NYC biglaw litigation: lifestyle and free time Forum

[istan]

I'm aiming for BigLaw litigation in NYC and I'm trying to wrap my head around the time demands and mentally prepare for that. I've been thinking about the minimum amount of time to myself I need to be happy. I mean time where I don't have to be working on anything, just relaxing (other than the bare minimum of being responsive and letting supervisors know that I'll handle something soon).

I think my needs are:
1. Eight hours every night for sleeping (I think everyone should prioritize this to stay healthy);
2. About four hours total every day, on either side of work, to exercise, make meals, talk to family, etc (e.g. 7am-9am every morning plus 8pm-10pm every night);
3. At least 36 hours, in an uninterrupted stretch, every weekend, to socialize, go on outings, run errands, etc (e.g. from 7pm on Saturday night to 7am on Monday morning).

This allows me to work 12-hour days every weekday and work one day every weekend, but still have the chunks of time to myself that I need for my mental health. Is this a realistic lifestyle, or are the demands of NYC BigLaw such that even these limited stretches of free time are unlikely? I know there will be some weeks where I'll be extremely busy--I'm talking in general, on an average week.

[legalpotato]

A+ trolling.

[istan]

A+ trolling.

Lol this is actually genuine because I can't tell from this website how many hours people actually work. I don't even know if you're saying it's trolling because my free time estimates are too high or too low :/

[Law2020hopeful]

A+ trolling.

Lol this is actually genuine because I can't tell from this website how many hours people actually work. I don't even know if you're saying it's trolling because my free time estimates are too high or too low :/

Too high.

[2013]

This is all unrealistic. You don’t control your time. You get paid well as a junior because of your time/availability.

[Anonymous User]

Way too high.

Plan on working 7 days per week from 9 am to midnight. If you work less than that, yay! You get free time.

At the beginning, it takes a bit to ramp up - but by Month 4 or so, you'll be going 110%.

The other thing is, even if you *think* you are done with work, you can be called back in at any second.

Your expectations should be:

6 hours of sleep per night
4 hours per weekend for socializing
30 minutes of self-care time in the morning.

(Above is the worst case scenario, but definitely not unrealistic).

If this is a troll, A+.

[Anonymous User]

Way too high.

Plan on working 7 days per week from 9 am to midnight. If you work less than that, yay! You get free time.

At the beginning, it takes a bit to ramp up - but by Month 4 or so, you'll be going 110%.

The other thing is, even if you *think* you are done with work, you can be called back in at any second.

Your expectations should be:

6 hours of sleep per night
4 hours per weekend for socializing
30 minutes of self-care time in the morning.

(Above is the worst case scenario, but definitely not unrealistic).

If this is a troll, A+.

This is a serious question: that has to be for rough periods of time (major case, deal closing, etc.) and not constant, right? How does anyone last more than one or two years under those conditions?

I'm starting biglaw soon and my expectation is more: an hour in the morning to take my dog out, shower, get ready, commute, etc. (this would be more like 20 minutes with WFH, to be fair); work most of the day; 1-2 hours of free time at night to do errands, laundry, eat, etc. depending on the day; 7-8 hours of sleep. Even that sounds absolutely awful, and I don't plan to do biglaw for any longer than necessary to get a decent in-house gig. I don't know how anyone can make it more than a year or two under the conditions you've described. That's not a life.

[hlss09]

Try to find a lower V100 that pays market (or old market, not counting COVID bonuses) where you can bill 2000 +/- without any real consequences. If you go to a V20, not gonna happen.

[Anonymous User]

This is Anon quoted above.

Thats correct - 50% of people leave big law by year 3. Its not a life. This is why substance abuse, alcoholism, depression, loneliness, etc are rampant in law.

I guess I should be clear - this is what you should be prepared for. I'd say this was (for me) about the 75th percentile of busyness.

That is, I was often this busy, but there were times when I was able to watch a football game, go to the gym.

