Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

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Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:32 pm

Happy to answer any questions on big law recruiting. Thought I'd put this up given that recruiting season is almost fully underway.

My background:
  • I graduated from Columbia Law, if anyone has specific questions on that school's process.
  • I worked at two different big law firms in NYC (one V5, one V15). I was actively involved with hiring at both firms (one through a close relationship with the recruiting team, one through an associates' committee).
  • While I ended up in NYC post-graduation, I interviewed widely in California as well.
  • To be candid, I literally just left the firm life to go in house after 4-5 years, but was involved with hiring until the time I left the firm (so hopefully I can still speak some to this season).
Feel free to ask and I'll try my best to answer.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:09 pm

If you know the specific firm is looking to bring in new associates, what is the best way to go about getting an interview? Direct apply though recruiting? Grab coffee with alumni and express interest?

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:09 pm

Previous anon: was referring to lateral hiring

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:31 pm

Best questions to ask the partners at the end of the interviews?

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:32 pm

How much say/influence do associates have compared to partners when hiring summer associates? I recently went through OCI and did several callbacks that usually involved two partners + two associates. Curious to know how much influence the associates had--I got the sense that the decision was really up to the partners but if someone made a terrible influence on the associates it could act as a dealbreaker.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:43 pm

I'm a clerk trying to get a job for fall 2021. All I see are generic recruiting email addresses and online platforms.

What are your thoughts about emailing one's materials directly to partners? I know it's done, and I suppose the worst thing to happen is that the partner ignores the mail or just forwards it to HR.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:48 pm

What did you expect candidates to know about your firm in screeners and callbacks?

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:57 pm

Do you have any insight into how much a difference Law Review (at Columbia or generally) makes if one's grades are not Kent/high Stone?

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:00 pm

Background: I am a 3L at a non-t14 law school who is on Law Review and Moot Court.

If I do not put my GPA on my resume how would that be viewed?

Further, if my GPA is around a 3.2 would you recommend I include it?

Additionally, do you have any advice for 3L applicants?

Thank you in advance for your advice and assistance.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:09 pm
If you know the specific firm is looking to bring in new associates, what is the best way to go about getting an interview? Direct apply though recruiting? Grab coffee with alumni and express interest?
The best way is through a contact at the firm (like a friend or some alumni).

It makes it a little more likely that your resume will get seen by whoever's looking to bring people in, and some firms make the referrer a point of contact for you throughout the process. Doesn't hurt that the contact often gets a referral bonus, so don't worry too much about pestering someone if you're a generally qualified applicant.

I had people reach out to me occasionally to ask about the firm, the work I was doing, and (for the second firm) why I chose to lateral there. If you do reach out to an alumnus/a that you haven't met before, just be tactful about it. They'll know what's going on but won't begrudge you anything, and if you get along, you're in as good a spot as any other applicant. If you don't hear back from them after pinging them, don't sweat it too much, they might just be in a particular busy period (and it's not like you're blacklisted from applying to the firm).

Only other brief thought on this - if you're not sure that a firm's looking to bring in new associates, feel free to apply anyway. There are caveats to that last sentence, but it generally holds true to the extent the firm's large, based in NYC, or is named Kirkland. A lot of firms may not be actively searching for people but largely remain open to qualified candidates that happen to apply.
Best questions to ask the partners at the end of the interviews?
The best ones are definitely follow-up questions on things you talked about earlier in the interview.

Ex. "You mentioned the huge role your mentor played in your career earlier in the interview. I'd love to hear more about that. Was that through the formal mentorship program at ____?" You don't need to wait until the end of the interview to ask these questions - right after they talk about something you're interested in is fine, and it'll take up more time until the end of the interview anyway. Essentially, if the interviewer says anything you'd actually like to hear more of, keep that conversation going.

Other easy throwaways at the end of an interview:
  • How'd you first get involved in your practice area? [To the extent this actually interests you, this is a good time sink and can help you learn more about the firm.]
  • Similar to the above, any question about their personal experience with the firm/some part of it you're interested in is a generally fine/easy question.
  • If your interviewer's a lateral associate, it's easy to ask about what brought them to the firm ("Can you tell me a little about what brought you to ____?"). Just don't get into bad-mouthing whatever firm they came from, but they probably have good, positive reasons for making the jump and it's helpful to hear.
Just don't ask a junior/midlevel associate where they see the firm going in the next 5 years or anything like that. It's a little weird and they probably don't know anyway (nor may the partners, with COVID). Probably not a good idea to ask about firm strategy beyond which groups are really active/growing right now.
How much say/influence do associates have compared to partners when hiring summer associates? I recently went through OCI and did several callbacks that usually involved two partners + two associates. Curious to know how much influence the associates had--I got the sense that the decision was really up to the partners but if someone made a terrible influence on the associates it could act as a dealbreaker.
The partners likely have more say, but I'd say associates' input generally has more value than just being a dealbreaker.

