this is the goal: don't care. you aren't going to get fired if you are reasonably responsive. you (likely) aren't going to get fired for not answering emails immediately at 3 AM or for not catering to very unreasonable demands. therefore, just don't care that you aren't doing all of this unreasonable stuff because it won't get you fired.

Agreed. Juniors don't get fired except for low hours or misconduct. As long as people continue to give you work, it's OK to be less responsive than they'd like. And in the unlikely event people stop giving you work, you'll have several months to find a solution (i.e. find other people to work for or lateral) before being pushed out.

Many associates don't do weekend work except in rare cases and last several years. If you don't feel comfortable ignoring weekend emails, then start by limiting your replies to just a couple periods, like Saturday and Sunday from 9-10 pm. You probably won't encounter any issues.

[Whatislaw]

Agreed. Definitely easier said than done. Start small and work your way up and you'll see that what we're saying is true and can be implemented. I agree with forcing yourself to the gym, setting aside relaxation time, family dinner time, etc. If you don't set boundaries, then you'll get chewed up and burn out. Now, once you're 3rd/4th year, you'll be more comfortable saying no, but I definitely started as a 2nd year. Do good work, be responsive (during the workday), and have a good attitude. But the all hours and weekends and other unreasonable expectations? Don't sweat it. We all went through that 1st year panic so it's completely normal

[papermateflair]

OP here. Thanks everyone for your responses! I agree that it is not sustainable, and it's my New Year's resolution to go to therapy for the first time in my life.

I know nothing about changing practice groups, but going to do more research into that. There are some people in my group that I enjoy working with and are nice and willing to help - but for most projects I've gotten stuck working under the bad ones, and it seems pretty hard for me to control who I work under at this stage.

OP, is there someone in your group that you can talk to? I don't think you need to lay out all of your symptoms or anything, but if there's someone you can trust and who you can talk to about feeling overwhelmed and how to balance things, then you could see what they suggest. My group would take it pretty seriously if our first year associate was this anxious and would try and help them find balance, but I get that you may not know who you can trust yet or know if the group will actually have your best interests at heart, so I get not wanting to tell folks how you are feeling. If there are people in your group who you like working with, tell them you love working with them and ask them for work - if they can keep you busy, you can say no to the folks who are making your life miserable (and by "say no" I mean say "I have x y and z due by the end of the day and I won't be able to get to your project until [two days from now], will that be ok? if not, someone else may need to help" or something like that).

[Anonymous User]

OP, is there someone in your group that you can talk to?

I'm still trying to figure it out. It's hard in the remote work environment, but I feel like I'm gradually making progress on getting to know people in my group better to see who is best to talk to. Thanks for your response!

[Stevenmilbe]

I've worked at three firms and I didn't experience those issues until my third firm, when I got stuck under a terrible partner. I think you should try to make it through another year and then lateral somewhere with a better reputation. Not all biglaw jobs are terrible, but it really depends on the practice group and the particular partners you work for.

This.

[Anonymous User]

Experiencing similar issues as a 1st year (except with nice people, which is how I really know I’m not cut out for this). I’ve been applying aggressively and have had a couple of interviews so far. I gave myself a firm exit date in February—worst case scenario I go back to what I was doing before law school and take some time to think about what I really want to do. All I know so far is I want a job that I can stop thinking about and entirely disengage from outside of defined working hours. If that means not being a lawyer, so be it.

TLS will give you lots of great advice for trying to be less miserable and stick it out as long as possible, but, depending on your level of risk aversion/financial situation, you could just, you know, quit and be happy. There doesn’t seem to be anything but more stress to come, due to ever-increasing responsibility.

[Anonymous User]

Experiencing similar issues as a 1st year (except with nice people, which is how I really know I’m not cut out for this). I’ve been applying aggressively and have had a couple of interviews so far. I gave myself a firm exit date in February—worst case scenario I go back to what I was doing before law school and take some time to think about what I really want to do. All I know so far is I want a job that I can stop thinking about and entirely disengage from outside of defined working hours. If that means not being a lawyer, so be it.

TLS will give you lots of great advice for trying to be less miserable and stick it out as long as possible, but, depending on your level of risk aversion/financial situation, you could just, you know, quit and be happy. There doesn’t seem to be anything but more stress to come, due to ever-increasing responsibility.

OP here, and thank you for making me feel less alone. I see a lot of people here saying "stick it out" for at least X amount of years, but honestly not sure I want to spent that much time with poor mental and physical health. I want to start a family soon within the next few years as well and have already decided that is just not compatible with big law (I know others make it work, but it's just not going to work for me).

[Anonymous User]

Experiencing similar issues as a 1st year (except with nice people, which is how I really know I’m not cut out for this). I’ve been applying aggressively and have had a couple of interviews so far. I gave myself a firm exit date in February—worst case scenario I go back to what I was doing before law school and take some time to think about what I really want to do. All I know so far is I want a job that I can stop thinking about and entirely disengage from outside of defined working hours. If that means not being a lawyer, so be it.

TLS will give you lots of great advice for trying to be less miserable and stick it out as long as possible, but, depending on your level of risk aversion/financial situation, you could just, you know, quit and be happy. There doesn’t seem to be anything but more stress to come, due to ever-increasing responsibility.