The thing that gets missed on this site is that you never know when you will be at dinner with your SO, at the gym, at a game, etc and your life goes from 0 to 100 really quick. You can never be "off." My friends quickly developed anxiety problems, began compulsively checking their phones, would wake up at 3 am to check their phones (and they often had requests from partners). I had friends who began getting requests from 7 am and were literally not able to come to work because they never got a chance to commute in.

My friends and I often wondered why there were almost zero nice/friendly mid-levels and above. Do the nice people leave big law by then, or is the niceness crushed out of them? I left Biglaw before I could figure it out.

[Anonymous User]

Last thought from this Anon

I think whoever said go to a lower ranked V100 is on to something. Of course, Shutle Roth and Zabel has different expectations than the V10. But, I think most big law firms in NY have (generally) similar expectations.

I thought these threads are helpful (if depressing): viewtopic.php?f=4&t=261392

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=297796

I saw all this not to be a debbie downer but in hopes of giving you the info so that you can plan your life accordingly (don't sign up for a weekly theatre pass) and so you can be pleasantly surprised when you get time off.

[JusticeSquee]

A+ trolling.

Lol this is actually genuine because I can't tell from this website how many hours people actually work. I don't even know if you're saying it's trolling because my free time estimates are too high or too low :/

Way too high. There will be weeks when your “needs” as you describe them are met. There will be weeks when you will be working for 100 hours. You cannot predict if you will get the former or the latter. As a biglaw associate, you earn your higher salary by being available and because your hours are entirely erratic and unpredictable.

It sucks, the money is good.

[istan]

Alarming but telling that you guys think this is an unreasonable amount of free time to hope for... definitely a turn off from pursuing biglaw but good to know. I hope we can work toward a world where 8 hours of sleep and enough time to make a meal for yourself and have plans on the weekend is not absurd

[purplegoldtornado]

Alarming but telling that you guys think this is an unreasonable amount of free time to hope for... definitely a turn off from pursuing biglaw but good to know. I hope we can work toward a world where 8 hours of sleep and enough time to make a meal for yourself and have plans on the weekend is not absurd

It's not absurd to ask for. You're exactly right. And those jobs do exist! You can find plenty of jobs that pay $60,000 to $90,000 jobs that offer those benefits.

[Anonymous User]

Alarming but telling that you guys think this is an unreasonable amount of free time to hope for... definitely a turn off from pursuing biglaw but good to know. I hope we can work toward a world where 8 hours of sleep and enough time to make a meal for yourself and have plans on the weekend is not absurd

It's not absurd to ask for. You're exactly right. And those jobs do exist! You can find plenty of jobs that pay $60,000 to $90,000 jobs that offer those benefits.

I agree that law pays a 25 year old absurdly well, particularly if you have minimal debt. One reason that it pays well is that associates are worked to the bone and expected to drop whatever they are doing on a whim when a partner or client needs something.

However, that doesn't mean we should give biglaw firms a free pass. I am totally fine with working a LOT in exchange for a fat stack of cash. But it really shouldn't be acceptable for an employer to tell its employees that they cannot sleep or properly feed themselves. There needs to be a line. I'm totally fine sacrificing a lot of my free time, vacations, etc. I'm fine pulling the occasional all-nighter. But I'm not going to spend years sleeping 5-6 hours per night and eating fast food because I don't have a free moment to cook. I'm not going to take years off of my life for a job. No one should.

Also.. there are well-paying jobs that do not require sacrificing your health. My SO has an MBA and makes what a first-year associate makes + better benefits. He works 50ish hours per week, and he very very rarely has the unpredictability that biglaw has. (This is why I'm posting anon. Don't want to out myself.).

[purplegoldtornado]

Alarming but telling that you guys think this is an unreasonable amount of free time to hope for... definitely a turn off from pursuing biglaw but good to know. I hope we can work toward a world where 8 hours of sleep and enough time to make a meal for yourself and have plans on the weekend is not absurd

It's not absurd to ask for. You're exactly right. And those jobs do exist! You can find plenty of jobs that pay $60,000 to $90,000 jobs that offer those benefits.

