Cadwalader vs. Alston (both Charlotte) Forum

[Anonymous User]

For general transactional work. Cadwalader does mostly finance, whereas Alston would include some general corporate and PE M&A as well. I'm not sure that Alston pays full NY market, but CWT does. Anyone have insight on which would be better for in-house exit options as a midlevel/senior? Looking to keep some geographic flexibility (may want to move to a bigger city). General opinions on the firms and their cultures?

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Looks like poll is coming back 75/25 for Alston. Can anybody explain why it makes more sense to pick the firm that pays below market? The difference in pay seems to get pretty steep, so there must be really convincing non-money reasons. I know CWT gets ripped on pretty routinely, but is that it?

[malibustacy]

https://abovethelaw.com/2020/03/am-law- ... 5-percent/

Surprised anyone with any talent is still working there.

[LawrenceGazebo]

OP here. Looks like poll is coming back 75/25 for Alston. Can anybody explain why it makes more sense to pick the firm that pays below market? The difference in pay seems to get pretty steep, so there must be really convincing non-money reasons. I know CWT gets ripped on pretty routinely, but is that it?

Cadwalader or however you spell it has a terrible reputation (I don't pay close attention but have heard enough--they definitely cut pay during covid, and they had a bad rep. before then), and I think Alston has a fine reputation. I've been on deals with A&B who was repping trustees they've seemed fine. Never been across from Cadwalader in any capacity.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Looks like poll is coming back 75/25 for Alston. Can anybody explain why it makes more sense to pick the firm that pays below market? The difference in pay seems to get pretty steep, so there must be really convincing non-money reasons. I know CWT gets ripped on pretty routinely, but is that it?

Cadwalader or however you spell it has a terrible reputation (I don't pay close attention but have heard enough--they definitely cut pay during covid, and they had a bad rep. before then), and I think Alston has a fine reputation. I've been on deals with A&B who was repping trustees they've seemed fine. Never been across from Cadwalader in any capacity.

OP here. Thanks -- is CWT's trash rep something that would impact exit options? Or is this coming from a purely QOL while working there kind of perspective?

[Anonymous User]

CWT rep a ridiculous amount of large banks in structured finance transactions and are generally pleasant to work with. They are highly leveraged so would be wary of that market fluctuations impact them heavily.

If they are paying market and Alston is not and you are OK with finance, idk about the poll outcome

[TMJ2017]

Mid-level big law associate here. I would take the firm that pays market over the non-market paying firm every time. Anyone who thinks coming from a non-market paying firm doesn't put you at a disadvantage in the lateral market is woefully misinformed.

Can't speak to culture of either place, but given that Charlotte is non-HQ for both firms, conventional internet lore re: "firm cultures" should be taken with even more of a heaping pile of salt than usual. Also, it's pretty easy to lateral from a market paying firm these days once you are a second year (emphasis on "market paying firm"), including trading up firms, especially in transactional practices.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone who thinks coming from a non-market paying firm doesn't put you at a disadvantage in the lateral market is woefully misinformed.

OP here -- I've actually never heard that before, mind elaborating? It was a pain to even figure out that Alston CLT might not pay market (still not clear honestly, since there are articles about them raising a couple years ago), I wonder how possible lateral targets would know or why they would care as long as it's a brand name shop.

[TMJ2017]

Salary is a proxy for how hard you had to work at your prior job and how “valuable” the work you did was from a revenue perspective. Moreover, from the perspective of a lateral recruiter, particularly at the junior / mid level ranks, all they have to go on is your current job and your law school rank/grades. The assumption will be you couldn’t find a market paying job if you don’t currently hold a market paying job.

[existentialcrisis]

OP here. Looks like poll is coming back 75/25 for Alston. Can anybody explain why it makes more sense to pick the firm that pays below market? The difference in pay seems to get pretty steep, so there must be really convincing non-money reasons. I know CWT gets ripped on pretty routinely, but is that it?

Cadwalader or however you spell it has a terrible reputation (I don't pay close attention but have heard enough--they definitely cut pay during covid, and they had a bad rep. before then), and I think Alston has a fine reputation. I've been on deals with A&B who was repping trustees they've seemed fine. Never been across from Cadwalader in any capacity.

OP here. Thanks -- is CWT's trash rep something that would impact exit options? Or is this coming from a purely QOL while working there kind of perspective?

Charlotte has a million banks there, so possibly Cadwalader may have good exits there, I wouldn’t know.

Generally though, general corporate is a more marketable skill set in terms of exits than structured or debt finance.

