Advice for working with this associate Forum

[Anonymous User]

First year associate who just started a few months ago in biglaw. After being slammed, I only got 2 hours of sleep and briefly took a nap in the morning. During that time, a mid-level sent an email asking to review a document. Was asleep and answered the email 20 minutes later. The mid-level got pretty upset and then she called me and said this is unacceptable and must respond the second I get her emails. Obviously, I will try, but I am not sure how realistic this is. And the mid-level proceeded to instruct me to un-cc the partner and then only cc the mid level and jump on the due diligence tasks. Should I un cc the partner and listen to the mid-level? It seems a little sketchy.

[TigerIsBack]

First year associate who just started a few months ago in biglaw. After being slammed, I only got 2 hours of sleep and briefly took a nap in the morning. During that time, a mid-level sent an email asking to review a document. Was asleep and answered the email 20 minutes later. The mid-level got pretty upset and then she called me and said this is unacceptable and must respond the second I get her emails. Obviously, I will try, but I am not sure how realistic this is. And the mid-level proceeded to instruct me to un-cc the partner and then only cc the mid level and jump on the due diligence tasks. Should I un cc the partner and listen to the mid-level? It seems a little sketchy.

This seems absurd. Were you in the middle of signing or closing happening that morning? What time of morning was this? Seems like this midlevel is an absolute nightmare and might be worth discussing with another midlevel/senior associate that you trust and frame your question more in the tone of you want to figure out how to keep that person happy and make sure you're doing a good job for them, but also within the confines of reality.

Most likely this midlevel is just a nightmare and no one wants to work with them.

[Anonymous User]

That's insane. Twenty minutes is a perfectly reasonable amount of time. If it was truly that urgent and required an immediate within-seconds response, she should have called you.

Don't feel bad. There are definitely times when you will fuck up and need to take feedback to heart. This is not one of those times.

[Anonymous User]

No. She wanted me to run some redlines and incorporate the comments from the other side. She never informed me it was urgent. She also just emailed me privately without ccing the partner, even though the partner asked her to do it.
And I feel very bad because she told me she felt disrespected, since I seem to respond to partners right away. I really don’t know what to do with this situation because I don’t think it’s right to un cc the partner.

[Anonymous User]

Op: she emailed me at around 830, and I answered at around 9 or so

[Definitely Not North]

yeah that's extremely unreasonable even by biglaw standards. I would see what you can do to not work with this person and/or tell them to fuck off

[lolwutpar]

Yep, from here on out any time they ask if you have time for a deal, you say no. When they send one off emails for a redline, say you're really busy and can get to it in x hours. Eventually they will stop coming to you.

[Definitely Not North]

hell I'd say this was ridiculously unreasonable if it was a story about a partner, not some shithead powertripping midlevel

[Joachim2017]

No. She wanted me to run some redlines and incorporate the comments from the other side. She never informed me it was urgent. She also just emailed me privately without ccing the partner, even though the partner asked her to do it.
And I feel very bad because she told me she felt disrespected, since I seem to respond to partners right away. I really don’t know what to do with this situation because I don’t think it’s right to un cc the partner.

You should not feel bad. What you did here was reasonable and she's the one acting (and responding) in an unreasonable way. As others have said, you should try to avoid having to work for her in the future, especially if, as it seems from the description, she might try to play some associate/partner (or even gender) "disrespect" card BS.

[Definitely Not North]

and here i thought i was tyrannical because i get pissed off if a junior doesn't title docs according to my naming conventions

[johndhi]

There are some people at law firms who transform their anxiety and insecurity into rage and blame at junior associates. It appears you've met one of them. Sorry about that. I had to deal with one for quite a while.

The reactions in the thread aren't especially helpful, in my mind, so I'll offer you this:

-Worth checking if there have been other people who left/complained about this person. Maybe try gossiping with the other juniors. I wouldn't recommend being complete shit, but I'd DEFINITELY recommend not becoming this person's "pet." The most evil folks I've worked with have favorite pet associates who do all the work with them; you can avoid that by continuing to be middle of the road, but by no means outstanding. But don't submit bad work product, no matter what.

-It's hard to remember, but please try, that you're valuable and a person and this other person is traumatized/hurt by something that happened to them. Not your business to figure that out and fix it, but perhaps the explanation helps. Most likely she won't make partner, FYI.