OP here, and thank you for making me feel less alone. I see a lot of people here saying "stick it out" for at least X amount of years, but honestly not sure I want to spent that much time with poor mental and physical health. I want to start a family soon within the next few years as well and have already decided that is just not compatible with big law (I know others make it work, but it's just not going to work for me).

Yep, exact same here re: starting a family soon. Also, I don't mean to deride the advice to talk to a professional (which you absolutely should do to the extent you have to keep working in your current environment), but I wouldn't stay even a few years in a job that I needed therapy and/or medication to do if I was a generally happy and well-functioning person prior to such job. At least not if I had literally any other choice.

[Anonymous User]

Experiencing similar issues as a 1st year (except with nice people, which is how I really know I’m not cut out for this). I’ve been applying aggressively and have had a couple of interviews so far. I gave myself a firm exit date in February—worst case scenario I go back to what I was doing before law school and take some time to think about what I really want to do. All I know so far is I want a job that I can stop thinking about and entirely disengage from outside of defined working hours. If that means not being a lawyer, so be it.

TLS will give you lots of great advice for trying to be less miserable and stick it out as long as possible, but, depending on your level of risk aversion/financial situation, you could just, you know, quit and be happy. There doesn’t seem to be anything but more stress to come, due to ever-increasing responsibility.

OP here, and thank you for making me feel less alone. I see a lot of people here saying "stick it out" for at least X amount of years, but honestly not sure I want to spent that much time with poor mental and physical health. I want to start a family soon within the next few years as well and have already decided that is just not compatible with big law (I know others make it work, but it's just not going to work for me).

Yep, exact same here re: starting a family soon. Also, I don't mean to deride the advice to talk to a professional (which you absolutely should do to the extent you have to keep working in your current environment), but I wouldn't stay even a few years in a job that I needed therapy and/or medication to do if I was a generally happy and well-functioning person prior to such job. At least not if I had literally any other choice.

Agreed. I do not want to take medication if the main cause of my anxiety is a toxic environment, and I can remove myself from that environment. I do not think I have generalized anxiety disorder. I've been in stressful jobs before and have managed fine. This is just my breaking point. Financially, yes, it will be more difficult, but I have options like IBR.

[nixy]

FWIW, one of the reasons I say to consult a professional is that anxiety, even if situational, can rewire your brain to make it more likely that you’ll experience anxiety in the future. Ideally if you leave the toxic environment you’ll go back to your old self with no issues, but it isn’t always that simple.

[Anonymous User]

FWIW, one of the reasons I say to consult a professional is that anxiety, even if situational, can rewire your brain to make it more likely that you’ll experience anxiety in the future. Ideally if you leave the toxic environment you’ll go back to your old self with no issues, but it isn’t always that simple.

That is fair. I have no doubts the effect will linger for some time even after I move on to something better.

[sparty99]

I've worked at three firms and I didn't experience those issues until my third firm, when I got stuck under a terrible partner. I think you should try to make it through another year and then lateral somewhere with a better reputation. Not all biglaw jobs are terrible, but it really depends on the practice group and the particular partners you work for.

Getting stuck with a bad Partner is the worst! I still have nightmares about having to waste 2 years with a partner from hell. I would also recommend leaving your toxic environment. It sounds horrible and working for a jack ass is not worth it unless you need the money which in that case, I would just focus on that.

[nealric]

This may sound banal, but make time for exercise- the more strenuous the better. Even if it's only 10 or 15 minutes, it can make a huge difference in anxiety levels.

Most people who are anxious have a deep-seated urge to do physically something about the problem they are anxious about. The issue is that most modern work anxiety is not caused by a problem that requires physically doing anything other than typing some words. Exercise can trick your brain into thinking you are working hard to resolve the source of your anxiety.

[Anonymous User]

I got out of a bad situation working for a horrible partner a few years ago now. Despite the passage of time, I swear I still suffer from insomnia and sleep deprivation, although the effects aren't as bad as they used to be. When it got to the point where I was starting to lose respect for myself, responding to emails at 11PM, pulling all nighters to finish worthless assignments, you know, generally realizing that I had no control over my own life, questioning "if this is going to be my life, how is it worth living," and seeing that the lives' of the partners at my firm (aside from a select few bosses) didn't seem all that much better, I gave notice and walked out. Don't regret it for a moment. It was unbelievably freeing, and like i said, although the physical effects haven't completely subsided, I can feel myself getting better as time goes by.

[Anonymous User]

I got out of a bad situation working for a horrible partner a few years ago now. Despite the passage of time, I swear I still suffer from insomnia and sleep deprivation, although the effects aren't as bad as they used to be. When it got to the point where I was starting to lose respect for myself, responding to emails at 11PM, pulling all nighters to finish worthless assignments, you know, generally realizing that I had no control over my own life, questioning "if this is going to be my life, how is it worth living," and seeing that the lives' of the partners at my firm (aside from a select few bosses) didn't seem all that much better, I gave notice and walked out. Don't regret it for a moment. It was unbelievably freeing, and like i said, although the physical effects haven't completely subsided, I can feel myself getting better as time goes by.

This is what I'm afraid of. Did you have another job lined up or did you just quit with no back up?