University at Buffalo's JD a good starting point for a foreigner? Forum

[Ibasitt]

I'm a foreign lawyer. I got into UB's accelerated JD program. It would cost me around 30k for two years. I wanted to ask if it is a good starting point for somebody looking to work and stay in the New York/US? What are career prospects for someone graduating from UB who would need a work visa? Any help in this regard would appreciated.

[Anonymous User]

Are you saying that you are already licensed as a lawyer in another nation? Have you looked into if said nation can sidestep the school? I believe that (at least for some in house jobs) that some nations lawyers can.

[Ibasitt]

Yes I'm a licensed lawyer in my home country. I want to become an American lawyer and I think a US law degree is a must.

[Anonymous User]

Yes I'm a licensed lawyer in my home country. I want to become an American lawyer and I think a US law degree is a must.

Depends on factors . What nation? What exact type of degree (llm I presume?), How long practicing back home? Is English your native language ? (It seems like yes, but don't want to presume). I ask the language part since an accelerated course may not be wise if a second language. You might be able to just take an LLM, or a semester of credits, or maybe just take the exam. If looking at in house counsel , or foreign language fix review (pays good and always hiring ) you might have the option of skipping more school too. What state do you plan to practice in? You ask the state bar what their rules on your exact situation are?

[Anonymous User]

Here are a few examples, https://www.michbar.org/professional/woexam , https://www.nybarexam.org/Foreign/Forei ... cation.htm , https://wcl.american.libguides.com/bare ... 20of%20age. , If you do fall into needing an LLM or credits range and like Buffalo then I would highly recommend that instead of an accelerated JD you look into this instead: http://www.buffalo.edu/academics/degree ... etail.html

[Ibasitt]

Yes I'm a licensed lawyer in my home country. I want to become an American lawyer and I think a US law degree is a must.

Depends on factors . What nation? What exact type of degree (llm I presume?), How long practicing back home? Is English your native language ? (It seems like yes, but don't want to presume). I ask the language part since an accelerated course may not be wise if a second language. You might be able to just take an LLM, or a semester of credits, or maybe just take the exam. If looking at in house counsel , or foreign language fix review (pays good and always hiring ) you might have the option of skipping more school too. What state do you plan to practice in? You ask the state bar what their rules on your exact situation are?

I've been practicing law for past one year in Pakistan. Graduated with LLB hons. English isn't the native language of course but I believe I'm good at it. One thing I must mention is that the program is accelerated in that it would transfer one year worth of credits from my previous degree so the annual course work wouldn't be more than what would have been in a 3 years degree. I think all states in US require either a JD or an LLM to sit for the bar exam (?) The part about documents review as the last resort is interesting. Any idea if such employers also sponsor work visas for their employees since I would be needing one to stay and work there. Thanks

[Ibasitt]

Here are a few examples, https://www.michbar.org/professional/woexam , https://www.nybarexam.org/Foreign/Forei ... cation.htm , https://wcl.american.libguides.com/bare ... 20of%20age. , If you do fall into needing an LLM or credits range and like Buffalo then I would highly recommend that instead of an accelerated JD you look into this instead: http://www.buffalo.edu/academics/degree ... etail.html

Interesting!

[Anonymous User]

Not sure about the work visas but if you talk to a legal recruiter (such as "Robert Half legal" they may be able to help with placing at a firm that does .

[nealric]

I hate to rain on your parade, but going to any U.S. school below the very top ones makes it very unlikely you will find an employer who would sponsor you for a visa in the U.S.

Typically, only the very largest law firms are willing to sponsor visas, and the largest law firms are only looking at students from the top 10-20 schools in the country. The University of Buffalo is a long way from that. Frankly, going to any school ranked below Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Columbia, U. Chicago, and maybe NYU is a huge gamble for someone in your position.

If you just want a NY bar card, you could do a 1 year LLM and take the bar. But I'd only do that if you have an alternative means for visa sponsorship (i.e. U.S.-based family who could sponsor you).

[Ibasitt]

Not sure about the work visas but if you talk to a legal recruiter (such as "Robert Half legal" they may be able to help with placing at a firm that does .

Thanks. One more thing: I have an offer from Iowa law too. The degree would cost me double but I think they're ranked among top 30. Would going to a T30 school significantly improve my chances of landing a job upon graduation?

[Iowahawk]

Not sure about the work visas but if you talk to a legal recruiter (such as "Robert Half legal" they may be able to help with placing at a firm that does .

