Best Firms for Practicing Tax in Dallas/Houston Forum

[wilmontwombat]

I'm a 2L at a T14 preparing for OCI. I'm aiming for Texas firms, particularly in Dallas or Houston, and am interested in tax law. I would probably prefer tax controversy over the corporate/planning side of things, but I am honestly open to either.

Does anyone have any insight about the best firms for this in these markets and what conditions are like? Any other advice for breaking into tax is also appreciated.

[HydroFlask666]

What are your ties? Most people target one or the other city.

[wilmontwombat]

What are your ties? Most people target one or the other city.

I have solid ties to Dallas but not to Houston. All things considered, I'd prefer Dallas, but I am including Houston in my search just to cover my bases.

[dabigchina]

Nealric will know more, but my impression is that it will be a heavy lift to find a strong controversy group in Texas (or anywhere outside of NYC/DC for that matter).

Chances are very strong that any tax group you join in Texas will have you supporting corporate. Given that, any of the big corporate groups in Texas will have a large tax group (BB/VA/LW/KE)

Edit: Baker Mckenzie has offices in texas that you can look to. They have a strong controversy practice nationwide (I know they do a lot of transfer pricing work), but I don't know what their texas practice is like.

[blair.waldorf]

Keep in mind that even at the large firms, tax groups can be pretty small and selective. I have a few friends who summered around V&E with an interest in tax, and I think the tax group took 3-4 people out of like, 50 summers.

[wilmontwombat]

Nealric will know more, but my impression is that it will be a heavy lift to find a strong controversy group in Texas (or anywhere outside of NYC/DC for that matter).

Chances are very strong that any tax group you join in Texas will have you supporting corporate. Given that, any of the big corporate groups in Texas will have a large tax group (BB/VA/LW/KE)

Edit: Baker Mckenzie has offices in texas that you can look to. They have a strong controversy practice nationwide (I know they do a lot of transfer pricing work), but I don't know what their texas practice is like.

Thanks for the tip about BM. I'll follow up on that.

What you said confirms what I've found: most of the Texas tax practices are focused on corporate. That's not a deal breaker for me thankfully.

[wilmontwombat]

Keep in mind that even at the large firms, tax groups can be pretty small and selective. I have a few friends who summered around V&E with an interest in tax, and I think the tax group took 3-4 people out of like, 50 summers.

I understand it can be tough, but wow those are slim numbers. Any advice on how to become one of the select few other than taking lots of tax classes to demonstrate interest?

[Anonymous User]

My firm only has a small tax group in Dallas. Usually they only take on a new associate every other year. Our tax group (similar to other specialty groups) just seems to have a higher Partner to associate ratio so that may be part of the reason.

I've heard at least historically that Thompson & Knight in Dallas has a well regarded and relatively large tax group that does some controversy work but that could be different now.

[wilmontwombat]

My firm only has a small tax group in Dallas. Usually they only take on a new associate every other year. Our tax group (similar to other specialty groups) just seems to have a higher Partner to associate ratio so that may be part of the reason.

I've heard at least historically that Thompson & Knight in Dallas has a well regarded and relatively large tax group that does some controversy work but that could be different now.

Thanks, appreciate the information. I realize I'm somewhat trying to have my cake and eat it too (live in Texas, practice in tax) but at this point it can't hurt for me to try.

[nealric]

Nealric will know more, but my impression is that it will be a heavy lift to find a strong controversy group in Texas (or anywhere outside of NYC/DC for that matter).

Chances are very strong that any tax group you join in Texas will have you supporting corporate. Given that, any of the big corporate groups in Texas will have a large tax group (BB/VA/LW/KE)

Edit: Baker Mckenzie has offices in texas that you can look to. They have a strong controversy practice nationwide (I know they do a lot of transfer pricing work), but I don't know what their texas practice is like.