At both firms I was at, attorneys would submit their input on the candidate after the interview, and the hiring partner would review the full package before deciding whether or not to make an offer to the candidate. If an associate identifies any red flag or feels very strongly one way or the other, the hiring partner's probably not going to ignore that entirely.

Think of it this way: It's pretty rare for a partner to feel, "We absolutely need this person at the firm, and I'll stake my career on it." Rather, it's more often a case of, "I had a good feeling about [person], and they seem like someone I'd like to work with." If an associate identifies a red flag (which they can do as well as almost any partner), the partner's probably not going to feel strongly enough to override anything (assuming they have that power). Additionally, if there's a sizeable amount of candidates that both partners felt "decent" about, associate input in a person's favor may well push a few people over the line for receiving an offer.

- OP

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:30 pm

Thanks for doing this. Was wondering if you could speak to NYC and perhaps Houston/Dallas.
Was just curious how strict y'all were on GPA cut-offs or class rank for folks from T1 schools that have been practicing in midlaw lit in a secondary market for a couple years. Not planning on making a jump yet or anything, quite happy where I am, but you never know! Thanks again.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:46 pm

When hiring juniors or mid-levels, to what extent does the Vault ranking matter? For example, how would an associate from STB be looked at compared to an associate from firms like WSGR or Goodwin, which don't have the Vault ranking or NYC pull, but are known for big deal work in certain practice areas?

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:46 pm
When hiring juniors or mid-levels, to what extent does the Vault ranking matter? For example, how would an associate from STB be looked at compared to an associate from firms like WSGR or Goodwin, which don't have the Vault ranking or NYC pull, but are known for big deal work in certain practice areas?
Or for that matter, associates lateraling from outside NYC. (same OP as quoted)

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:43 pm
I'm a clerk trying to get a job for fall 2021. All I see are generic recruiting email addresses and online platforms.

What are your thoughts about emailing one's materials directly to partners? I know it's done, and I suppose the worst thing to happen is that the partner ignores the mail or just forwards it to HR.
It won't hurt you, and I agree that the worse thing that can happen is the partner just ignores the email, but I think your success rate might be higher emailing associates (particularly friends at the firm or alumni of your law school).

Partners' inboxes fill up really quickly (due to working on tons of random deals/cases/BD/whatever at once) so they may not spend much time looking at yours absent some connection. Odds are they leave it until the end of the day then forget because some other fire drill came up.
What did you expect candidates to know about your firm in screeners and callbacks?
Not a lot, but enough to not say anything wrong. For example, don't talk about your interest in financial regulation if my firm doesn't have that practice group.

I think firm research can help by giving you a rough idea of what the firm seems to pride itself on/what's unique about it. For example, if the website/your connections/etc. suggest the firm's fiercely proud of its mentoring system, its lockstep compensation or whatever else, that's probably an easy conversation waiting to happen ("Can you tell me a little more about Kirkland's free market system, and how that's played out for you so far at the firm?"). You don't have to ask it, but it's easy conversation that will teach you more about the firm to boot.

Think of research as something that could make the interview easier on you rather than something you have to impress someone with. Oddly enough, the stranger thing I saw in interviews was people who went too overboard on research. Ex. "I saw you worked on the Pfizer/whatever deal in Law360 recently. What do you think about the current consolidation in the pharmaceutical industry?" (<-- an actual question from an interviewee)
Background: I am a 3L at a non-t14 law school who is on Law Review and Moot Court.

If I do not put my GPA on my resume how would that be viewed?

Further, if my GPA is around a 3.2 would you recommend I include it?

Additionally, do you have any advice for 3L applicants?

Thank you in advance for your advice and assistance.
I don't think you have to include it. That said, I assume they'll still see your transcript, so it won't hide much.

Re: 3L hiring: just know that it's more out of your control than it was in 2L. It's hard because they may only be hiring for select practice groups (i.e., they have enough people from their summer program coming back for most roles, but they really need someone for bankruptcy or capital markets or something like that). If your interests don't jive with the firm's needs, it's not your fault, but you might be out of luck.

Apply broadly and don't give up. I've seen 3L OCI work out well for a few friends but they really had to hustle for a little while. The hustle doesn't end once your school's official OCI program ends; keep emailing people, keep looking out for jobs until it works out. One friend got her job in like March of 3L, though it's at a great firm she loves. The hustle is far more important than your GPA (you have nothing to lose by just applying). Other than that, look out for firms that are actively trying to grow in certain areas (e.g., a firm traditionally strong in lit, but looking to build out its corporate practice or something like that).

