Columbia Law WIP/EIP Jan 2021 Forum

[Anonymous User]

-Reposted from previous years

Hey fellow Class of 2022ers,

Grades are coming back and the Offers by Honors reports are up on Symplicity, meaning that it's about time to start putting together bidlists for EIP. In this thread, we help one another put together suitable bidlists, share information, assuage fears, offer advice on interviews and callbacks, etc.

Past threads:
2019: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=301793
2018: ?
2017: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=278460
2016: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=265024
2015: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=248971
2014: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=231040
2013: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=211338
2012: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=187757
2011: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=162163

Here are the rules and some tips from last year:

I. Anonymous Handles

We all want to maintain some privacy during this process. That said, it is also nice to keep track of who is saying what. I recommend that everyone pick a handle with which to sign her anonymous posts (although you obviously don’t have to) so that we can keep track of one another.

II. Bidding

The basics of bidlist stuff should be straightforward even if you’re not Socrates: if you think other people are more likely to bid on a firm, you should bid it high. Firms that are less grade-selective or that have fewer interview spots are more competitive, so you should probably rank them higher. Don’t rank a firm high just because you want it, but if you really want a particular firm it might be good to rank it high for your peace of mind. The EIP Failed Bid Report helps with this, although relying too heavily on it could be a mistake (or so I've heard). Finally, spreading bids out between multiple markets increases the risk of striking out, especially if you don't have strong ties to those markets. We’ve all seen the data: there are just more jobs in New York, so NY is a solid backup for folks who are trying to head to California, Chicago, DC, etc.

III. Callbacks

Once we’re at least part-way through the first rings of interviewing hell, people will get callbacks. In past years, people would post the firm name and the initials of the person who interviewed them when they received a callback so that people would know that callbacks had gone out.

Good luck.

[Anonymous User]

-Repost of good advice

Here's Mono's advice from previous years. It's good stuff.

Okay, here are some things to think about:

(A) Strikeouts are real, even if it doesn't feel that way because nobody talks about it IRL. It was 13% for c/o 2016, and that is not a meaningless number. Everyone thinks it won't happen to them, until it does. Therefore, your number one priority is to get a job. If it happens to be the specific one you were angling for, great. But the downside risk you create by angling towards the hard-to-reach is way, way, WAY larger than the upside risk of getting this firm instead of that firm.



(B) The top three reasons people strike out are, in order:

3. Bad grades--Hopefully you've made your peace with this one by now, because it isn't changing. Bad grades, of course, won't help your case. But CLS has a very strong placement record, and bottom-of-the-class grades do not make it impossible, or even unlikely, that you'll be able to get a Biglaw job. Be comforted with that knowledge, and move on to the things you can actually affect.

2. Bad interviewing--Some people have dynamite charisma. Because you read TLS, that isn't you. So get your ass to OCS and start doing practice interviewing. Do as many as you can until they stop letting you in the building. Email them until they let you in purely on the knowledge that you'll annoy them if they don't. I think I did like seven. If you're so inclined, go to outside consultants who do this for a living. It helps you with the two important skills of EIP: Giving scripted answers that sound like you just came up with them, and giving the consistent energy/enthusiasm that makes it look like you'll shit bricks for the opportunity to talk to Insert Firm Name Here. It's a skill, and just like most other skills, some people are more naturally inclined, but pretty much everyone can get better with practice. If you do a shitton, then by the time EIP rolls around there won't be any questions that you haven't heard before. If you're tremendously awkward, the interviews aren't going to turn you into Don Draper overnight, but they have a decent chance of making you passable enough to hire.

1. Bad bidding--This is the worst thing students do every year. Many, maybe most, of the people who strikeout from CLS are doing something other than the prudent play, which is to fill your schedule with large-class NYC firms. Anything else entails an unnecessary risk. It's up to you to decide how badly you want something that isn't that, and whether your specific situation is such that you can afford to take on some kind of risk. But a good rule of thumb if you want to minimize the probability of debtfucking your life is that non-Stone students should be bidding a minimum of 20 large-class NYC firms. Regardless of GPA, this should include all of the following, unless you have a seriously good reason not to bid one of the above: Cadwalader, Clifford Chance, Fried Frank, Greenberg Traurig, Hogan, K&L Gates, Kaye Scholer, Kramer Levin, Mayer Brown, Milbank, Paul Hastings, Proskauer, Schulte, Sidley, and Willkie. If you are at least median-ish, that list should also include Kirkland, Ropes, and Shearman. To focus on anything besides the firms most likely to hire you if you are non-Stone is a significant risk.