[2013]

Salary is a proxy for how hard you had to work at your prior job and how “valuable” the work you did was from a revenue perspective. Moreover, from the perspective of a lateral recruiter, particularly at the junior / mid level ranks, all they have to go on is your current job and your law school rank/grades. The assumption will be you couldn’t find a market paying job if you don’t currently hold a market paying job.

Although generally true, if you had an offer at RBH and you turned it down, that would be a mistake. I know a few attorneys there, and it’s considered the best firm in the area even though it pays nowhere near market.

[Anonymous User]

Mid-level big law associate here. I would take the firm that pays market over the non-market paying firm every time. Anyone who thinks coming from a non-market paying firm doesn't put you at a disadvantage in the lateral market is woefully misinformed.

Can't speak to culture of either place, but given that Charlotte is non-HQ for both firms, conventional internet lore re: "firm cultures" should be taken with even more of a heaping pile of salt than usual. Also, it's pretty easy to lateral from a market paying firm these days once you are a second year (emphasis on "market paying firm"), including trading up firms, especially in transactional practices.

More senior person here - on CWT's has a rough rep for culture, I'm guessing this has more to do with their NY office than anything. I've dealt a lot with their Charlotte office and I've always genuinely liked working opposite their teams (often more so than other firms with "nice" cultures). Could be that the cultural problem is an inward thing or could be that it's a holdover from "ITE"-TLS, not sure and don't care, but my anecdotal experience has been positive.

[TMJ2017]

Mid-level big law associate here. I would take the firm that pays market over the non-market paying firm every time. Anyone who thinks coming from a non-market paying firm doesn't put you at a disadvantage in the lateral market is woefully misinformed.

Can't speak to culture of either place, but given that Charlotte is non-HQ for both firms, conventional internet lore re: "firm cultures" should be taken with even more of a heaping pile of salt than usual. Also, it's pretty easy to lateral from a market paying firm these days once you are a second year (emphasis on "market paying firm"), including trading up firms, especially in transactional practices.

More senior person here - on CWT's has a rough rep for culture, I'm guessing this has more to do with their NY office than anything. I've dealt a lot with their Charlotte office and I've always genuinely liked working opposite their teams (often more so than other firms with "nice" cultures). Could be that the cultural problem is an inward thing or could be that it's a holdover from "ITE"-TLS, not sure and don't care, but my anecdotal experience has been positive.

OP - I think you should take what the anon above says seriously, given that he/she has actual knowledge of CWT Charlotte and not faux-knowledge rooted in "ITE" and "pre-ITE" posts from the early part of this century on cesspools like xoxohth. I'd also emphasize that, particularly in a recession, turning down some tens of thousands of dollars and starting your career as a "non-market pay" attorney is a fool's errand given your stated goals.

[LawrenceGazebo]

Mid-level big law associate here. I would take the firm that pays market over the non-market paying firm every time. Anyone who thinks coming from a non-market paying firm doesn't put you at a disadvantage in the lateral market is woefully misinformed.

Can't speak to culture of either place, but given that Charlotte is non-HQ for both firms, conventional internet lore re: "firm cultures" should be taken with even more of a heaping pile of salt than usual. Also, it's pretty easy to lateral from a market paying firm these days once you are a second year (emphasis on "market paying firm"), including trading up firms, especially in transactional practices.

More senior person here - on CWT's has a rough rep for culture, I'm guessing this has more to do with their NY office than anything. I've dealt a lot with their Charlotte office and I've always genuinely liked working opposite their teams (often more so than other firms with "nice" cultures). Could be that the cultural problem is an inward thing or could be that it's a holdover from "ITE"-TLS, not sure and don't care, but my anecdotal experience has been positive.

OP - I think you should take what the anon above says seriously, given that he/she has actual knowledge of CWT Charlotte and not faux-knowledge rooted in "ITE" and "pre-ITE" posts from the early part of this century on cesspools like xoxohth. I'd also emphasize that, particularly in a recession, turning down some tens of thousands of dollars and starting your career as a "non-market pay" attorney is a fool's errand given your stated goals.

So to confirm, nobody knows shit about the exit options. Great.

[Anonymous User]

Go with Alston - they will have a much better all-around transactional practice and are a southern firm with national presence. Not sure where the Cadwalder > Alston stuff is coming from, but those things shouldn't be taken seriously unless you want to be in NYC and/or you want to do finance. Sure, you can make more money at CWT, but in my experience I think Alston has a better culture and more opportunities to do work outside of financial institutions practices.