-Last, removing a partner from CC on an email does make sense in some circumstances. Those circumstances are when the emails you're exchanging are not necessary for the partner to hear/know about. If I were the partner, I'd prefer not seeing everything, but just the final drafts that are ready for my precious time.

[Usernameavailable]

If I were you, I'd take the advice given above and put any task this associate gives you pretty low on your priority list (i.e. "I'm working on something else, I'll turn to this when I can" type of thing). I would not do the opposite and go above and beyond for someone that unreasonable.

[cfcm]

So I definitely agree with the rest of the thread that this associate acted very unreasonably here, psychotically even.

I do want to say though that in my experience the below is perfectly normal and, in my mind, not really objectionable.

No. She wanted me to run some redlines and incorporate the comments from the other side. She never informed me it was urgent. She also just emailed me privately without ccing the partner, even though the partner asked her to do it.

[Anonymous User]

There are some people at law firms who transform their anxiety and insecurity into rage and blame at junior associates. It appears you've met one of them. Sorry about that. I had to deal with one for quite a while.

The reactions in the thread aren't especially helpful, in my mind, so I'll offer you this:

-Worth checking if there have been other people who left/complained about this person. Maybe try gossiping with the other juniors. I wouldn't recommend being complete shit, but I'd DEFINITELY recommend not becoming this person's "pet." The most evil folks I've worked with have favorite pet associates who do all the work with them; you can avoid that by continuing to be middle of the road, but by no means outstanding. But don't submit bad work product, no matter what.

-It's hard to remember, but please try, that you're valuable and a person and this other person is traumatized/hurt by something that happened to them. Not your business to figure that out and fix it, but perhaps the explanation helps. Most likely she won't make partner, FYI.

-Last, removing a partner from CC on an email does make sense in some circumstances. Those circumstances are when the emails you're exchanging are not necessary for the partner to hear/know about. If I were the partner, I'd prefer not seeing everything, but just the final drafts that are ready for my precious time.

Not to derail but is there really a difference between "not bad" and "outstanding" work product for juniors?

[Performance1]

First year associate who just started a few months ago in biglaw. After being slammed, I only got 2 hours of sleep and briefly took a nap in the morning. During that time, a mid-level sent an email asking to review a document. Was asleep and answered the email 20 minutes later. The mid-level got pretty upset and then she called me and said this is unacceptable and must respond the second I get her emails. Obviously, I will try, but I am not sure how realistic this is. And the mid-level proceeded to instruct me to un-cc the partner and then only cc the mid level and jump on the due diligence tasks. Should I un cc the partner and listen to the mid-level? It seems a little sketchy.

I wish someone would take all of these posts and write a book of biglaw misery/neuroticism/death by a thousand cuts. I'm serious it would sell. And no do not start a dick measuring contest with the senior. That's terrible advice unless you are way more politically powerful than you seem to be.

[dyemond]

There are some people at law firms who transform their anxiety and insecurity into rage and blame at junior associates. It appears you've met one of them. Sorry about that. I had to deal with one for quite a while.

The reactions in the thread aren't especially helpful, in my mind, so I'll offer you this:

-Worth checking if there have been other people who left/complained about this person. Maybe try gossiping with the other juniors. I wouldn't recommend being complete shit, but I'd DEFINITELY recommend not becoming this person's "pet." The most evil folks I've worked with have favorite pet associates who do all the work with them; you can avoid that by continuing to be middle of the road, but by no means outstanding. But don't submit bad work product, no matter what.

-It's hard to remember, but please try, that you're valuable and a person and this other person is traumatized/hurt by something that happened to them. Not your business to figure that out and fix it, but perhaps the explanation helps. Most likely she won't make partner, FYI.

-Last, removing a partner from CC on an email does make sense in some circumstances. Those circumstances are when the emails you're exchanging are not necessary for the partner to hear/know about. If I were the partner, I'd prefer not seeing everything, but just the final drafts that are ready for my precious time.

Not to derail but is there really a difference between "not bad" and "outstanding" work product for juniors?

Definitely. "Not bad" is they mostly got the goal of the assignment but, for example, they left in errant dates/dollar signs/names (without brackets, etc.). Outstanding is they produce a piece of work product with minimal comments.

I've got a 2nd year working for me who is mostly fine but still in the schedules/signature page stage of her career. I've got another 2nd year who produces genuinely solid work product on principal transaction documents. The former is "not bad", the latter is "outstanding".

