R&W insurance broker vs underwriter Forum

[Anonymous User]

I'm a 5th/6th year NYC big law associate doing PE / M&A and exploring the jump to a RWI broker / underwriter position. Anyone here have any experience with it? Anyone make the move and regret it? The pay basically sounds the same as big law, but I'm afraid of leaving legal work so early for a relatively new industry.

Also, any pros and cons of being a rep and warranty broker vs underwriter? Any skills that will be better in either role? Total comp package? Ability to jump back into legal work if I don't like it after 1-2 years? Geographic flexibility for RWI?

Also are the hours truly no weekends and most nights off? I'm fine being responsive to emails into the evening, but strongly prefer to be able to go out for dinner and not have to turn asap documents.

[Sackboy]

Despite sitting on the phone with these folks, I never even thought about it as a job. I'd be curious to hear what it's like and what the compensation is like too.

[Anonymous User]

Oh man, where to start. Short answer is that I made the move to underwriting and deeply regret it.

The pay is not roughly equivalent to biglaw, at least not in my experience. I have heard that some shops pay a bit more, but I’d be floored if there’s a shop where anyone but management regularly breaks $300k all-in. Taking into account the biglaw COVID bonuses (which we obviously didn’t get), I’ll probably be bringing in somewhere between what a biglaw first- and second-year makes this year. For a 5/6-year biglaw associate, you’d probably be looking at a cut of at least $100k, more likely much closer to 50% of your current comp. Raises are more like standard COL adjustments, nothing anywhere near the raises you’re seeing now. Bonuses are variable and can suck, and they’re also nowhere near what you’re about to get this month. There’s no really clear path for advancement, either, so you’d just be looking at modest bonuses and effectively de minimis raises to your base for the foreseeable future. Good stuff. Broking can pay more, but the comp is at least partially variable depending on the number of policies you place and fees you bring in. You’d be putting in some hours to really bring in big money, and if that’s your goal, you should frankly just stay where you are.

The work itself is okay and definitely more manageable than biglaw in that there are just two documents you have to think about, the binder and the policy. I definitely don’t miss signing checklists and chasing clients to finish my 200-page sig packets. The drafting is kind of dumb and extremely repetitive in that you have the same fights with buyer’s counsel about policy stuff Over. And. Over. But it’s not hard, just soul-sucking in a “seriously, this shit again?” way.

The hours, though...the pay cut would be fine if the hours were like they were supposed to be, but that just isn’t the case. Again, it’s not quite as bad as biglaw, but it’s still M&A. This year has obviously been quite an anomaly with the spring slowdown followed by an absolutely insane second half, but very late night and weekend work isn’t uncommon at all. Even if you’re not actively working, you’re still checking email and could need to start actively working with zero notice. Like, say one of your clients decided unexpectedly that they wanted to move signing from next Wednesday to tonight and told you to get it done, and you couldn’t get ahold of the broker or the broker couldn’t get ahold of the underwriter to finalize the policy and bind coverage. See what I mean? That just wouldn’t fly, as a colleague of mine learned the hard way. Buyers and their counsel also tend to forget about RWI or otherwise leave it until the last minute, which makes the process unnecessarily stressful and time-pressured. You’ll definitely get quote submissions like “so after months of negotiation, our client is buying this business, signing in a week, and now wants to get RWI rolling” and deals where they’re signing in a matter of a few days and you’re just expected to make it happen. The hours can be okay, but it’s not as much of a given or as much of a managerial priority as you might think. It’s basically determined by overall market activity for the most part.

The one good thing is vacation is completely respected, which is especially nice if you’re using it as a shitty substitute for weekends like I’ve been. I don’t even turn my work phone on until the morning I’m back or mayyybe the night before just to thin the inbox out a bit and have a clue what I’ll be walking into the following day. Oh, and geographic flexibility is decent, too. Other than occasional broker events, all of which are of course virtual now, you never have in-person meetings or anything that would necessitate being in a particular city. I think some proximity to civilization and brokers will probably be needed for marketing and business development reasons post-COVID, but you probably wouldn’t be tied to NYC if you wanted to bounce.