I left an NYC firm for an ATL based firm that is "less prestigious" than Alston, and while comp is less, partnership track is real, the people are better and my opportunities are better to lead deals. Sure, my clients are no longer top PE funds, but its a good mix of public and private M&A and general corporate work.

Also - exit options stuff is a myth. Unless you are at a truly top firm, any of these huge firms will provide decent exit options. It might even be better from Alston if you get responsibility early on and get to know local clients well. Just don't think that market pay NYC-based firm > non-market non-NYC firm for exit options since I don't think that is true at all.

[TMJ2017]

Go with Alston - they will have a much better all-around transactional practice and are a southern firm with national presence. Not sure where the Cadwalder > Alston stuff is coming from, but those things shouldn't be taken seriously unless you want to be in NYC and/or you want to do finance. Sure, you can make more money at CWT, but in my experience I think Alston has a better culture and more opportunities to do work outside of financial institutions practices.

I left an NYC firm for an ATL based firm that is "less prestigious" than Alston, and while comp is less, partnership track is real, the people are better and my opportunities are better to lead deals. Sure, my clients are no longer top PE funds, but its a good mix of public and private M&A and general corporate work.

Also - exit options stuff is a myth. Unless you are at a truly top firm, any of these huge firms will provide decent exit options. It might even be better from Alston if you get responsibility early on and get to know local clients well. Just don't think that market pay NYC-based firm > non-market non-NYC firm for exit options since I don't think that is true at all.

I agree generally with your post, but it's rare these days to go from first firm after law school--->in-house (not because you can't, but just because it's very easy to trade up from a v50 to a v15 once you get into your second or third year, particularly in non-M&A, non-LIT, and thus broaden your exit options.) I know several people who have lateraled from, for example, finance/lev fin at the NYC offices of Dechert and Dechert-like firms---> finance/levfin at K&E, Latham, Paul Weiss, etc. Going to one of the latter will broaden your exit options greatly, and you'll even have an outside shot at making partner and joining America's elite overclass. My guess is it will be easier to do this type of move from a "market paying" Charlotte firm (in this case, CWT) as opposed to a non-market paying Charlotte firm. But it really comes down to OP's personal goals and whether they want to keep their NYC or other major market options open. JMTC.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Looks like poll is coming back 75/25 for Alston. Can anybody explain why it makes more sense to pick the firm that pays below market? The difference in pay seems to get pretty steep, so there must be really convincing non-money reasons. I know CWT gets ripped on pretty routinely, but is that it?

Cadwalader or however you spell it has a terrible reputation (I don't pay close attention but have heard enough--they definitely cut pay during covid, and they had a bad rep. before then), and I think Alston has a fine reputation. I've been on deals with A&B who was repping trustees they've seemed fine. Never been across from Cadwalader in any capacity.

OP here. Thanks -- is CWT's trash rep something that would impact exit options? Or is this coming from a purely QOL while working there kind of perspective?

Not in Charlotte, but I’m in CWT’s New York office and actively trying to lateral out. Most NYC firms know CWT sucks and that’s why I’m trying to lateral out. So yes, the CWT rep will impact lateral moves, since everyone knows CWT’s culture sucks. But it’s not a huge impact in lateral interviews, just an unspoken understanding and you may need to show you have a good attitude and won’t bring the CWT culture to your new firm. Probably won’t matter for in-house.

I’ve worked with Charlotte before and my experience wasn’t awful but wasn’t fantastic either. The guy was generally a jerk but not a screamer or anything awful. I get the feeling that they are overworked there, but I guess that’s biglaw.

I also know CWT tried to push Charlotte associates back into the office earlier this year (not sure if they’re in office right now) and are going to require NYC associates to return to the office soon (early Q1 2021, told by the partners it may be before the vaccine) so be wary of that.

Personally I’d go with Alston. Better diversity of work & better culture is worth below market considering the lower cost of living. CWT has also been refocusing its efforts to NYC and London, so there’s less job security.

[TMJ2017]

OP here. Looks like poll is coming back 75/25 for Alston. Can anybody explain why it makes more sense to pick the firm that pays below market? The difference in pay seems to get pretty steep, so there must be really convincing non-money reasons. I know CWT gets ripped on pretty routinely, but is that it?

Cadwalader or however you spell it has a terrible reputation (I don't pay close attention but have heard enough--they definitely cut pay during covid, and they had a bad rep. before then), and I think Alston has a fine reputation. I've been on deals with A&B who was repping trustees they've seemed fine. Never been across from Cadwalader in any capacity.

OP here. Thanks -- is CWT's trash rep something that would impact exit options? Or is this coming from a purely QOL while working there kind of perspective?