(C) Do as many interviews as you can. OCS told me and other students, and will probably tell you, that you should keep your schedule to no more than 20 or so. That's utter nonsense. There is no risk to doing more interviews and you should not be shutting the door to any opportunity. Yes, it will be tiring. Drink some goddamn coffee. I had two cups each day, and those of you with higher caffeine tolerances will need more. Doesn't matter; there are available pots in the reception area. I was so tired at the end of each day that I immediately crashed when I got home. But I didn't do any interviews with anything less than 100% enthusiasm. I had 28 after bidding and raced like a madman to pick up anything that fit my schedule. For several days I was checking literally every 15 minutes to see if anyone had dropped anything (you don't have to be quite that insane). In the end, one of my offers was from a firm I picked up late in the process. I was lucky to have two others before that, but you never know which one you pick up might be the difference between Biglaw and debtpwnage. In the end, it's something of a numbers game. Think in terms of probability. It's tremendously hard to predict which firms will like you and which won't. There is often not a lot of rhyme or reason as to why Firm A called you back and Firm B didn't. Think of more interviews as more free tickets to a raffle--why would you turn down a chance to increase your odds? I had very bad grades and I don't think I'm any more likable than the next guy, but I had six callbacks, just due to the sheer volume of interviews that I did.


(D) OCS' advice is frequently bad. Take everything they say with a grain of salt. TLS consistently gives better advice. Last year, OCS told one kid that he couldn't get Simpson with a 3.7 without WE. That's nonsense. They told another kid that if he really wanted Cravath, he should bid them in his top five. That's just demonstrably really inefficient. I'm sure there are other "gems" I've forgotten.


(E) I have always been really confused as to why the average student seems to get so few of their lottery bids. This is really not a hard process. People who get fewer than 25 of their bids are doing something wrong. The first failed bid stuff is remarkably consistent year-to-year. Look up where Firm X could not be had last year. Move it a few spots above that to account for variability. This is really so easy and yet so many people in the past have messed it up. Do not be like those people.

[Anonymous User]

Hey everyone, just checking in here. Thats to whoever started this thread! How many bids did you guys end up with? I am a tad worried that I may be exhausted by the end of the day on a lot of these days. Staring at a computer screen all day is the absolute worst for me.

Best of luck to everyone!!!!

-Piston

[Anonymous User]

Hey everyone, just checking in here. Thats to whoever started this thread! How many bids did you guys end up with? I am a tad worried that I may be exhausted by the end of the day on a lot of these days. Staring at a computer screen all day is the absolute worst for me.

Best of luck to everyone!!!!

-Piston

I had 22 after bidding. Used add-drop to get 2 more.

-Maleficent

[Anonymous User]

I ended up with 21 screeners after the first lottery, but I'm probably going to drop down to ~10 based on a pre-OCI offer I received. I definitely sympathize with the Zoom exhaustion point.

Thanks for starting this thread. Hopefully we can hit critical mass and make this a useful, up-to-date resource for everybody!

-Eeyore

[Anonymous User]

Columbia 3L here to answer any questions if you guys have any!

-WKW

[Anonymous User]

I'm not a CLS student, but did go to CLS/NYU and recently made it to V10 NY office of a firm that I love very much. Some advice that I don't see on here so far:

1. Ask genuine questions, not just questions that are there to fill the time in an interview. It doesn't have to be the most interesting of all time, but something that you think is important to you will come across that way. It's good to show that your eye is on the future and you are hoping to see yourself in that role later in your life. It will help the interviewer picture it, too.

For me, it was very important to know about whether the firm I was going to respected things like individuality in dressing (i.e. can women paint their nails a non-traditional, non-muted color? Does the firm force them to wear stockings/suits all day even though they aren't going to court, etc.)? How easy would it be for a woman to stay in the field while one day starting a family? How hard would it be to get back into the swing of the office after having a kid? What would the firm be doing in the face of a downturn? How is the firm hedged? I tried to observe and ask questions that were important to me and I really recommend doing this because so much of the misery of big law, I think, comes from going to a firm that your personality isn't a great match for.

Even if it is the best firm in the world, if you feel at odds with the culture you won't be happy (e.g., I found Debevoise to be more reserved and Jones Day to be more conservative, two things I knew I was not when going on second-round callbacks even though both of those firms are very good). It's easy to forget you are also interviewing them even though the labor market has absolutely changed since I went through EIW/EIP in 2018-2019. You are desirable as an employee, so don't undersell yourself!