Broking is even worse, as I understand. It honestly sounds like the most awful job to me, but being a middleman and spending my day forwarding information back and forth and scheduling calls isn’t my thing. They have to deal directly with clients or their counsel, so they get more direct heat if/when anything goes wrong, they have to manage any unreasonable client requests or demands, etc., all without (usually) making any substantive contribution to the process other than making veiled threats of withholding business to get underwriters to give on something. Brokers definitely have to be reachable 100% of the time given the more immediate client contact, though there is the potential $ upside if you just don’t care about having a life and are all about the hustle. Still, as far as I know, the very best-paid brokers in the space only bring in a little over a mil, maybe mil and a half. And that’s a very small group who have basically been in the space for the whole time the product has existed in the US.

So yeah, I regret not sticking it out in biglaw and cashing the checks while I figured out my next move. This job isn’t as bad as biglaw in most ways (though the sheer number of outstanding quotes you’ve sent that could plausibly turn into deals at the drop of a hat is arguably even worse in terms of knowing what your workload will look like), but there’s definitely a steeper pay cut than there is a reduction in hours. Exit options are...well, we’ll see about that, but it isn’t proving a boon so far for going in house in that it’s not really the kind of legal experience they’re looking for when they say they want # years of experience. I could see it being a great thing for going back to biglaw M&A or to another RWI shop or brokerage, but other than that and maybe the relatively few in-house M&A positions out there, there’s not much of a clear path.

That’s been my experience, at least. Maybe I just wound up at the wrong shop and everyone else is living the dream, though I highly doubt it. I don’t think anything M&A will ever have the kind of reliably decent work-life balance RWI is often sold as having.

[Anonymous User]

Oh man, where to start. Short answer is that I made the move to underwriting and deeply regret it.

The pay is not roughly equivalent to biglaw, at least not in my experience. I have heard that some shops pay a bit more, but I’d be floored if there’s a shop where anyone but management regularly breaks $300k all-in. Taking into account the biglaw COVID bonuses (which we obviously didn’t get), I’ll probably be bringing in somewhere between what a biglaw first- and second-year makes this year. For a 5/6-year biglaw associate, you’d probably be looking at a cut of at least $100k, more likely much closer to 50% of your current comp. Raises are more like standard COL adjustments, nothing anywhere near the raises you’re seeing now. Bonuses are variable and can suck, and they’re also nowhere near what you’re about to get this month. There’s no really clear path for advancement, either, so you’d just be looking at modest bonuses and effectively de minimis raises to your base for the foreseeable future. Good stuff. Broking can pay more, but the comp is at least partially variable depending on the number of policies you place and fees you bring in. You’d be putting in some hours to really bring in big money, and if that’s your goal, you should frankly just stay where you are.

The work itself is okay and definitely more manageable than biglaw in that there are just two documents you have to think about, the binder and the policy. I definitely don’t miss signing checklists and chasing clients to finish my 200-page sig packets. The drafting is kind of dumb and extremely repetitive in that you have the same fights with buyer’s counsel about policy stuff Over. And. Over. But it’s not hard, just soul-sucking in a “seriously, this shit again?” way.

The hours, though...the pay cut would be fine if the hours were like they were supposed to be, but that just isn’t the case. Again, it’s not quite as bad as biglaw, but it’s still M&A. This year has obviously been quite an anomaly with the spring slowdown followed by an absolutely insane second half, but very late night and weekend work isn’t uncommon at all. Even if you’re not actively working, you’re still checking email and could need to start actively working with zero notice. Like, say one of your clients decided unexpectedly that they wanted to move signing from next Wednesday to tonight and told you to get it done, and you couldn’t get ahold of the broker or the broker couldn’t get ahold of the underwriter to finalize the policy and bind coverage. See what I mean? That just wouldn’t fly, as a colleague of mine learned the hard way. Buyers and their counsel also tend to forget about RWI or otherwise leave it until the last minute, which makes the process unnecessarily stressful and time-pressured. You’ll definitely get quote submissions like “so after months of negotiation, our client is buying this business, signing in a week, and now wants to get RWI rolling” and deals where they’re signing in a matter of a few days and you’re just expected to make it happen. The hours can be okay, but it’s not as much of a given or as much of a managerial priority as you might think. It’s basically determined by overall market activity for the most part.