Agreed that there isn't going to be a lot of controversy work in Texas, but there's some. V&E, Baker Botts, and Mayer Brown Houston all do controversy work, but I doubt they have all that much in terms of jr. associate support. There's also Chamberlain Hrdickla, which is more of a middle market tax boutique, but I get the impression it does a decent bit more controversy work as a portion of their practice than biglaw. Not sure about Baker McKenzie- they didn't have a big controversy group in Houston last I looked- more of a transfer pricing group, but it has been some time since I had interaction with them. I'm less familiar with Dallas, but Baker Botts has some well-regarded tax practitioners there.

The thing with controversy is that biglaw only tends to get involved on major legal issues that are likely to be litigated. It's becoming more and more rare for large businesses to litigate major tax issues in the U.S. Accounting standards like Fin48 mean you can't really be that aggressive in the public company world, and anything with serious money on the line is likely to be operating at least under a "should" level opinion. It's relatively rare for Biglaw-level advice and IRS chief counsel to be far enough apart that a well-advised corporate client really steps in it that badly.

I will say that some dual duty between planning and controversy isn't all that unusual in the tax world. Even before I was in house, I did some controversy work even though I was probably 80% planning. I actually do more controversy in house than that, but it's mostly SALT or foreign jurisdiction controversies. That said, if your idea of controversy involves going to court, you really need to be in D.C. Most tax controversy is at the audit or appeals level.

As a summer associate, the best you can do is show strong demonstrated interest and get to know the tax folks. Even at the largest firms, the tax groups are small. In a 200 attorney office, you might see years where the tax department doesn't bring in a single first year associate. So there's a certain element of luck in getting placed in a tax group. You need to gel with the personalities and there needs to be a need that year. If you like the idea of tax controversy, you might also look into an ERISA litigation practice- it's similar in some ways.

[wilmontwombat]

Nealric will know more, but my impression is that it will be a heavy lift to find a strong controversy group in Texas (or anywhere outside of NYC/DC for that matter).

Chances are very strong that any tax group you join in Texas will have you supporting corporate. Given that, any of the big corporate groups in Texas will have a large tax group (BB/VA/LW/KE)

Edit: Baker Mckenzie has offices in texas that you can look to. They have a strong controversy practice nationwide (I know they do a lot of transfer pricing work), but I don't know what their texas practice is like.

Agreed that there isn't going to be a lot of controversy work in Texas, but there's some. V&E, Baker Botts, and Mayer Brown Houston all do controversy work, but I doubt they have all that much in terms of jr. associate support. There's also Chamberlain Hrdickla, which is more of a middle market tax boutique, but I get the impression it does a decent bit more controversy work as a portion of their practice than biglaw. Not sure about Baker McKenzie- they didn't have a big controversy group in Houston last I looked- more of a transfer pricing group, but it has been some time since I had interaction with them. I'm less familiar with Dallas, but Baker Botts has some well-regarded tax practitioners there.

The thing with controversy is that biglaw only tends to get involved on major legal issues that are likely to be litigated. It's becoming more and more rare for large businesses to litigate major tax issues in the U.S. Accounting standards like Fin48 mean you can't really be that aggressive in the public company world, and anything with serious money on the line is likely to be operating at least under a "should" level opinion. It's relatively rare for Biglaw-level advice and IRS chief counsel to be far enough apart that a well-advised corporate client really steps in it that badly.

I will say that some dual duty between planning and controversy isn't all that unusual in the tax world. Even before I was in house, I did some controversy work even though I was probably 80% planning. I actually do more controversy in house than that, but it's mostly SALT or foreign jurisdiction controversies. That said, if your idea of controversy involves going to court, you really need to be in D.C. Most tax controversy is at the audit or appeals level.

As a summer associate, the best you can do is show strong demonstrated interest and get to know the tax folks. Even at the largest firms, the tax groups are small. In a 200 attorney office, you might see years where the tax department doesn't bring in a single first year associate. So there's a certain element of luck in getting placed in a tax group. You need to gel with the personalities and there needs to be a need that year. If you like the idea of tax controversy, you might also look into an ERISA litigation practice- it's similar in some ways.

