Income partner comp lower V100 Forum

[Anonymous User]

Do people know generally what comp is like for junior income partners at lower V100 firms? Is it senior assoc comp + a few extra sheckles? Or is there more of a discretionary bonus structure?

Anonymous b/c of post history.

[Anonymous User]

I used to be at a lower AmLaw firm (90-100). Junior partner salaries were in the low 300s for major markets. This was not at a market firm. Senior associates made around $250k.

[Lacepiece23]

Do people know generally what comp is like for junior income partners at lower V100 firms? Is it senior assoc comp + a few extra sheckles? Or is there more of a discretionary bonus structure?

Anonymous b/c of post history.

A lot of the times you end up making less than a senior until/if you develop business.

Around 300-350k sounds right. Usually a flat salary with an extra compensation structure that factors in business.

[LawrenceGazebo]

I used to be at a lower AmLaw firm (90-100). Junior partner salaries were in the low 300s for major markets. This was not at a market firm. Senior associates made around $250k.

Ouch...

[Anonymous User]

Not in the lower V100, but I think generally expect base to rise at about normal pay raises (about $20K jump per year). Bonuses can be more variable based on performance, book of business, and whether you have an actual path to equity

[Anonymous User]

I used to be at a lower AmLaw firm (90-100). Junior partner salaries were in the low 300s for major markets. This was not at a market firm. Senior associates made around $250k.

Ouch...

I actually don’t think it’s that bad. Many of the partners at the firm were V5 associates. Unfortunately most people don’t make partner at a V50, and many others can’t be paid an 8th year lockstep salary forever.

The partners generally seemed happy at the firm. I think many other firms not in the vault 50 or so pay their junior nonequity partner similar amounts.

[PrinterInk]

I used to be at a lower AmLaw firm (90-100). Junior partner salaries were in the low 300s for major markets. This was not at a market firm. Senior associates made around $250k.

Ouch...

I actually don’t think it’s that bad. Many of the partners at the firm were V5 associates. Unfortunately most people don’t make partner at a V50, and many others can’t be paid an 8th year lockstep salary forever.

The partners generally seemed happy at the firm. I think many other firms not in the vault 50 or so pay their junior nonequity partner similar amounts.

I don’t know whether fact that they were V5 associates makes this better or worse.

Imagine being 10 years into legal practice, having no life because you’re a biglawbot and making less than you did five years before.

[TigerIsBack]

I used to be at a lower AmLaw firm (90-100). Junior partner salaries were in the low 300s for major markets. This was not at a market firm. Senior associates made around $250k.

Ouch...

I actually don’t think it’s that bad. Many of the partners at the firm were V5 associates. Unfortunately most people don’t make partner at a V50, and many others can’t be paid an 8th year lockstep salary forever.

The partners generally seemed happy at the firm. I think many other firms not in the vault 50 or so pay their junior nonequity partner similar amounts.

I don’t know whether fact that they were V5 associates makes this better or worse.

Imagine being 10 years into legal practice, having no life because you’re a biglawbot and making less than you did five years before.

A 5th year salary is $280k....the partners here sound like they are making low $300k in salary, which is only a bit below what a senior associate makes. Those partners may still get big bonuses around $100k in busy years so this sounds like a pretty good deal considering it's barely any compensation cut, they likely would not have made partner at their more prestigious firms, and it sounds like there is an improved lifestyle.

[nealric]

I used to be at a lower AmLaw firm (90-100). Junior partner salaries were in the low 300s for major markets. This was not at a market firm. Senior associates made around $250k.

Ouch...

I actually don’t think it’s that bad. Many of the partners at the firm were V5 associates. Unfortunately most people don’t make partner at a V50, and many others can’t be paid an 8th year lockstep salary forever.

The partners generally seemed happy at the firm. I think many other firms not in the vault 50 or so pay their junior nonequity partner similar amounts.

I don’t know whether fact that they were V5 associates makes this better or worse.

Imagine being 10 years into legal practice, having no life because you’re a biglawbot and making less than you did five years before.

A V50-100 Jr. Partner will usually have a WAYYY better quality of life than a V5 associate (especially in a secondary market). You'll work a lot, but it's the difference between 55hrs a week and 75hrs a week. That is the difference between mostly working M-F with a few little things on the weekend and working 7 days a week. Totally different level of commitment.