Not in Charlotte, but I’m in CWT’s New York office and actively trying to lateral out. Most NYC firms know CWT sucks and that’s why I’m trying to lateral out. So yes, the CWT rep will impact lateral moves, since everyone knows CWT’s culture sucks. But it’s not a huge impact in lateral interviews, just an unspoken understanding and you may need to show you have a good attitude and won’t bring the CWT culture to your new firm. Probably won’t matter for in-house.

I’ve worked with Charlotte before and my experience wasn’t awful but wasn’t fantastic either. The guy was generally a jerk but not a screamer or anything awful. I get the feeling that they are overworked there, but I guess that’s biglaw.

I also know CWT tried to push Charlotte associates back into the office earlier this year (not sure if they’re in office right now) and are going to require NYC associates to return to the office soon (early Q1 2021, told by the partners it may be before the vaccine) so be wary of that.

Personally I’d go with Alston. Better diversity of work & better culture is worth below market considering the lower cost of living. CWT has also been refocusing its efforts to NYC and London, so there’s less job security.

Thanks for the insight. I’m wondering out of curiosity - which practice are you in and are you a junior, mid-level or senior? My understanding is CWT Lit is surprisingly chill, while certain transactional practices are more in line with internet-lore.

[Anonymous User]

finance/levfin at K&E, Latham, Paul Weiss, etc. Going to one of the latter will broaden your exit options greatly

I've never heard these firms "broaden your exit options greatly".

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Looks like poll is coming back 75/25 for Alston. Can anybody explain why it makes more sense to pick the firm that pays below market? The difference in pay seems to get pretty steep, so there must be really convincing non-money reasons. I know CWT gets ripped on pretty routinely, but is that it?

Cadwalader or however you spell it has a terrible reputation (I don't pay close attention but have heard enough--they definitely cut pay during covid, and they had a bad rep. before then), and I think Alston has a fine reputation. I've been on deals with A&B who was repping trustees they've seemed fine. Never been across from Cadwalader in any capacity.

OP here. Thanks -- is CWT's trash rep something that would impact exit options? Or is this coming from a purely QOL while working there kind of perspective?

Not in Charlotte, but I’m in CWT’s New York office and actively trying to lateral out. Most NYC firms know CWT sucks and that’s why I’m trying to lateral out. So yes, the CWT rep will impact lateral moves, since everyone knows CWT’s culture sucks. But it’s not a huge impact in lateral interviews, just an unspoken understanding and you may need to show you have a good attitude and won’t bring the CWT culture to your new firm. Probably won’t matter for in-house.

I’ve worked with Charlotte before and my experience wasn’t awful but wasn’t fantastic either. The guy was generally a jerk but not a screamer or anything awful. I get the feeling that they are overworked there, but I guess that’s biglaw.

I also know CWT tried to push Charlotte associates back into the office earlier this year (not sure if they’re in office right now) and are going to require NYC associates to return to the office soon (early Q1 2021, told by the partners it may be before the vaccine) so be wary of that.

Personally I’d go with Alston. Better diversity of work & better culture is worth below market considering the lower cost of living. CWT has also been refocusing its efforts to NYC and London, so there’s less job security.

Thanks for the insight. I’m wondering out of curiosity - which practice are you in and are you a junior, mid-level or senior? My understanding is CWT Lit is surprisingly chill, while certain transactional practices are more in line with internet-lore.

I’m in a transactional practice and a junior/mid-level. CWT’s lit associates seem happier generally than transactional ones (I remember them being shocked that transactional associates worked around the clock all weekend when they were on a transactional deal).


My practice group isn’t as bad as all of the lore (things being thrown at you, most partners are screamers) but it’s not too far off (things are thrown, just at the floor or wall not at you and some partners are screamers).

[TMJ2017]

Lol thanks. Balking at weekend work is hilarious and CWT Lit should be more venerated on this forum and elsewhere if that’s the case.

Re: the partner behavior you’re describing, with all due respect, how do you know if this behavior is better or worse than other transactional practices in NYC BigLaw if you’re only a junior and this is your first BigLaw gig? For instance, my “good culture” v50 has partners who will punch the wall on conference calls with opposing counsel here and there or maybe raise their voice to another senior lawyer on the team or to opposing counsel (but never at a junior associate on their own team, so context matters for comparison purposes).

FWIW, I’m interested in this “firm culture” topic because I’m considering a lateral move myself after having worked here since graduating law school, but all the places I’m thinking of going to have “worse” cultures than my current firm according to TLS, etc., so I’m interested in knowing whether or not claims about culture on this forum have any merit.