I agree that law pays a 25 year old absurdly well, particularly if you have minimal debt. One reason that it pays well is that associates are worked to the bone and expected to drop whatever they are doing on a whim when a partner or client needs something.

However, that doesn't mean we should give biglaw firms a free pass. I am totally fine with working a LOT in exchange for a fat stack of cash. But it really shouldn't be acceptable for an employer to tell its employees that they cannot sleep or properly feed themselves. There needs to be a line. I'm totally fine sacrificing a lot of my free time, vacations, etc. I'm fine pulling the occasional all-nighter. But I'm not going to spend years sleeping 5-6 hours per night and eating fast food because I don't have a free moment to cook. I'm not going to take years off of my life for a job. No one should.

Also.. there are well-paying jobs that do not require sacrificing your health. My SO has an MBA and makes what a first-year associate makes + better benefits. He works 50ish hours per week, and he very very rarely has the unpredictability that biglaw has. (This is why I'm posting anon. Don't want to out myself.).

Oh yeah, that's totally fair. My point was just that you can't want a job that pays absurdly well and then gripe that it doesn't require a lot of sacrifice. But you're right; I am sure that there are a lot of boundaries crossed. On another note, have your SO get ahold of me to tell me how to get what he has with an MBA so I can drop out of law school!!

[nixy]

Then don’t take a biglaw job, I guess? I don’t think employers should expect that, but it’s not like anyone is forced to take the job.

[replevin123]

there are jobs that pay 100-130k without advanced degrees and with great work-life balance, like no weekend work and about 45 hours/wk including lunches and breaks (the main perk of not billing hours). There are an abundance of these in tech (non-eng) or even certain types of consulting. They are the best outcomes for people who value that and are not too difficult to get if you have a good school on your resume and are sociable and analytical. I left one of those for law school because I wanted to be a lawyer. I will clerk and am happy with my choice. I want to work. And work a lot. I really like the law. I value that more than the free time. I plan on litigating. That said, I never really understood the appeal of corporate work. I get that people might choose it because they feel they don’t have reasonable alternatives (they are most likely wrong), but I don’t get who desires it. An MBA or just working seems to make more sense if you’re interested in “deals” or the business side of things.

[istan]

Then don’t take a biglaw job, I guess? I don’t think employers should expect that, but it’s not like anyone is forced to take the job.

Yeah, this is probably the answer but I wish this didn’t mean giving up essentially the only stable and lucrative path (for most people) in the legal profession. I’ve struggled with whether I want to commit to biglaw and all its demands and I wish resources like this website would normalize other options for those who are not willing to make these kinds of sacrifices of their time and autonomy. I hope it becomes a more mainstream view that no employer should prevent you from having time to take care of yourself (maybe the pandemic will lead us in that direction). I wish the legal profession would stop funneling high-performing students toward working themselves to the bone for a firm and give them space to think about what kind of life they actually want—and I wish working for a firm didn’t mean giving up all control over your time. We should have better ways to do our work in 2020.

[purplegoldtornado]

Then don’t take a biglaw job, I guess? I don’t think employers should expect that, but it’s not like anyone is forced to take the job.

Yeah, this is probably the answer but I wish this didn’t mean giving up essentially the only stable and lucrative path (for most people) in the legal profession. I’ve struggled with whether I want to commit to biglaw and all its demands and I wish resources like this website would normalize other options for those who are not willing to make these kinds of sacrifices of their time and autonomy. I hope it becomes a more mainstream view that no employer should prevent you from having time to take care of yourself (maybe the pandemic will lead us in that direction). I wish the legal profession would stop funneling high-performing students toward working themselves to the bone for a firm and give them space to think about what kind of life they actually want—and I wish working for a firm didn’t mean giving up all control over your time. We should have better ways to do our work in 2020.

I guess you could try biglaw in a secondary market? Someone can correct me, but I’m pretty sure it might be more toward what you are desiring.