[LawrenceGazebo]

I used to be at a lower AmLaw firm (90-100). Junior partner salaries were in the low 300s for major markets. This was not at a market firm. Senior associates made around $250k.

Ouch...

I actually don’t think it’s that bad. Many of the partners at the firm were V5 associates. Unfortunately most people don’t make partner at a V50, and many others can’t be paid an 8th year lockstep salary forever.

The partners generally seemed happy at the firm. I think many other firms not in the vault 50 or so pay their junior nonequity partner similar amounts.

I don’t know whether fact that they were V5 associates makes this better or worse.

Imagine being 10 years into legal practice, having no life because you’re a biglawbot and making less than you did five years before.

A V50-100 Jr. Partner will usually have a WAYYY better quality of life than a V5 associate (especially in a secondary market). You'll work a lot, but it's the difference between 55hrs a week and 75hrs a week. That is the difference between mostly working M-F with a few little things on the weekend and working 7 days a week. Totally different level of commitment.

Are v5 folks typically putting in 300 hours a month?

[nealric]

I used to be at a lower AmLaw firm (90-100). Junior partner salaries were in the low 300s for major markets. This was not at a market firm. Senior associates made around $250k.

Ouch...

I actually don’t think it’s that bad. Many of the partners at the firm were V5 associates. Unfortunately most people don’t make partner at a V50, and many others can’t be paid an 8th year lockstep salary forever.

The partners generally seemed happy at the firm. I think many other firms not in the vault 50 or so pay their junior nonequity partner similar amounts.

I don’t know whether fact that they were V5 associates makes this better or worse.

Imagine being 10 years into legal practice, having no life because you’re a biglawbot and making less than you did five years before.

A V50-100 Jr. Partner will usually have a WAYYY better quality of life than a V5 associate (especially in a secondary market). You'll work a lot, but it's the difference between 55hrs a week and 75hrs a week. That is the difference between mostly working M-F with a few little things on the weekend and working 7 days a week. Totally different level of commitment.

Are v5 folks typically putting in 300 hours a month?

I doubt many are putting in that many, but the prevalence of high 2,000s or 3,000+ annual hours is probably a lot more at firms like that. It's not just billables, but facetime expectations and non-billable work. My old v100 firm had a lot of v5 refugees who told all sorts of stories about the crazy hours culture at those firms- they definitely worked a lot less than they did at the v5. Plus, a partner (even a jr. non-equity partner) generally has a lot more ability to push back on work than an associate does. Perhaps a bit different at firms like Kirkland who call their senior associates partners.

[Anonymous User]

I used to be at a lower AmLaw firm (90-100). Junior partner salaries were in the low 300s for major markets. This was not at a market firm. Senior associates made around $250k.

Ouch...

I actually don’t think it’s that bad. Many of the partners at the firm were V5 associates. Unfortunately most people don’t make partner at a V50, and many others can’t be paid an 8th year lockstep salary forever.

The partners generally seemed happy at the firm. I think many other firms not in the vault 50 or so pay their junior nonequity partner similar amounts.

I don’t know whether fact that they were V5 associates makes this better or worse.

Imagine being 10 years into legal practice, having no life because you’re a biglawbot and making less than you did five years before.

A V50-100 Jr. Partner will usually have a WAYYY better quality of life than a V5 associate (especially in a secondary market). You'll work a lot, but it's the difference between 55hrs a week and 75hrs a week. That is the difference between mostly working M-F with a few little things on the weekend and working 7 days a week. Totally different level of commitment.

This is where vault is fairly useless. Lots of high PEP firms with lower vault ratings have similar (albeit likely marginally less) hours to V5.

[Sackboy]

Husch Blackwell falls in the "lower V100" type category, and on NALP they say their associates billed 1740 in 2018 and 1752 in 2019. Based on that alone, I can guess that being a non-equity partner at HB or a similar firm would be considerably better than being an associate at a typical V50, let alone V5/10.

[Anonymous User]

Husch Blackwell falls in the "lower V100" type category, and on NALP they say their associates billed 1740 in 2018 and 1752 in 2019. Based on that alone, I can guess that being a non-equity partner at HB or a similar firm would be considerably better than being an associate at a typical V50, let alone V5/10.