Lastly, if you get an interview somewhere, don't worry about your grades. If your foot's already in the door, they specifically chose to give you a chance in spite of your GPA, so you don't need to carry that chip on your shoulder anymore.
Thanks for doing this. Was wondering if you could speak to NYC and perhaps Houston/Dallas.
Was just curious how strict y'all were on GPA cut-offs or class rank for folks from T1 schools that have been practicing in midlaw lit in a secondary market for a couple years. Not planning on making a jump yet or anything, quite happy where I am, but you never know! Thanks again.
For laterals, we weren't too focused on GPA/class rank, assuming the work experience was on point.

I don't think I ever specifically interviewed someone coming from midlaw, so I can't say for certain, but if you've had some good drafting experience, taken a couple depos or whatever else, that's probably pretty impressive. The burden would be to convince whomever's deciding whether to interview applicants that you learned the requisite skills at your last job and had potential. Sometimes big firms can be pretentious, but if you really highlight your quality work experience in your resume and/or cover letter, I think that would go further than grades. Worth a shot, anyway.

For what it's worth, the lateral interviews I did were mostly focused on making sure the person wasn't a dud, i.e., that they weren't just fleeing their old firm because they weren't performing there.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:09 pm

When hiring juniors or mid-levels, to what extent does the Vault ranking matter? For example, how would an associate from STB be looked at compared to an associate from firms like WSGR or Goodwin, which don't have the Vault ranking or NYC pull, but are known for big deal work in certain practice areas?
It's not a big deal.

I left an STB/CSM/DPW/S&C-type firm for a different firm, and there were people at my new firm from each of those places, as well as Goodwin, Kramer Levin and whatever other "lower-ranked" shops.

What matters most at the lateral hiring stage is convincing people you weren't a dud at your last firm, as noted in my last post. If there's a general need for your work experience and you seem friendly/diligent, you're probably in as good a position as anybody. If you did great work in a certain practice area at WSGR/Goodwin, and the firm you want an offer from has a need for someone in that practice area, I guarantee the people hiring for that role will think super highly of you (there's no way the partners hiring for certain tech/life sciences work aren't aware of Goodwin in that space, etc.).

The firm name only really matters to the extent people see it as a proxy for skill/experience. If you did great work in the practice group the new firm needs, you have that skill/experience, and the people hiring for select groups will know which firms do good work in that space (I promise they're not checking the Vault rankings).

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:42 pm

If I am looking to lateral, at what level of seniority do I become too senior, or less competitive, in the lateral market? I know that being a 7th year is pretty senior so you're not as competitive in the lateral market; being a 2nd year you don't have that concern because you are very junior. What level, roughly, is the break point?

Thanks.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:42 pm
If I am looking to lateral, at what level of seniority do I become too senior, or less competitive, in the lateral market? I know that being a 7th year is pretty senior so you're not as competitive in the lateral market; being a 2nd year you don't have that concern because you are very junior. What level, roughly, is the break point?

Thanks.
I feel like 4th-5th year is the sweet spot, with options first really starting to open up around year 3.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:57 pm
Do you have any insight into how much a difference Law Review (at Columbia or generally) makes if one's grades are not Kent/high Stone?
Wanted to bump this because I'm wondering something similar. At a T20, above median but just shy of top 1/3 but wrote on to Law Review, wondering if that really helps as much as people say it does?

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:22 pm

If I am a junior (second-year) and I hate my group due to screamer partners, is there any way to lateral into a substantially similar group at a substantially similar firm in the same market without explaining the honest reason why? What is the appropriate spin there?

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:19 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:57 pm
Do you have any insight into how much a difference Law Review (at Columbia or generally) makes if one's grades are not Kent/high Stone?
Wanted to bump this because I'm wondering something similar. At a T20, above median but just shy of top 1/3 but wrote on to Law Review, wondering if that really helps as much as people say it does?
Oops missed this one somehow.

Stone at Columbia, especially with Law Review, will get you past the grade hurdle for almost all NYC law firms. The high Stone/low Stone distinction matters a lot less than you'd think, unless you're aiming only for certain lit shops and similar (and maybe some DC firms). Cravath, Davis Polk and the like don't care if you're low Stone or high Stone. Wachtell sorta cares but not really, and all's forgiven if you have work experience in finance. Munger and the top DC shops may care.