Thanks. One more thing: I have an offer from Iowa law too. The degree would cost me double but I think they're ranked among top 30. Would going to a T30 school significantly improve my chances of landing a job upon graduation?

By "cost double" do you mean it would cost you $60k? $60k for a degree from Iowa is a very good deal if you can figure out the visa stuff. Certainly much better than $30k for a degree from Buffalo. Iowa has a Law School Transparency employment score of 90% compared to 60% from Buffalo.

Because Iowa doesn't send many students to New York, though, I'd only go there if you are comfortable working in the Midwest long-term. The big markets for Iowa grads are Des Moines, Chicago, and Minneapolis. (For what it's worth I grew up in Iowa and have spent time at U Iowa and it's a really lovely place to live, but very different from NYC).

[nealric]

Not sure about the work visas but if you talk to a legal recruiter (such as "Robert Half legal" they may be able to help with placing at a firm that does .

Thanks. One more thing: I have an offer from Iowa law too. The degree would cost me double but I think they're ranked among top 30. Would going to a T30 school significantly improve my chances of landing a job upon graduation?

Unfortunately, no. Iowa is a good school, but it's not a target school for the large organizations that would be willing to sponsor you for a visa. Only the top 10% of students at Iowa are likely to get jobs at the large firms in Chicago, etc. that are big enough to be visa sponsors. Doesn't seem worth it for a 10% chance of reaching your goals. You need to be looking in the top 14 schools, at a minimum, and really top 6 to be reasonably safe.

[hulunetflix]

Hi, I am currently on the H1b. I did my JD at a non-T14 school and ended up working at a firm. I am offering (some) unsolicited advice because if being a lawyer in the U.S. is truly what you want, I want to help with everything I have. This path is a lot of work for foreigners, but it's truly worth every effort I've made.

I agree with the above, that U Buffalo is not an attractive choice. Iowa might be better, and I can see how it could work for some people, but I personally wouldn't go for reasons I explain below. I agree that the surest path for a work visa (H1b) is to find a job with a big law firm (or a big company, although they rarely hire new grads), and agree that you need grades for that. However, there are, maybe not many, but some, opportunities outside of that scope.

My school is located in a major market (DC/CHI/LA/SF). Our OCI program was decent. That said, if you were not IP, which requires a science undergrad degree, even at my school, you really weren't safe with getting a firm job if not in the top 10%. Most of the int'l students were not in that range, but approximately half of my class year managed to stay in the U.S. and got the visa part worked out. The key is that they REALLY hustled to network with everyone. Government, int'l orgs, professors, biglaw, mildew, small law, everything you can think of. Even though someone could not hire foreign workers, they still talked to them, and eventually, one thing leads to another and then they found something. In order to achieve that, you would need to physically be in market, be ready to meet whenever the other person wants to, follow up after you meet, and go to events. I know your cost would soar due to the COL, but it's a worthy investment. FWIW, I had to share rooms/apartments for part of undergrad and law school to get by, and some days I skipped meals, but I would totally do it again so I could be in the location and be best prepared. I networked, and I actually made friends through the process.

Another factor is the location. Bias is real. People will judge you if you appear different. (I've experienced it first hand.) That said, the five largest legal markets are generally foreign students friendly, in a sense that people will still get to know you and listen to you about the visa stuff. They may say no visa sponsorship, but that's more likely a business decision. I can't guarantee that in smaller markets.

If you are following the traditional big law firm path, language likely will be a challenge. I did undergrad in the States. English is not my first language, but because I've addressed the language barrier during my undergrad, I had no issues with following lectures, participating in class, taking a time crunched exam, etc. I know some of my LLM friends struggled with the language part. They definitely are brilliant, especially that they have years of practicing experience. But, if they couldn't follow the lecture well or couldn't finish the exam because of the language barrier, their GPA wouldn't be high. Several friends who came to the U.S. straight for law school have told me that the language skills needed were much more than they originally thought. Still, I know people who pulled it off and got firm offers. Since your English is good, you can try with an accelerated program, and if you find the language part too difficult, you can always ask to switch to the three-year program. My friend from school (also int'l) has done that, and s/he now is an associate at a big law firm in my school's market.

A lot of the above also depends your personal background. If you are from a pretty well-off family in your home country and you've had a lot of contact with the society in Europe and Northern America, things will be much more manageable. On the other hand, if your background is just another person with limited financial resources (like me, and many immigrants here), coming to the U.S. for the first time is like being an animal being displayed in the zoo for the first time. If that's you, besides trying your best and hanging in there until you make it, there isn't really a good way to overcome it.