The one good thing is vacation is completely respected, which is especially nice if you’re using it as a shitty substitute for weekends like I’ve been. I don’t even turn my work phone on until the morning I’m back or mayyybe the night before just to thin the inbox out a bit and have a clue what I’ll be walking into the following day. Oh, and geographic flexibility is decent, too. Other than occasional broker events, all of which are of course virtual now, you never have in-person meetings or anything that would necessitate being in a particular city. I think some proximity to civilization and brokers will probably be needed for marketing and business development reasons post-COVID, but you probably wouldn’t be tied to NYC if you wanted to bounce.

Broking is even worse, as I understand. It honestly sounds like the most awful job to me, but being a middleman and spending my day forwarding information back and forth and scheduling calls isn’t my thing. They have to deal directly with clients or their counsel, so they get more direct heat if/when anything goes wrong, they have to manage any unreasonable client requests or demands, etc., all without (usually) making any substantive contribution to the process other than making veiled threats of withholding business to get underwriters to give on something. Brokers definitely have to be reachable 100% of the time given the more immediate client contact, though there is the potential $ upside if you just don’t care about having a life and are all about the hustle. Still, as far as I know, the very best-paid brokers in the space only bring in a little over a mil, maybe mil and a half. And that’s a very small group who have basically been in the space for the whole time the product has existed in the US.

So yeah, I regret not sticking it out in biglaw and cashing the checks while I figured out my next move. This job isn’t as bad as biglaw in most ways (though the sheer number of outstanding quotes you’ve sent that could plausibly turn into deals at the drop of a hat is arguably even worse in terms of knowing what your workload will look like), but there’s definitely a steeper pay cut than there is a reduction in hours. Exit options are...well, we’ll see about that, but it isn’t proving a boon so far for going in house in that it’s not really the kind of legal experience they’re looking for when they say they want # years of experience. I could see it being a great thing for going back to biglaw M&A or to another RWI shop or brokerage, but other than that and maybe the relatively few in-house M&A positions out there, there’s not much of a clear path.

That’s been my experience, at least. Maybe I just wound up at the wrong shop and everyone else is living the dream, though I highly doubt it. I don’t think anything M&A will ever have the kind of reliably decent work-life balance RWI is often sold as having.

I think pay must vary by underwriting shop because I made the move to underwriter last year and the comp has been higher than the market midlevel big law pay I would have gotten (salary + bonus). I agree the hours can be somewhat similar with frequent late nights and some weekend work (it's not a 9-5), but I've never had to work an all-nighter, and my weekends in particular are usually more open. I've only lost 1 full weekend day to working, and that was an exception. Like the prior anon mentions, vacations are really respected, which is hard to understate. The other big thing for me is that there are so many less layers of review. By that, I mean I don't have to wait for a first year to put together some lousy work product, then send back comments that may or may not get incorporated correctly, then fix it, then send to a partner for review, who will always have additional comments, then rinse & repeat. There's no waiting around wondering when you're going to get those comments and less abrasive personalities to deal with internally. Overall, my quality of life has greatly improved.

As far as the work itself, I like it. I enjoyed due diligence when in big law, but really just the initial part of learning about a new company in a deal. I didn't enjoy reviewing the hundreds of different customer agreements for change in control clauses. As an underwriter, you constantly learn about new industries, and you don't need to do the tedious contract review. When I get a data room notification on a Friday afternoon with a big document dump, I always feel a bit of relief that it's not my weekend that is getting ruined. I also don't miss the endless checklist calls and issues lists. The retention/deductibles in the policy let us focus on more material items so we don't get bogged down tying out every little issue, and I enjoy getting to use my judgment about what those material issues are. You also learn a lot about different specialist areas like employment, IP, environmental, etc., and I had to learn some accounting. You do still have to argue and negotiate with lawyers, and that's probably the worst part of the job for me.

Advancement is unclear, but it's a growing industry. I also think the experience has been incredible if I wanted to make the jump back to big law, but I don't plan on doing that.

TLDR: it seems like comp can vary widely by underwriting shop. I find the hours to be better than big law, especially weekends and vacations, but it's by no means a 9-5 and can have frequent late nights. I enjoy the work, but it is niche and geared towards lawyers that like the business-side of M&A/due diligence more than the papering part of it.

Anon because very small industry.