Wilmerhale (only other firm I saw that shows hours on NALP) has 1913/1792 average hours for 2018/2019. Average hours is a pretty terrible metric that is often significantly lower than reality for an average associate

[Iowahawk]

Husch Blackwell falls in the "lower V100" type category, and on NALP they say their associates billed 1740 in 2018 and 1752 in 2019. Based on that alone, I can guess that being a non-equity partner at HB or a similar firm would be considerably better than being an associate at a typical V50, let alone V5/10.

Husch Blackwell is almost entirely a secondary/tertiary market firm and its main competitors are other firms in the Great Plains, often not AmLaw let alone the V50, and as someone with some familiarity with those types of markets I'd be pretty shocked if they work anywhere near V10 hours. Plus much lower COL obviously so your dollar goes further.

[Iowahawk]

Continuing on it's right that there are minor-market V100, etc. firms that are probably better deals than V5 biglaw if you want to live in a minor market. Belin McCormick in Des Moines gives way-above-market salaries and early equity partnership to work 1850 to lure Iowans at HYSCCN, federal clerks, etc. home; lots of its people turned down Cravath, Kirkland, Munger, etc. That's only sustainable because it has unusually high billing rates but there are similar firms elsewhere.

[Sackboy]

Husch Blackwell is almost entirely a secondary/tertiary market firm and its main competitors are other firms in the Great Plains, often not AmLaw let alone the V50, and as someone with some familiarity with those types of markets I'd be pretty shocked if they work anywhere near V10 hours. Plus much lower COL obviously so your dollar goes further.

Not sure if quality of competitors should matter if anyone is looking for QoL + good $$$.

[Sackboy]

Continuing on it's right that there are minor-market V100, etc. firms that are probably better deals than V5 biglaw if you want to live in a minor market. Belin McCormick in Des Moines gives way-above-market salaries and early equity partnership to work 1850 to lure Iowans at HYSCCN, federal clerks, etc. home; lots of its people turned down Cravath, Kirkland, Munger, etc. That's only sustainable because it has unusually high billing rates but there are similar firms elsewhere.

Belin is a rare firm. Most states don't have a similar firm. From what I've heard, Belin's also completely eat-what-you-kill, which is a partnership arrangement I'm not sure I'd be a big fan of at such a small firm.

[Iowahawk]

Continuing on it's right that there are minor-market V100, etc. firms that are probably better deals than V5 biglaw if you want to live in a minor market. Belin McCormick in Des Moines gives way-above-market salaries and early equity partnership to work 1850 to lure Iowans at HYSCCN, federal clerks, etc. home; lots of its people turned down Cravath, Kirkland, Munger, etc. That's only sustainable because it has unusually high billing rates but there are similar firms elsewhere.

Belin is a rare firm. Most states don't have a similar firm. From what I've heard, Belin's also completely eat-what-you-kill, which is a partnership arrangement I'm not sure I'd be a big fan of at such a small firm.

Inside knowledge from a friend that's useless to 99.9% of people on here, but Belin is modified lockstep for junior partners and has an unusual version of EWYK for senior partners that ends up with a fairly low partner comp spread, unlike "classic" EWYK. Definitely small though for better (experience for associates) or worse (personality conflicts, risk from key partner departures, see Weinhardt).

Yes, "similar" wasn't a good word to use, Belin's very unusual, maybe even unique. Firms with much-better-than-V10 hours, good pay, and reasonably sophisticated work aren't that unusual though. There are three or so other firms just in Des Moines that take a reasonable number of biglaw laterals, have good hours, and start in six figures. Sweatshops in small-market disguise definitely exist (hello, Robins Kaplan) but they're not the norm.

[nealric]

I used to be at a lower AmLaw firm (90-100). Junior partner salaries were in the low 300s for major markets. This was not at a market firm. Senior associates made around $250k.

Ouch...

I actually don’t think it’s that bad. Many of the partners at the firm were V5 associates. Unfortunately most people don’t make partner at a V50, and many others can’t be paid an 8th year lockstep salary forever.

The partners generally seemed happy at the firm. I think many other firms not in the vault 50 or so pay their junior nonequity partner similar amounts.

I don’t know whether fact that they were V5 associates makes this better or worse.

Imagine being 10 years into legal practice, having no life because you’re a biglawbot and making less than you did five years before.