2. If you really want a firm like Proskauer, or Debevoise, O'Melviney, Kirkland, etc., you should bid them first. In my experience, those firms were pretty popular and they turned down a lot of students because of it. Kirkland takes a large class size, and so did Debevoise. Those two are more prestigious in this economy so definitely need to be bid first because many people will attempt to slide in their DMs, so to speak. But Proskauer and O'Melviney are a bit smaller and are genuinely very selective for callbacks in my experience.

3. If you get a callback, don't be a jerk to anyone you meet. It seems obvious, but I still remember telling my little helper-guide at my firm that another interviewing candidate had said something quite disparaging toward my qualifications just before we went in for out interviews. Even though we went to the same school and were in the same callback, he said something offhandedly to the tune of: "I can't believe you're here. I didn't think you would do that well" while we were waiting.

Surprisingly (lol), he did not get an offer. Though he did end up at another good firm! That wasn't my intention, but people talk and there's no way to know if he was overheard by someone who had more power than I did as a fellow interviewee and who thought his comment wouldn't fit in at the firm. It goes without saying but you do need to be extremely cautious with drinking and speaking at these events (both very easy to accidentally screw up). Obviously, this advice has somewhat decreased in relevancy since covid-19 hit, but it's never a bad idea to remember people gossip a LOT at firms, and they may not be that kind in what they say. You DO NOT want to put yourself in that position by making a comment that was perceived as being rude.

4. Take some interest in your interviewer. You may not be the most charismatic but you can come prepared with some information about the person you're being interviewed by to help the conversation flow like pro bono work they've done that might be interesting or background info.

If you're in their office for a callback or can see some things in their zoom background, then take note of how they decorate. Give a small compliment: "I love that painting, who's the artist?" "I love your dress, I've been looking for one just like it, would you tell me where you got it?" "Wow, it looks like you like climbing mountains, me too!" "I've been to that vineyard as well! So beautiful." Don't be a creep, but make them feel like you're just a normal human being with whom they can hold a conversation. Talking about interests and low-level flattery does help people open up to you!

There's no requirement that you actually talk about legal stuff in an interview. The interview that cinched my offer at my current firm was spent talking politics with the partner and cracking jokes. Be genuine, give a real compliment, and just be nice! People need that, even associates and partners.

5. Sometimes interviews just don't work out. Nothing can be done about it. You may be bored out of your mind while they're talking to you, they may press for an answer you don't really have or know about, or they may even be kind of rude to you. Don't let it throw you and don't take it to heart. At the end of the day, somethings just happen in ways that feel unfortunate and personal but are not.

I promise you that you'll make it out alive even if you encounter a rude interviewer. Also, don't be afraid to politely pushback on something if it's not going well. Never be afraid to walk away from an interview if you really hate it. It's okay. It happens. Not every single one will be a slam dunk, even for a good interviewee. It's exhausting to sell yourself over and over again and that's okay. Don't be too hard on yourself re: things that don't go your way, especially these days.

I've had my fair share, including someone who asked me why I felt my paid but not prestigious work experience was relevant on my resume -- like running a coffee shop. To her, I said calmly: "Not everyone is privileged enough to give their labor for free in college. I had to work to survive in New York. I feel that's relevant to showing my tenacity and grit because while maintaining a full course load I ran a store doing over XYZ in transactions a day." It was both polite enough and trite enough to show her that she had been rude to me but not rude enough to make her feel as though I'd been insubordinate. You aren't a beggar even in this economy, you're a highly educated, highly competent graduate student who has made it through far scarier conversations than a mild one about your interests and experiences. You are at an extremely prestigious and difficult law school. You're all going to do great!

Good luck!

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

-Repost of good advice

Here's Mono's advice from previous years. It's good stuff.

Okay, here are some things to think about:

(A) Strikeouts are real, even if it doesn't feel that way because nobody talks about it IRL. It was 13% for c/o 2016, and that is not a meaningless number. Everyone thinks it won't happen to them, until it does. Therefore, your number one priority is to get a job. If it happens to be the specific one you were angling for, great. But the downside risk you create by angling towards the hard-to-reach is way, way, WAY larger than the upside risk of getting this firm instead of that firm.



(B) The top three reasons people strike out are, in order:

3. Bad grades--Hopefully you've made your peace with this one by now, because it isn't changing. Bad grades, of course, won't help your case. But CLS has a very strong placement record, and bottom-of-the-class grades do not make it impossible, or even unlikely, that you'll be able to get a Biglaw job. Be comforted with that knowledge, and move on to the things you can actually affect.