This is tremendously helpful and I appreciate your post. This will help with how I go about my job search.

I think I'm better suited to tax controversy, but at the end of the day I think I would be fine on the planning side too. I'd just rather live in Texas than D.C. if it comes down to that.

[nealric]

Nealric will know more, but my impression is that it will be a heavy lift to find a strong controversy group in Texas (or anywhere outside of NYC/DC for that matter).

Chances are very strong that any tax group you join in Texas will have you supporting corporate. Given that, any of the big corporate groups in Texas will have a large tax group (BB/VA/LW/KE)

Edit: Baker Mckenzie has offices in texas that you can look to. They have a strong controversy practice nationwide (I know they do a lot of transfer pricing work), but I don't know what their texas practice is like.

Agreed that there isn't going to be a lot of controversy work in Texas, but there's some. V&E, Baker Botts, and Mayer Brown Houston all do controversy work, but I doubt they have all that much in terms of jr. associate support. There's also Chamberlain Hrdickla, which is more of a middle market tax boutique, but I get the impression it does a decent bit more controversy work as a portion of their practice than biglaw. Not sure about Baker McKenzie- they didn't have a big controversy group in Houston last I looked- more of a transfer pricing group, but it has been some time since I had interaction with them. I'm less familiar with Dallas, but Baker Botts has some well-regarded tax practitioners there.

The thing with controversy is that biglaw only tends to get involved on major legal issues that are likely to be litigated. It's becoming more and more rare for large businesses to litigate major tax issues in the U.S. Accounting standards like Fin48 mean you can't really be that aggressive in the public company world, and anything with serious money on the line is likely to be operating at least under a "should" level opinion. It's relatively rare for Biglaw-level advice and IRS chief counsel to be far enough apart that a well-advised corporate client really steps in it that badly.

I will say that some dual duty between planning and controversy isn't all that unusual in the tax world. Even before I was in house, I did some controversy work even though I was probably 80% planning. I actually do more controversy in house than that, but it's mostly SALT or foreign jurisdiction controversies. That said, if your idea of controversy involves going to court, you really need to be in D.C. Most tax controversy is at the audit or appeals level.

As a summer associate, the best you can do is show strong demonstrated interest and get to know the tax folks. Even at the largest firms, the tax groups are small. In a 200 attorney office, you might see years where the tax department doesn't bring in a single first year associate. So there's a certain element of luck in getting placed in a tax group. You need to gel with the personalities and there needs to be a need that year. If you like the idea of tax controversy, you might also look into an ERISA litigation practice- it's similar in some ways.

This is tremendously helpful and I appreciate your post. This will help with how I go about my job search.

I think I'm better suited to tax controversy, but at the end of the day I think I would be fine on the planning side too. I'd just rather live in Texas than D.C. if it comes down to that.

I'd say the differences between the two are less dramatic than you might think. When you are doing planning, you also have to put your hypothetical controversy hat on. Most technical tax controversy folks have pretty similar personalities to planners.

Where you get very different personalities is the true tax litigators- like the DOJ tax folks. They are trial lawyers who happen to take on tax issues, but usually aren't all that well versed in technical tax.

[Anonymous User]

The hottest tax controversy areas for the next decade will involve micro captive insurance companies and syndicated conservation easements - much smaller dollar amounts at stake but lots and lots of volume. These cases seem to go to smaller boutique-type shops (primarily out of Atlanta)

[wilmontwombat]

The hottest tax controversy areas for the next decade will involve micro captive insurance companies and syndicated conservation easements - much smaller dollar amounts at stake but lots and lots of volume. These cases seem to go to smaller boutique-type shops (primarily out of Atlanta)

I'll put this on my radar. Thanks for the heads up!