On the last note, some of my classmates married U.S. citizens. That's definitely the easiest way to solve immigration issue in the U.S. Job hunting will be dramatically easier. I think relationships are more difficult than school, but hey, that's just me.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions!

[Ibasitt]

Not sure about the work visas but if you talk to a legal recruiter (such as "Robert Half legal" they may be able to help with placing at a firm that does .

Thanks. One more thing: I have an offer from Iowa law too. The degree would cost me double but I think they're ranked among top 30. Would going to a T30 school significantly improve my chances of landing a job upon graduation?

Unfortunately, no. Iowa is a good school, but it's not a target school for the large organizations that would be willing to sponsor you for a visa. Only the top 10% of students at Iowa are likely to get jobs at the large firms in Chicago, etc. that are big enough to be visa sponsors. Doesn't seem worth it for a 10% chance of reaching your goals. You need to be looking in the top 14 schools, at a minimum, and really top 6 to be reasonably safe.

Are you suggesting that there won't be one employer in whole Iowa state eligible to sponsor a work visa? I understand this forum's romance of T14 schools but there should more to the actual ground situation

[Ibasitt]

Not sure about the work visas but if you talk to a legal recruiter (such as "Robert Half legal" they may be able to help with placing at a firm that does .

Thanks. One more thing: I have an offer from Iowa law too. The degree would cost me double but I think they're ranked among top 30. Would going to a T30 school significantly improve my chances of landing a job upon graduation?

By "cost double" do you mean it would cost you $60k? $60k for a degree from Iowa is a very good deal if you can figure out the visa stuff. Certainly much better than $30k for a degree from Buffalo. Iowa has a Law School Transparency employment score of 90% compared to 60% from Buffalo.

Because Iowa doesn't send many students to New York, though, I'd only go there if you are comfortable working in the Midwest long-term. The big markets for Iowa grads are Des Moines, Chicago, and Minneapolis. (For what it's worth I grew up in Iowa and have spent time at U Iowa and it's a really lovely place to live, but very different from NYC).

Glad to hear you're from Iowa and have studied at the University. Yes, the degree would cost a little more than 60k. The goal isn't really to work in the NYC but to be able to get a few years of work experience before returning home. Ideally I would be looking at a litigation law firm that has a lot going on and offers learning opportunity. That's it. My family would be paying for the degree so it would be only fair to return them the tuition money in a few years.

[Iowahawk]

Not sure about the work visas but if you talk to a legal recruiter (such as "Robert Half legal" they may be able to help with placing at a firm that does .

Thanks. One more thing: I have an offer from Iowa law too. The degree would cost me double but I think they're ranked among top 30. Would going to a T30 school significantly improve my chances of landing a job upon graduation?

Unfortunately, no. Iowa is a good school, but it's not a target school for the large organizations that would be willing to sponsor you for a visa. Only the top 10% of students at Iowa are likely to get jobs at the large firms in Chicago, etc. that are big enough to be visa sponsors. Doesn't seem worth it for a 10% chance of reaching your goals. You need to be looking in the top 14 schools, at a minimum, and really top 6 to be reasonably safe.

Are you suggesting that there won't be one employer in whole Iowa state eligible to sponsor a work visa? I understand this forum's romance of T14 schools but there should more to the actual ground situation

I don't know anything about who gets visas or is likely to sponsor them, but I'll note that (a) Iowa does have a decent number of reasonably sophisticated law firms, though most are fairly selective from Iowa (minimally top ~third probably), and (b) last year 35% of Iowa students went to biglaw+FC, not 10%. If state governments have some route to visas--again, I have no idea if they do--that would be another route.

I think OP should talk to the law school at Iowa about this, possibly seeing if they have any students in similar positions OP could talk to, and possibly consult an immigration attorney. This is a big decision that you need non-anonymous help with. My guess is that there's probably an immigration attorney in Des Moines that'd willing to talk to you about this informally or the University might have a suggestion (universities are big immigration clients).

[Ibasitt]

[Ibasitt]

Hi, I am currently on the H1b. I did my JD at a non-T14 school and ended up working at a firm. I am offering (some) unsolicited advice because if being a lawyer in the U.S. is truly what you want, I want to help with everything I have. This path is a lot of work for foreigners, but it's truly worth every effort I've made.

I agree with the above, that U Buffalo is not an attractive choice. Iowa might be better, and I can see how it could work for some people, but I personally wouldn't go for reasons I explain below. I agree that the surest path for a work visa (H1b) is to find a job with a big law firm (or a big company, although they rarely hire new grads), and agree that you need grades for that. However, there are, maybe not many, but some, opportunities outside of that scope.