So if all you're looking to do is go to a top NYC firm, Law Review doesn't really add much extra. There are other reasons to potentially do Law Review if you're already Stone, like clerking (though even then, it's a judge by judge thing), but once you've hit the Stone cut-off people generally aren't going to look too hard at the rest of your grades. Caveat - Law Review never hurts your application.

Hope that answers your question, though just let me know if you have specific goals in mind firm-wise.

For what it's worth, I did Law Review in law school. Do I think I would have ended up at a different firm without it? No. Was it a lot of time? Yes. No real regrets, though, since at the time I was just trying to maximize my chances of getting in somewhere.

To the second guy, Law Review might help a little more in your case, since it gives someone who might not be as familiar with your law school some assurance that they're getting a great candidate. Columbia has a pretty huge pipeline to NYC firms compared to most schools, so in your case, I'd feel pretty good about having it. Congrats on writing on.
If I am a junior (second-year) and I hate my group due to screamer partners, is there any way to lateral into a substantially similar group at a substantially similar firm in the same market without explaining the honest reason why? What is the appropriate spin there?
I wouldn't bad-mouth your current firm, at all costs. Aside from the general negativity, the risk is that it makes it seem like you couldn't hack it there and are looking for a second chance (which isn't true, but you don't want to make it seem like they're getting leftovers/backwash from somewhere else).

Just focus on what's different at the new firm and how that excites you. Maybe the client base is slightly different ("I did a lot of debt/equity offerings for a variety of large public companies at my last firm, but I'd love to do more work in the biotech space."). Maybe culture/mentorship's different.

If possible, I think the right spin is something along the lines of, "I generally enjoyed the work at my old firm, but after practicing for a couple years I've realized I want to steer my career more in X direction, and I can do that better at your firm." Hopefully that's possible and the firms aren't too similar!

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:33 pm

Thank you for doing this. Since OCI is now happening 2L, do you have any sense of how heavily firms are weighing 1L grades vs. 2L grades? I've heard speculation that firms are putting greater weight on 1L grades, but not sure if this is true or by how much.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:33 pm
Thank you for doing this. Since OCI is now happening 2L, do you have any sense of how heavily firms are weighing 1L grades vs. 2L grades? I've heard speculation that firms are putting greater weight on 1L grades, but not sure if this is true or by how much.
I'm speculating just as much as you are in answering this question, so take all of the below with a grain of salt.

My first thought's that most places probably aren't running your transcript through a calculator and assigning different weights... it's likely more of a gut reaction/judgment by whoever's glancing at it. What that means is that if there's a big increase to your 2L grades, they'll probably notice, and same with a big drop

It makes sense to me that 1L grades should matter more (since they're more standard throughout your law school, you don't get more unusual curves with seminars, etc.). In spite of that, I can't see them not noticing whatever you present to them on a transcript.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by consolidation058 » Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:12 am

What is the single most important piece of advice you would offer to associates heading into OCI and the job fair?

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:45 am

consolidation058 wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:12 am
What is the single most important piece of advice you would offer to associates heading into OCI and the job fair?
The worst mistake you can make is bidding poorly. You can have shit grades but if you bid well (and by that, I mean secure as many interviews as you can), you'll be fine.

For the average T14 candidate, "bidding well" means securing as many interviews as you can. Don't pretend you're above any law firm and don't stop hustling until you have offers in hand. Relatedly:
  • The time for you to narrow your options down and pick a firm is AFTER you have an offer. Don't rule things out before the interviews.
  • When I went to Columbia, we got 30 bids each. Bidding "decently" would get you 15 screeners, but if you were thoughtful about the process, you could easily get 20+.
  • I know interviews are exhausting, but don't let that stop you from doing as many as you can until you get an offer. Drink your coffee and make sure you show up mentally for each one. At worst, it's practice for the next (and I promise you will refine your technique the more you do). You won't regret it once it's done.
  • I promise the stress load plummets the moment you have an offer in hand.
  • Not every interview goes well, and it's not your fault. There's an element of randomness to all this. Your interviewer might just be having a bad day and you'll never hit it off. By the same token, maybe you have a lot in common and get thrown the easiest softball interview of your life. Don't sweat a rough interview and just keep going.
More people at T14s strike out than you'd think, and it's almost always because they bid terribly. The whole reason most of us go to law school is to get a job, so it's worth hustling for this.

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Re: Former V5/V15 NYC Associate Involved with Hiring; AMA

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:17 am

1) You spoke of red flags -- can you mention some? I want to be mindful that I stay away from saying anything that could be taken the wrong way. For instance, I have 10 years of prior work experience not in legal but at some great companies. 2) One thing I fear is that the partners/associates will think I don't sincerely want big law.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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