[Anonymous User]

The hottest tax controversy areas for the next decade will involve micro captive insurance companies and syndicated conservation easements - much smaller dollar amounts at stake but lots and lots of volume. These cases seem to go to smaller boutique-type shops (primarily out of Atlanta)

Can you go into more detail? How does one learn about this stuff?

[nealric]

The hottest tax controversy areas for the next decade will involve micro captive insurance companies and syndicated conservation easements - much smaller dollar amounts at stake but lots and lots of volume. These cases seem to go to smaller boutique-type shops (primarily out of Atlanta)

Can you go into more detail? How does one learn about this stuff?

Personally, I'm not sure I'd want to make a career out of it. They are both pretty dodgy transactions sold by promoters to relatively unsophisticated taxpayers. It's the asbestos litigation of the tax world.

[cisscum]

The hottest tax controversy areas for the next decade will involve micro captive insurance companies and syndicated conservation easements - much smaller dollar amounts at stake but lots and lots of volume. These cases seem to go to smaller boutique-type shops (primarily out of Atlanta)

Can you go into more detail? How does one learn about this stuff?

Personally, I'm not sure I'd want to make a career out of it. They are both pretty dodgy transactions sold by promoters to relatively unsophisticated taxpayers. It's the asbestos litigation of the tax world.

Personally, I don't think spending your life lowering a soulless multinational corporation's ETR is any more honourable, but thanks for your input.

[nealric]

The hottest tax controversy areas for the next decade will involve micro captive insurance companies and syndicated conservation easements - much smaller dollar amounts at stake but lots and lots of volume. These cases seem to go to smaller boutique-type shops (primarily out of Atlanta)

Can you go into more detail? How does one learn about this stuff?

Personally, I'm not sure I'd want to make a career out of it. They are both pretty dodgy transactions sold by promoters to relatively unsophisticated taxpayers. It's the asbestos litigation of the tax world.

Personally, I don't think spending your life lowering a soulless multinational corporation's ETR is any more honourable, but thanks for your input.

It's not a question of honor. Everyone, even tax shelter promoters (and especially their clients) deserves competent representation. It's a question of what will give you a good foundation for a long-term career. You are probably not going to be developing good technical tax skills as a junior if you are primarily doing this sort of work because it involves a lot of repetitive issues on matters of law that have been mostly settled.

[TexasBigLaw]

I have some friends in the tax group at Baker McKenzie and they seem very happy there. Can't speak to the type of work they do but from what I hear it sounds like good culture and a nice place to work.

[wilmontwombat]

I have some friends in the tax group at Baker McKenzie and they seem very happy there. Can't speak to the type of work they do but from what I hear it sounds like good culture and a nice place to work.

Thanks for the info. I'm very glad to hear this.

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone know what the lateral market is like? I haven't seen many ads for corporate tax in texas.

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone know what the lateral market is like? I haven't seen many ads for corporate tax in texas.

It really depends on the vicissitudes of the economy and deal flow, but there are lateral opportunities out there. Keep in mind that biglaw tax is a very small world in Texas. The total number of biglaw tax attorneys in Dallas or Houston is only going to number in the dozens. Most lateral openings aren't going to be advertised positions.

When I looked into lateraling some years ago, there was only one advertised position the entire year I looked. However, I ended up interviewing at 3 other firms that did not have any advertised position. If you are a strong candidate, you probably already know many of the individuals you need to be talking to.

[cisscum]

Does anyone know what the lateral market is like? I haven't seen many ads for corporate tax in texas.

It really depends on the vicissitudes of the economy and deal flow, but there are lateral opportunities out there. Keep in mind that biglaw tax is a very small world in Texas. The total number of biglaw tax attorneys in Dallas or Houston is only going to number in the dozens. Most lateral openings aren't going to be advertised positions.

When I looked into lateraling some years ago, there was only one advertised position the entire year I looked. However, I ended up interviewing at 3 other firms that did not have any advertised position. If you are a strong candidate, you probably already know many of the individuals you need to be talking to.

Did you end up lateralling? Would love to discuss by pm