2. Bad interviewing--Some people have dynamite charisma. Because you read TLS, that isn't you. So get your ass to OCS and start doing practice interviewing. Do as many as you can until they stop letting you in the building. Email them until they let you in purely on the knowledge that you'll annoy them if they don't. I think I did like seven. If you're so inclined, go to outside consultants who do this for a living. It helps you with the two important skills of EIP: Giving scripted answers that sound like you just came up with them, and giving the consistent energy/enthusiasm that makes it look like you'll shit bricks for the opportunity to talk to Insert Firm Name Here. It's a skill, and just like most other skills, some people are more naturally inclined, but pretty much everyone can get better with practice. If you do a shitton, then by the time EIP rolls around there won't be any questions that you haven't heard before. If you're tremendously awkward, the interviews aren't going to turn you into Don Draper overnight, but they have a decent chance of making you passable enough to hire.

1. Bad bidding--This is the worst thing students do every year. Many, maybe most, of the people who strikeout from CLS are doing something other than the prudent play, which is to fill your schedule with large-class NYC firms. Anything else entails an unnecessary risk. It's up to you to decide how badly you want something that isn't that, and whether your specific situation is such that you can afford to take on some kind of risk. But a good rule of thumb if you want to minimize the probability of debtfucking your life is that non-Stone students should be bidding a minimum of 20 large-class NYC firms. Regardless of GPA, this should include all of the following, unless you have a seriously good reason not to bid one of the above: Cadwalader, Clifford Chance, Fried Frank, Greenberg Traurig, Hogan, K&L Gates, Kaye Scholer, Kramer Levin, Mayer Brown, Milbank, Paul Hastings, Proskauer, Schulte, Sidley, and Willkie. If you are at least median-ish, that list should also include Kirkland, Ropes, and Shearman. To focus on anything besides the firms most likely to hire you if you are non-Stone is a significant risk.


(C) Do as many interviews as you can. OCS told me and other students, and will probably tell you, that you should keep your schedule to no more than 20 or so. That's utter nonsense. There is no risk to doing more interviews and you should not be shutting the door to any opportunity. Yes, it will be tiring. Drink some goddamn coffee. I had two cups each day, and those of you with higher caffeine tolerances will need more. Doesn't matter; there are available pots in the reception area. I was so tired at the end of each day that I immediately crashed when I got home. But I didn't do any interviews with anything less than 100% enthusiasm. I had 28 after bidding and raced like a madman to pick up anything that fit my schedule. For several days I was checking literally every 15 minutes to see if anyone had dropped anything (you don't have to be quite that insane). In the end, one of my offers was from a firm I picked up late in the process. I was lucky to have two others before that, but you never know which one you pick up might be the difference between Biglaw and debtpwnage. In the end, it's something of a numbers game. Think in terms of probability. It's tremendously hard to predict which firms will like you and which won't. There is often not a lot of rhyme or reason as to why Firm A called you back and Firm B didn't. Think of more interviews as more free tickets to a raffle--why would you turn down a chance to increase your odds? I had very bad grades and I don't think I'm any more likable than the next guy, but I had six callbacks, just due to the sheer volume of interviews that I did.


(D) OCS' advice is frequently bad. Take everything they say with a grain of salt. TLS consistently gives better advice. Last year, OCS told one kid that he couldn't get Simpson with a 3.7 without WE. That's nonsense. They told another kid that if he really wanted Cravath, he should bid them in his top five. That's just demonstrably really inefficient. I'm sure there are other "gems" I've forgotten.


(E) I have always been really confused as to why the average student seems to get so few of their lottery bids. This is really not a hard process. People who get fewer than 25 of their bids are doing something wrong. The first failed bid stuff is remarkably consistent year-to-year. Look up where Firm X could not be had last year. Move it a few spots above that to account for variability. This is really so easy and yet so many people in the past have messed it up. Do not be like those people.

Warms my heart to see this reposted *six years* (!) after I wrote it.

The particulars may have changed to the extent the data is different from 2015, but the broader message stands.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone care to guess how in the flying fuck firms are gonna analyze our transcripts? We had one semester of 1L curve, 1 semester of DH/P/F, and now a semester of 2L curve. I managed to do quite well first semester and snagged a DH second semester, but I am pretty worried that my 2L fall grades will drop off. Any guesses how firms will analyze this?

-Piston

[Anonymous User]

I've heard conjecture that firms will weigh performance in 2L black letter law classes similarly to 1L courses. My guess is that it'll probably vary from firm to firm. The real question is: when will grades start trickling in?

- Anchor

[Anonymous User]

Anyone care to guess how in the flying fuck firms are gonna analyze our transcripts? We had one semester of 1L curve, 1 semester of DH/P/F, and now a semester of 2L curve. I managed to do quite well first semester and snagged a DH second semester, but I am pretty worried that my 2L fall grades will drop off. Any guesses how firms will analyze this?