[Anonymous User]

I think pay must vary by underwriting shop because I made the move to underwriter last year and the comp has been higher than the market midlevel big law pay I would have gotten (salary + bonus). I agree the hours can be somewhat similar with frequent late nights and some weekend work (it's not a 9-5), but I've never had to work an all-nighter, and my weekends in particular are usually more open. I've only lost 1 full weekend day to working, and that was an exception. Like the prior anon mentions, vacations are really respected, which is hard to understate. The other big thing for me is that there are so many less layers of review. By that, I mean I don't have to wait for a first year to put together some lousy work product, then send back comments that may or may not get incorporated correctly, then fix it, then send to a partner for review, who will always have additional comments, then rinse & repeat. There's no waiting around wondering when you're going to get those comments and less abrasive personalities to deal with internally. Overall, my quality of life has greatly improved.

As far as the work itself, I like it. I enjoyed due diligence when in big law, but really just the initial part of learning about a new company in a deal. I didn't enjoy reviewing the hundreds of different customer agreements for change in control clauses. As an underwriter, you constantly learn about new industries, and you don't need to do the tedious contract review. When I get a data room notification on a Friday afternoon with a big document dump, I always feel a bit of relief that it's not my weekend that is getting ruined. I also don't miss the endless checklist calls and issues lists. The retention/deductibles in the policy let us focus on more material items so we don't get bogged down tying out every little issue, and I enjoy getting to use my judgment about what those material issues are. You also learn a lot about different specialist areas like employment, IP, environmental, etc., and I had to learn some accounting. You do still have to argue and negotiate with lawyers, and that's probably the worst part of the job for me.

Advancement is unclear, but it's a growing industry. I also think the experience has been incredible if I wanted to make the jump back to big law, but I don't plan on doing that.

TLDR: it seems like comp can vary widely by underwriting shop. I find the hours to be better than big law, especially weekends and vacations, but it's by no means a 9-5 and can have frequent late nights. I enjoy the work, but it is niche and geared towards lawyers that like the business-side of M&A/due diligence more than the papering part of it.

Anon because very small industry.

Welp, I said I’d be floored, and floored I am. Seems we’re underpaid by about half and significantly overworked, which is great to know. You guys hiring? What you describe is what was described to us when we were hired here except, ya know, actually the case.

[Anonymous User]

Potentially stupid question, but how do you find these jobs? I have 3 years midlaw M&A experience and 1 year in house at a real estate fund sponsor and would be interested in exploring this industry, having experience working with RWI. I'm in a tertiary market, which I'm sure limits opportunities, unless remote work is available.

Anyway, I'm having trouble finding postings at all -- E.g., on LinkedIn, searches for "M&A insurance" "M&A underwriting" "transactional risk" don't seem to lead anywhere.

[Anonymous User]

Potentially stupid question, but how do you find these jobs? I have 3 years midlaw M&A experience and 1 year in house at a real estate fund sponsor and would be interested in exploring this industry, having experience working with RWI. I'm in a tertiary market, which I'm sure limits opportunities, unless remote work is available.

Anyway, I'm having trouble finding postings at all -- E.g., on LinkedIn, searches for "M&A insurance" "M&A underwriting" "transactional risk" don't seem to lead anywhere.

[Anonymous User]

Potentially stupid question, but how do you find these jobs? I have 3 years midlaw M&A experience and 1 year in house at a real estate fund sponsor and would be interested in exploring this industry, having experience working with RWI. I'm in a tertiary market, which I'm sure limits opportunities, unless remote work is available.

Anyway, I'm having trouble finding postings at all -- E.g., on LinkedIn, searches for "M&A insurance" "M&A underwriting" "transactional risk" don't seem to lead anywhere.

Those are the right search terms. I haven’t seen any postings very recently, but they’ll usually have some variation of “M&A underwriter” or “transactional insurance” in the title. I found it helpful to have search alerts for the specific shops by name, particularly the MGAs, so you get an alert any time Euclid or whatever is hiring instead of trying to keep track of the role nomenclature. Jobs don’t tend to get posted overly frequently as it’s a really small space, and I think a fair number of hires are made laterally before a job gets to the public posting stage. I’d definitely keep an eye on things just after bonus season, though, just sayin’...