[avenuem]

The one thing I think the midlevel is correct on is not needlessly cc'ing partners.

Try to only include partners on things that are important to them (work product they required, a client's inquiry, but not your discussion with an associate about work that isn't ready for partner's review).

[Anonymous User]

So I definitely agree with the rest of the thread that this associate acted very unreasonably here, psychotically even.

I do want to say though that in my experience the below is perfectly normal and, in my mind, not really objectionable.

No. She wanted me to run some redlines and incorporate the comments from the other side. She never informed me it was urgent. She also just emailed me privately without ccing the partner, even though the partner asked her to do it.

Wait -- so did this senior associate un-cc the partner, and OP added the partner back in? Still a wild over-reaction by this associate/they seem terrible, but adding a partner back into a thread they were removed from is kind of odd.

And it's normal for a more senior person to delegate a partner's assignment w/o the partner cc'ed (the way someone explained it to me is that the partner is assigning the associate the job of getting X done, not necessarily doing X, depending on context/relationship/seniority). That same principle applies when a more junior associate gets assigned paralegal type work, the assigning attorney doesn't necessarily think it's important that the associate DO the work, but just that they run with/own the work getting done. Like, I don't make my own TOA, but I shepard/QC the process.

[transferquestiontls]

I hope the mid-level is not looking at this thread.

[lolwutpar]

I hope the mid-level is not looking at this thread.

I hope they are so they can self-reflect that they are being an absolute dingus.

[4LTsPointingNorth]

So I definitely agree with the rest of the thread that this associate acted very unreasonably here, psychotically even.

I do want to say though that in my experience the below is perfectly normal and, in my mind, not really objectionable.

No. She wanted me to run some redlines and incorporate the comments from the other side. She never informed me it was urgent. She also just emailed me privately without ccing the partner, even though the partner asked her to do it.

Wait -- so did this senior associate un-cc the partner, and OP added the partner back in? Still a wild over-reaction by this associate/they seem terrible, but adding a partner back into a thread they were removed from is kind of odd.

And it's normal for a more senior person to delegate a partner's assignment w/o the partner cc'ed (the way someone explained it to me is that the partner is assigning the associate the job of getting X done, not necessarily doing X, depending on context/relationship/seniority). That same principle applies when a more junior associate gets assigned paralegal type work, the assigning attorney doesn't necessarily think it's important that the associate DO the work, but just that they run with/own the work getting done. Like, I don't make my own TOA, but I shepard/QC the process.

As described by OP, the midlevel does seem to be objectively unpleasant to work for. That being said, it would really annoy me if a junior associate kept cc'ing the partner on things that I didn't think the partner needed to be cc'd on (e.g., when delegating and giving instructions to a junior associate on how to complete a task).

The flip side of that is that I will review the work product and make sure it looks right, and then I would let the junior associate send it directly to the partner (or would credit the junior when sending to the partner if I sent myself).

Partners don't want to see how the sausage is made on most tasks that a junior associate would be involved with.

OP has raised legitimate grievances here, but if OP keeps is copying the partner into every little email exchange, especially when it's just an exchange involving a disagreement or misunderstanding between OP and the midlevel, then I could see why the midlevel feels like she is being undercut and disrespected. I have some sympathy for that.

[Anonymous User]

OP: to clarify, I never cc’d or corresponded with the partner. Was just making sure that I don’t have to cc him, since I’m still very new to this and don’t know biglaw protocols.
Thanks everyone. Will try to avoid this person.

[Dietcoke27]

This has happened to me, and it sucks. But you can't be awake 24 hours a day. Just be overly polite, especially in writing. The associate will forget about it eventually.

[Anonymous User]

I think the big takeaway is that you just need to have thick skin in biglaw because some people are a**holes, and these people never apologize and never have any repurcussions for their actions as long as they are getting things done (even if it is through fear and intimidation).

I've been yelled at for saying "yes I can turn to this in a couple of hours because I'm tied up on some other matters" for a very small task very early on in the deal (i.e., nowhere near signing or closing). I ended up billing just shy of 350 that month, so it's not like I was using my time to watch netflix or just goof off.

Point is, this person has never apologized and basically pretended it never happened, I just won't work for them anymore.

[Anonymous User]

I feel you bro. You know you don't have to work with this senior right? There are so many seniors in a biglaw. We have a choice who we are working with. Just finish this deal in a professional manner and never work for this guy again.