A V50-100 Jr. Partner will usually have a WAYYY better quality of life than a V5 associate (especially in a secondary market). You'll work a lot, but it's the difference between 55hrs a week and 75hrs a week. That is the difference between mostly working M-F with a few little things on the weekend and working 7 days a week. Totally different level of commitment.

This is where vault is fairly useless. Lots of high PEP firms with lower vault ratings have similar (albeit likely marginally less) hours to V5.

I'm using Vault as a general shorthand. I'm well aware there are some outlier high PEP firms that rank lower in Vault due to being lesser known boutique types. But I'm talking about your generic less elite full service biglaw firm, as I presume the OP is when asking about comp.

[Anonymous User]

I think it's uncommon for junior income partners outside the V20 (or V10?) to make much more than senior associates. At my lockstep V50 firm, an income partner makes $375k with no guaranteed bonus, but comparable to senior associates (i.e. $100k) for good hours. When I was at a lower V100 junior partners openly discussed how they were doing worse than senior associates.

[Anonymous User]

I think it's uncommon for junior income partners outside the V20 (or V10?) to make much more than senior associates. At my lockstep V50 firm, an income partner makes $375k with no guaranteed bonus, but comparable to senior associates (i.e. $100k) for good hours. When I was at a lower V100 junior partners openly discussed how they were doing worse than senior associates.

I agree with this assessment. At my former V50, non-equity partners made ~$500k all in. At my V10, junior non-equity partners can make ~$1M. I have no doubt that once you hit the firms that are in Vault but are really very regional firms that you start seeing $250-$300k all in numbers for non-equity partners.

[Anonymous User]

I think it's uncommon for junior income partners outside the V20 (or V10?) to make much more than senior associates. At my lockstep V50 firm, an income partner makes $375k with no guaranteed bonus, but comparable to senior associates (i.e. $100k) for good hours. When I was at a lower V100 junior partners openly discussed how they were doing worse than senior associates.

I agree with this assessment. At my former V50, non-equity partners made ~$500k all in. At my V10, junior non-equity partners can make ~$1M. I have no doubt that once you hit the firms that are in Vault but are really very regional firms that you start seeing $250-$300k all in numbers for non-equity partners.

Anyone have any insight on of counsel positions at Faegre in particular? I’m considering going there but they seem to make a lot more counsel than partners these days and I wonder if it’s just a glorified senior associate. I suspect so but confirmation would be great if anyone could give it. (Lit fwiw.)

[Anonymous User]

I think it's uncommon for junior income partners outside the V20 (or V10?) to make much more than senior associates. At my lockstep V50 firm, an income partner makes $375k with no guaranteed bonus, but comparable to senior associates (i.e. $100k) for good hours. When I was at a lower V100 junior partners openly discussed how they were doing worse than senior associates.

I agree with this assessment. At my former V50, non-equity partners made ~$500k all in. At my V10, junior non-equity partners can make ~$1M. I have no doubt that once you hit the firms that are in Vault but are really very regional firms that you start seeing $250-$300k all in numbers for non-equity partners.

Anyone have any insight on of counsel positions at Faegre in particular? I’m considering going there but they seem to make a lot more counsel than partners these days and I wonder if it’s just a glorified senior associate. I suspect so but confirmation would be great if anyone could give it. (Lit fwiw.)

At Faegre Drinker, the “Counsel” role is fairly individualized so can mean different things but is NOT a glorified senior associate position. In general, it is used for people who have some niche skills and enjoy the practice of law, but don’t want (or aren’t fit for) to take on the time commitment and extra stuff that comes with being partner. (“Partners” are owners of the firm and expected to be “all-in” — not just being great lawyers, but also building a practice bigger than themselves by generating work, managing client relationships, training and mentoring associates, building the firm’s external reputation, etc. That’s not a gig that everyone wants or is fit for. Some associates expressly opt to be “counsel-track” instead of “partner-track” so they can prioritize lawyering and balance. “Up or out” firms would say there’s no room for such folks, but the counsel position allows Faegre Drinker to right-size a position for them.) In addition, many counsel are people who may have worked in-house or in academia and are coming to bring their expertise to the firm as senior people. Faegre still makes plenty of partners.

[Anonymous User]

V75 firm. Income partners get paid based on the same point system that equity partners use. Difference being, they are capped until they make equity. Income partners range 420,000-750,000, though that changes (upward) every year.