[thelawyler]

I think pay must vary by underwriting shop because I made the move to underwriter last year and the comp has been higher than the market midlevel big law pay I would have gotten (salary + bonus). I agree the hours can be somewhat similar with frequent late nights and some weekend work (it's not a 9-5), but I've never had to work an all-nighter, and my weekends in particular are usually more open. I've only lost 1 full weekend day to working, and that was an exception. Like the prior anon mentions, vacations are really respected, which is hard to understate. The other big thing for me is that there are so many less layers of review. By that, I mean I don't have to wait for a first year to put together some lousy work product, then send back comments that may or may not get incorporated correctly, then fix it, then send to a partner for review, who will always have additional comments, then rinse & repeat. There's no waiting around wondering when you're going to get those comments and less abrasive personalities to deal with internally. Overall, my quality of life has greatly improved.

As far as the work itself, I like it. I enjoyed due diligence when in big law, but really just the initial part of learning about a new company in a deal. I didn't enjoy reviewing the hundreds of different customer agreements for change in control clauses. As an underwriter, you constantly learn about new industries, and you don't need to do the tedious contract review. When I get a data room notification on a Friday afternoon with a big document dump, I always feel a bit of relief that it's not my weekend that is getting ruined. I also don't miss the endless checklist calls and issues lists. The retention/deductibles in the policy let us focus on more material items so we don't get bogged down tying out every little issue, and I enjoy getting to use my judgment about what those material issues are. You also learn a lot about different specialist areas like employment, IP, environmental, etc., and I had to learn some accounting. You do still have to argue and negotiate with lawyers, and that's probably the worst part of the job for me.

Advancement is unclear, but it's a growing industry. I also think the experience has been incredible if I wanted to make the jump back to big law, but I don't plan on doing that.

TLDR: it seems like comp can vary widely by underwriting shop. I find the hours to be better than big law, especially weekends and vacations, but it's by no means a 9-5 and can have frequent late nights. I enjoy the work, but it is niche and geared towards lawyers that like the business-side of M&A/due diligence more than the papering part of it.

Anon because very small industry.

Welp, I said I’d be floored, and floored I am. Seems we’re underpaid by about half and significantly overworked, which is great to know. You guys hiring? What you describe is what was described to us when we were hired here except, ya know, actually the case.

Great thread with information that is hard to find. Thanks both. Very curious as well and I have a few questions for you guys.

When you guys compare to "big law", did you guys come from the well known sweat shops in NYC? 2200+ hours? If so, what does your life feel like in terms of hours? 1800? Just trying to gauge.

What does a manager position get paid? I'm also doing a lateral search right now as a mid level and there is a lot of information about early and late career salaries but very little of what my compensation might look like in my 40s.

Also, what are the "top shops" to look into in terms of culture and compensation? Any ones to look out for? I understand its a small world so I guess you guys might hear some things from lateral hires.

[thelawyler]

Oh man, where to start. Short answer is that I made the move to underwriting and deeply regret it.

The pay is not roughly equivalent to biglaw, at least not in my experience. I have heard that some shops pay a bit more, but I’d be floored if there’s a shop where anyone but management regularly breaks $300k all-in. Taking into account the biglaw COVID bonuses (which we obviously didn’t get), I’ll probably be bringing in somewhere between what a biglaw first- and second-year makes this year. For a 5/6-year biglaw associate, you’d probably be looking at a cut of at least $100k, more likely much closer to 50% of your current comp. Raises are more like standard COL adjustments, nothing anywhere near the raises you’re seeing now. Bonuses are variable and can suck, and they’re also nowhere near what you’re about to get this month. There’s no really clear path for advancement, either, so you’d just be looking at modest bonuses and effectively de minimis raises to your base for the foreseeable future. Good stuff. Broking can pay more, but the comp is at least partially variable depending on the number of policies you place and fees you bring in. You’d be putting in some hours to really bring in big money, and if that’s your goal, you should frankly just stay where you are.

The work itself is okay and definitely more manageable than biglaw in that there are just two documents you have to think about, the binder and the policy. I definitely don’t miss signing checklists and chasing clients to finish my 200-page sig packets. The drafting is kind of dumb and extremely repetitive in that you have the same fights with buyer’s counsel about policy stuff Over. And. Over. But it’s not hard, just soul-sucking in a “seriously, this shit again?” way.