My school is located in a major market (DC/CHI/LA/SF). Our OCI program was decent. That said, if you were not IP, which requires a science undergrad degree, even at my school, you really weren't safe with getting a firm job if not in the top 10%. Most of the int'l students were not in that range, but approximately half of my class year managed to stay in the U.S. and got the visa part worked out. The key is that they REALLY hustled to network with everyone. Government, int'l orgs, professors, biglaw, mildew, small law, everything you can think of. Even though someone could not hire foreign workers, they still talked to them, and eventually, one thing leads to another and then they found something. In order to achieve that, you would need to physically be in market, be ready to meet whenever the other person wants to, follow up after you meet, and go to events. I know your cost would soar due to the COL, but it's a worthy investment. FWIW, I had to share rooms/apartments for part of undergrad and law school to get by, and some days I skipped meals, but I would totally do it again so I could be in the location and be best prepared. I networked, and I actually made friends through the process.

Another factor is the location. Bias is real. People will judge you if you appear different. (I've experienced it first hand.) That said, the five largest legal markets are generally foreign students friendly, in a sense that people will still get to know you and listen to you about the visa stuff. They may say no visa sponsorship, but that's more likely a business decision. I can't guarantee that in smaller markets.

If you are following the traditional big law firm path, language likely will be a challenge. I did undergrad in the States. English is not my first language, but because I've addressed the language barrier during my undergrad, I had no issues with following lectures, participating in class, taking a time crunched exam, etc. I know some of my LLM friends struggled with the language part. They definitely are brilliant, especially that they have years of practicing experience. But, if they couldn't follow the lecture well or couldn't finish the exam because of the language barrier, their GPA wouldn't be high. Several friends who came to the U.S. straight for law school have told me that the language skills needed were much more than they originally thought. Still, I know people who pulled it off and got firm offers. Since your English is good, you can try with an accelerated program, and if you find the language part too difficult, you can always ask to switch to the three-year program. My friend from school (also int'l) has done that, and s/he now is an associate at a big law firm in my school's market.

A lot of the above also depends your personal background. If you are from a pretty well-off family in your home country and you've had a lot of contact with the society in Europe and Northern America, things will be much more manageable. On the other hand, if your background is just another person with limited financial resources (like me, and many immigrants here), coming to the U.S. for the first time is like being an animal being displayed in the zoo for the first time. If that's you, besides trying your best and hanging in there until you make it, there isn't really a good way to overcome it.

On the last note, some of my classmates married U.S. citizens. That's definitely the easiest way to solve immigration issue in the U.S. Job hunting will be dramatically easier. I think relationships are more difficult than school, but hey, that's just me.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions!

This is great advice! Thank you for such detailed response.

[nealric]

Not sure about the work visas but if you talk to a legal recruiter (such as "Robert Half legal" they may be able to help with placing at a firm that does .

Thanks. One more thing: I have an offer from Iowa law too. The degree would cost me double but I think they're ranked among top 30. Would going to a T30 school significantly improve my chances of landing a job upon graduation?

Unfortunately, no. Iowa is a good school, but it's not a target school for the large organizations that would be willing to sponsor you for a visa. Only the top 10% of students at Iowa are likely to get jobs at the large firms in Chicago, etc. that are big enough to be visa sponsors. Doesn't seem worth it for a 10% chance of reaching your goals. You need to be looking in the top 14 schools, at a minimum, and really top 6 to be reasonably safe.

Are you suggesting that there won't be one employer in whole Iowa state eligible to sponsor a work visa? I understand this forum's romance of T14 schools but there should more to the actual ground situation

No. However, it is very rare for smaller firms to sponsor work visas. What incentive does some smaller firm have to spend thousands of dollars and many hours of administrative work to hire someone that needs a visa when there are plenty of applicants with U.S. work authorization? It is very expensive for firms to do as a one-off and thus only larger biglaw firms who hire enough people that they have experience with the process typically sponsor them. A place like Iowa simply does not have a significant number of firms of the size that typically do sponsor visas to have a significant number of slots for new grads.

Is it possible that an Iowa grad could find a firm willing to sponsor them? Yes. It is possible. Is the probability sufficiently high that it is worth the risk? I would argue no. Keep in mind that the need for visa sponsorship is a special situation. If the OP had U.S. work authorization, I would not be giving anywhere near the same "T-14 or bust" advice.