[istan]

I guess you could try biglaw in a secondary market? Someone can correct me, but I’m pretty sure it might be more toward what you are desiring.

Having summered at a big firm in a secondary market, I think it’s true that they have much better work-life balance. But I want to live in NYC for personal and cultural reasons and I wish working in the law there didn’t require being miserable!

[Anonymous User]

I guess you could try biglaw in a secondary market? Someone can correct me, but I’m pretty sure it might be more toward what you are desiring.

Having summered at a big firm in a secondary market, I think it’s true that they have much better work-life balance. But I want to live in NYC for personal and cultural reasons and I wish working in the law there didn’t require being miserable!

Try to find a lower V100 that pays market (or old market, not counting COVID bonuses) where you can bill 2000 +/- without any real consequences. If you go to a V20, not gonna happen.

I would echo what hlss09 said then. A lower V100/AmLaw 200 firm, preferably one that pays market, is probably what you're going to want to shoot for if you're looking for some better work/life balance. I'd also try to prioritize some of the firms that are headquartered in other markets. I don't know for sure but I'm thinking a place like Baker Botts' New York office, or one of the Atlanta based firms with NY offices might be better. Of course this doesn't apply for places like Kirkland, but hopefully you get the gist.

[nixy]

Biglaw is lucrative, certainly, but I don't think it's the most stable path just because it's probably the easiest default path out of a top school. Very few people will make partner, most people ultimately leave because they hate it or they get forced out for economic (or performance) reasons, and people spend their time either swamped with work or worried they'll get fired because they aren't. I totally get that people go into biglaw for the money (especially if you have student loans) and/or for the experience that gets you another kind of job (like working in house), but that's not the same as it being stable, either.

There are lots and lots of different kinds of legal jobs in NYC and they're not all going to require you to be miserable. They're just not going to pay what biglaw pays, either.

(Being a successful personal injury lawyer can pay a lot more than biglaw, too, but it's not something someone can just fall into out of school.)

[2013]

OP,

You should really consider going to a smaller market (Minneapolis, Indianapolis, KC, STL, etc.). You will definitely be able to have the lifestyle you want in a smaller market. Some of my friends in tertiary markets have close to a 9-5 M-F schedules making at least $150k. Nonequity partnership (making high-$200k and up) seems guaranteed at these places.

Also, New York isn’t going to return to normal for quite some time (if ever). I’m assuming you’re a 2L. You will probably have burned out by the time New York returns to pre-covid times. That’s something to consider.

As for the other discussion in the thread, I agree that I don’t get why people who are so interested in deals went to law school v an MBA. MBAs in major cities make a lot more out of the gate (I had friends who got $250k all-in in year 1 from their jobs), although I think it generally balances out after a few years. For the non-engineering jobs at tech companies, many people seem cap out at a salary lower than a first year associate at a market firm (my friend makes $170k or so at google in a higher level business ops position with an arts and science BA), so I understand the allure of law school for them.

[Anonymous User]

I think we've arrived at the end point of most TLS threads.

OP: I want a life but also work in NY Big Law

Everyone: That's impossible.

OP: Are you kidding? Thats inhumane (or the alternate, which fortunately didn't happen here: "my firm promised me its different").

Everyone: Get an MBA, try a secondary city, do something else. A 25 year old making 200,000 a year only makes sense if they get worked to the bone.

[kaiser]

They don't pay you that high salary right out of the gate because of any substantive skill or ability. They pay that so early because they are buying your availability and time. No way would you be able to have that level of predictability or control over your schedule. And yes, it can be brutal and difficult. Thats why biglaw in NY isn't really a "career", as much as its just a temporary stop for most in order to gain skills, network, pay off debt, and use as a springboard to better things.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying you wouldn't have weeks where that hypothetical schedule would be workable. There would absolutely be some weeks where you will get precisely that amount of free time, and maybe even more, at exactly the times you want to carve out. But the thing is that you can't predict or plan it. The very next week could very easily be a tough week where you spend all day in the office 7 days straight.