-Piston

Based on what some associates have told me, 1L Fall will probably be weighed more heavily than 2L fall due to the same 1L doctrinals, in person classes, pandemic, etc. Unsure how true this really is, and I'm sure 2L fall will still mean something though.

[Anonymous User]

I come from a non-business background and have no particular interest in business/finance outside of its intersection with the law. I also have lit coursework but no business coursework. Should I expect questions about that, and how can I spin it given NY's finance focus? Cards on the table, I have no interest in biglaw besides the career opportunities and do not plan to stay for long.

-Rorschach

[Anonymous User]

[duplicate]

[Anonymous User]

I've heard conjecture that firms will weigh performance in 2L black letter law classes similarly to 1L courses. My guess is that it'll probably vary from firm to firm. The real question is: when will grades start trickling in?

- Anchor

Do we know if grades are gonna trickle in or will the registrar hold them till one specific day like they did last year?

-Piston

[Anonymous User]

I've heard conjecture that firms will weigh performance in 2L black letter law classes similarly to 1L courses. My guess is that it'll probably vary from firm to firm. The real question is: when will grades start trickling in?

- Anchor

Do we know if grades are gonna trickle in or will the registrar hold them till one specific day like they did last year?

-Piston

Already received 2 grades, although one of them was my note.

-Maleficent

[Anonymous User]

I come from a non-business background and have no particular interest in business/finance outside of its intersection with the law. I also have lit coursework but no business coursework. Should I expect questions about that, and how can I spin it given NY's finance focus? Cards on the table, I have no interest in biglaw besides the career opportunities and do not plan to stay for long.

-Rorschach

The firms will ask you if you have an interest, but you can say you’re open to everything and want to decide during summer. Firms know most students don’t really have any experience with legal work and don’t expect you to indicate a clear preference either way. Plenty of people just want Big Law for the money, opportunities, etc. Just say that you want to do interesting complex legal work and that’ll be fine.

-WKW

[Anonymous User]

I've heard conjecture that firms will weigh performance in 2L black letter law classes similarly to 1L courses. My guess is that it'll probably vary from firm to firm. The real question is: when will grades start trickling in?

- Anchor

Do we know if grades are gonna trickle in or will the registrar hold them till one specific day like they did last year?

-Piston

Already received 2 grades, although one of them was my note.

-Maleficient

When did you receive grades? My note advisor said they entered the grade over a month ago but it still hasn't shown up yet.

-Quixotic

[Anonymous User]

None of the 2-3 people I've spoken to about this have received any grades yet either. I got my grade for a cross-registered class this morning but would be shocked to see movement on my transcript within 48 hours (I guess I have a pretty dim view of the registrar).

- Anchor

[Anonymous User]

I have received no grades.

-Rorschach

[Anonymous User]

I've heard conjecture that firms will weigh performance in 2L black letter law classes similarly to 1L courses. My guess is that it'll probably vary from firm to firm. The real question is: when will grades start trickling in?

- Anchor

Do we know if grades are gonna trickle in or will the registrar hold them till one specific day like they did last year?

-Piston

Already received 2 grades, although one of them was my note.

-Maleficent

When did you receive grades? My note advisor said they entered the grade over a month ago but it still hasn't shown up yet.

-Quixotic

Note grade appeared on the transcript mid-December. For the other grade, the Professor sent the entire class grades about a week after the exam.

-Maleficient

[Anonymous User]

Confirmed with OCS today that the registrar has been instructed to release grades as they get them. Not sure that’s reassuring since it means current delays are all down to the profs.

- Anchor

[Anonymous User]

Confirmed with OCS today that the registrar has been instructed to release grades as they get them. Not sure that’s reassuring since it means current delays are all down to the profs.

- Anchor

FWIW, a professor in one of my classes has posted grades (to Courseworks), but that grade doesn't yet appear on LawNet. So I'm not totally confident that OCS is right about that.

[Anonymous User]

Confirmed with OCS today that the registrar has been instructed to release grades as they get them. Not sure that’s reassuring since it means current delays are all down to the profs.

- Anchor

FWIW, a professor in one of my classes has posted grades (to Courseworks), but that grade doesn't yet appear on LawNet. So I'm not totally confident that OCS is right about that.

I didn't even know there were any professors that posted grades on Courseworsk lol

[Anonymous User]

Here we are on Friday, and I’m still at 0/4 grades posted. This is all going about as well as I expected.

-Eeyore

[Anonymous User]

Here we are on Friday, and I’m still at 0/4 grades posted. This is all going about as well as I expected.

-Eeyore

Sucks that your professors are taking so long. Good luck on the grades though!!

Piston