[Anonymous User]

Lol thanks. Balking at weekend work is hilarious and CWT Lit should be more venerated on this forum and elsewhere if that’s the case.

Re: the partner behavior you’re describing, with all due respect, how do you know if this behavior is better or worse than other transactional practices in NYC BigLaw if you’re only a junior and this is your first BigLaw gig? For instance, my “good culture” v50 has partners who will punch the wall on conference calls with opposing counsel here and there or maybe raise their voice to another senior lawyer on the team or to opposing counsel (but never at a junior associate on their own team, so context matters for comparison purposes).

FWIW, I’m interested in this “firm culture” topic because I’m considering a lateral move myself after having worked here since graduating law school, but all the places I’m thinking of going to have “worse” cultures than my current firm according to TLS, etc., so I’m interested in knowing whether or not claims about culture on this forum have any merit.

Sorry, should have clarified that they had an issue at how late and how long they were asked to work on weekends (all weekend at all hours). CWT Lit works weekends.

I don’t have first hand experience obviously. But I can tell you I keep in contact with people who have left for peer/better firms, even ones with higher billable hours and they like it a lot more and have told me it’s night and day. Might be a grass is greener scenario.

I think there’s a difference because the yelling is at you or the throwing is about your work, rather than at the other side. But I take your point.

[TMJ2017]

Lol thanks. Balking at weekend work is hilarious and CWT Lit should be more venerated on this forum and elsewhere if that’s the case.

Re: the partner behavior you’re describing, with all due respect, how do you know if this behavior is better or worse than other transactional practices in NYC BigLaw if you’re only a junior and this is your first BigLaw gig? For instance, my “good culture” v50 has partners who will punch the wall on conference calls with opposing counsel here and there or maybe raise their voice to another senior lawyer on the team or to opposing counsel (but never at a junior associate on their own team, so context matters for comparison purposes).

FWIW, I’m interested in this “firm culture” topic because I’m considering a lateral move myself after having worked here since graduating law school, but all the places I’m thinking of going to have “worse” cultures than my current firm according to TLS, etc., so I’m interested in knowing whether or not claims about culture on this forum have any merit.

Sorry, should have clarified that they had an issue at how late and how long they were asked to work on weekends (all weekend at all hours). CWT Lit works weekends.

I don’t have first hand experience obviously. But I can tell you I keep in contact with people who have left for peer/better firms, even ones with higher billable hours and they like it a lot more and have told me it’s night and day. Might be a grass is greener scenario.

I think there’s a difference because the yelling is at you or the throwing is about your work, rather than at the other side. But I take your point.

Thanks for the reply and yeah that is definitely a big difference. I have heard firsthand about that (and worse) happening at certain V15s as well, but I guess the consensus is the “prestige” of those firms makes working in such an environment a worthwhile tradeoff, whereas once you’re comparing firms in the v30-v100 range of firms (like my firm, CWT, Alston) parsing cultural differences and work environment matters more.

Good luck with your search!

[Anonymous User]

If CWT NYC is a C- big law experience then CWT CLT is a B+ but it is largely dependent on who you work for, how busy they are and where the office is at a given time. Pros: (1) office management certainly cares more than the generic biglaw leadership or at least does lip service better than most; (2) the office typically is very profitable and up until very recently had low turnover; and (3) there is a good crop of junior and midlevel associates. Cons: (1) everything done in CLT is very niche; (2) the office has big personalities who take getting use to; (3) there is very little career transparency and frankly no one really knows where they stand and the progression for associates is very opaque; and (4) the firm as a whole is run by about a dozen rainmakers, many of whom are stereotypical biglaw partners.

[Anonymous User]

If CWT NYC is a C- big law experience then CWT CLT is a B+ but it is largely dependent on who you work for, how busy they are and where the office is at a given time. Pros: (1) office management certainly cares more than the generic biglaw leadership or at least does lip service better than most; (2) the office typically is very profitable and up until very recently had low turnover; and (3) there is a good crop of junior and midlevel associates. Cons: (1) everything done in CLT is very niche; (2) the office has big personalities who take getting use to; (3) there is very little career transparency and frankly no one really knows where they stand and the progression for associates is very opaque; and (4) the firm as a whole is run by about a dozen rainmakers, many of whom are stereotypical biglaw partners.

OP here. This is EXTREMELY helpful. From what I know from other sources, it seems like the CLT office is a niche within the niche -- seems like four flavors of "finance" groups: Capital Markets, Bank Finance, Fund Finance and Real Estate (disregarding Lit obviously). Any insight into the cultures/work on the group level? Any specific reason for the recent turnover?