The hours, though...the pay cut would be fine if the hours were like they were supposed to be, but that just isn’t the case. Again, it’s not quite as bad as biglaw, but it’s still M&A. This year has obviously been quite an anomaly with the spring slowdown followed by an absolutely insane second half, but very late night and weekend work isn’t uncommon at all. Even if you’re not actively working, you’re still checking email and could need to start actively working with zero notice. Like, say one of your clients decided unexpectedly that they wanted to move signing from next Wednesday to tonight and told you to get it done, and you couldn’t get ahold of the broker or the broker couldn’t get ahold of the underwriter to finalize the policy and bind coverage. See what I mean? That just wouldn’t fly, as a colleague of mine learned the hard way. Buyers and their counsel also tend to forget about RWI or otherwise leave it until the last minute, which makes the process unnecessarily stressful and time-pressured. You’ll definitely get quote submissions like “so after months of negotiation, our client is buying this business, signing in a week, and now wants to get RWI rolling” and deals where they’re signing in a matter of a few days and you’re just expected to make it happen. The hours can be okay, but it’s not as much of a given or as much of a managerial priority as you might think. It’s basically determined by overall market activity for the most part.

The one good thing is vacation is completely respected, which is especially nice if you’re using it as a shitty substitute for weekends like I’ve been. I don’t even turn my work phone on until the morning I’m back or mayyybe the night before just to thin the inbox out a bit and have a clue what I’ll be walking into the following day. Oh, and geographic flexibility is decent, too. Other than occasional broker events, all of which are of course virtual now, you never have in-person meetings or anything that would necessitate being in a particular city. I think some proximity to civilization and brokers will probably be needed for marketing and business development reasons post-COVID, but you probably wouldn’t be tied to NYC if you wanted to bounce.

Broking is even worse, as I understand. It honestly sounds like the most awful job to me, but being a middleman and spending my day forwarding information back and forth and scheduling calls isn’t my thing. They have to deal directly with clients or their counsel, so they get more direct heat if/when anything goes wrong, they have to manage any unreasonable client requests or demands, etc., all without (usually) making any substantive contribution to the process other than making veiled threats of withholding business to get underwriters to give on something. Brokers definitely have to be reachable 100% of the time given the more immediate client contact, though there is the potential $ upside if you just don’t care about having a life and are all about the hustle. Still, as far as I know, the very best-paid brokers in the space only bring in a little over a mil, maybe mil and a half. And that’s a very small group who have basically been in the space for the whole time the product has existed in the US.

So yeah, I regret not sticking it out in biglaw and cashing the checks while I figured out my next move. This job isn’t as bad as biglaw in most ways (though the sheer number of outstanding quotes you’ve sent that could plausibly turn into deals at the drop of a hat is arguably even worse in terms of knowing what your workload will look like), but there’s definitely a steeper pay cut than there is a reduction in hours. Exit options are...well, we’ll see about that, but it isn’t proving a boon so far for going in house in that it’s not really the kind of legal experience they’re looking for when they say they want # years of experience. I could see it being a great thing for going back to biglaw M&A or to another RWI shop or brokerage, but other than that and maybe the relatively few in-house M&A positions out there, there’s not much of a clear path.

That’s been my experience, at least. Maybe I just wound up at the wrong shop and everyone else is living the dream, though I highly doubt it. I don’t think anything M&A will ever have the kind of reliably decent work-life balance RWI is often sold as having.

What year did you end up making the jump? Wondering if the 3rd vs 6th year matters here as "mid level" can vary a lot in salary now at big law.

[Anonymous User]

I am considering a role on the broking side, so would love to hear more about this (comp, hours/lifestyle, work) if at all possible! Thanks!

[Anonymous User]

Any brokers who could weigh in? I am currently sitting on an offer and am very curious, especially with regards to hours compared to biglaw. Thanks!

[Anonymous User]

Bumping this thread to see if anyone can share more about the broker side of the equation. Thinking of applying for a position (mostly due to just hating being an M&A midlevel rather than knowing anything about what the brokers do), but I really have no idea what they do.

Can anyone share more about the day to day of being an R&W insurance broker and what that looks like? Do the brokers do anything substantive or is it just more acting as a go between for the client and underwriter? To the extent there is substantive work is it mainly due diligence? If I hate it, what kind of exits are there?

Thanks!