You too could have shit grades, go to a T3, and still end up in the DOJ eventually

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caveman2

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You too could have shit grades, go to a T3, and still end up in the DOJ eventually

Post by caveman2 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:29 pm

I'm posting just to give hope to those who are feeling hopeless.

I graduated in 2014 from a T3 school with really terrible grades, no journal, no moot court. I had no job lined up after graduation but eventually ended up working as a landman for nine months at a really horrible company and was miserable, but hey it was a job. I quit that job and moved back in with my parents and studied for the PA bar, passed, and ended up getting a clerkship for a judge in a very small county. The pay was nil but I loved that job. Did that for almost two years, made a good impression, and then got a job as an ADA in a bigger neighboring county. Did that for another two years and got an insane 25-30 jury trials under my belt (both misdemeanors and felonies, always solo, no second chair), but was overworked and incredibly underpaid. I segued that into a job that I just started in the DOJ at the GS-13 level in an awesome medium-sized city, will jump to GS-14 after one year. I won't ever have to work more than 40 hours a week and am making a comfortable six figures.

I just feel like most of the stuff I read on here is very gloom and doom if you don't go to a T14, don't make law review, don't make moot court, aren't top 10% etc. I'm here to tell you that work ethic, hustle, and the willingness to go where the opportunities are matter much more in the long run. Don't let anyone make you believe otherwise.

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Re: You too could have shit grades, go to a T3, and still end up in the DOJ eventually

Post by Pennoyer v. Meh » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:46 pm

I mean, that's sort of a distortion of what people say. It's not that you can't, it's that the odds are stacked against you. Which they are. How many of your peers with your grades succeeded? Even your situation, where you "made a good impression", seems to have involved a lot of luck. And that's the problem. Things like this are fickle, and people at lower-ranked law schools, without honors or journal or moot court, are at a significant disadvantage. It's good to know that they can succeed, but they should be told that it isn't the likely outcome.

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Re: You too could have shit grades, go to a T3, and still end up in the DOJ eventually

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:50 pm

Pennoyer v. Meh wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:46 pm
I mean, that's sort of a distortion of what people say. It's not that you can't, it's that the odds are stacked against you. Which they are. How many of your peers with your grades succeeded? Even your situation, where you "made a good impression", seems to have involved a lot of luck. And that's the problem. Things like this are fickle, and people at lower-ranked law schools, without honors or journal or moot court, are at a significant disadvantage. It's good to know that they can succeed, but they should be told that it isn't the likely outcome.
Making a good impression has absolutely nothing to do with luck, and that is the point.

caveman2

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Re: You too could have shit grades, go to a T3, and still end up in the DOJ eventually

Post by caveman2 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:01 pm

Pennoyer v. Meh wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:46 pm
I mean, that's sort of a distortion of what people say. It's not that you can't, it's that the odds are stacked against you. Which they are. How many of your peers with your grades succeeded? Even your situation, where you "made a good impression", seems to have involved a lot of luck. And that's the problem. Things like this are fickle, and people at lower-ranked law schools, without honors or journal or moot court, are at a significant disadvantage. It's good to know that they can succeed, but they should be told that it isn't the likely outcome.
Nothing about the past 6 years has been lucky. On top of everything I already mentioned, I failed the TX bar exam the first time I took it and also had to wait 9 months to be barred in PA after I passed because of a pretty substantial C&F issue that took a lot of effort and money to overcome. And all of these obstacles were entirely my own fault through my own doing and laziness. I'm just saying that, even with everything stacked against you, you can always come back from anything if you put in the work and have the patience. I had no connections, no pedigree, not even any other lawyers in my family to solicit advice from.

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Re: You too could have shit grades, go to a T3, and still end up in the DOJ eventually

Post by BrainsyK » Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:32 pm

I agree with the spirit but not necessarily every letter of what OP has to say, but hey, OP, you did awesome! Cheers!

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Re: You too could have shit grades, go to a T3, and still end up in the DOJ eventually

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:50 pm
Pennoyer v. Meh wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:46 pm
I mean, that's sort of a distortion of what people say. It's not that you can't, it's that the odds are stacked against you. Which they are. How many of your peers with your grades succeeded? Even your situation, where you "made a good impression", seems to have involved a lot of luck. And that's the problem. Things like this are fickle, and people at lower-ranked law schools, without honors or journal or moot court, are at a significant disadvantage. It's good to know that they can succeed, but they should be told that it isn't the likely outcome.
Making a good impression has absolutely nothing to do with luck, and that is the point.
Making a good impression has everything to do with luck if you aren’t a straight white guy into sports. As someone who doesn’t check off any of those boxes and didn’t go to a T14, sometimes you meet someone at a screener who you literally don’t rub the right way in that room. Sometimes you do check off all of those boxes and they’re in a bad mood or whatever. You’ll have more rooms/a better chance of making a good impression on at least one set of people if you go to a target school.

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Re: You too could have shit grades, go to a T3, and still end up in the DOJ eventually

Post by Sackboy » Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:50 pm

Making a good impression has absolutely nothing to do with luck.
A lot of women and people of color would strongly disagree with this statement.

I agree with the first response that OP characterized the popular line of thinking here. You can absolutely succeed outside of a T14 or outside of order of the coif at your state school, but OP's outcomes are rare for someone in OP's position.

I'm glad OP has landed the DOJ gig, but if you're bottom of your class at John Marshall then your odds of landing at the DOJ one day are very very small. You could do everything OP has done, and you'd still have a much higher chance of failure than success.

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Re: You too could have shit grades, go to a T3, and still end up in the DOJ eventually

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:04 pm

Sackboy wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:35 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:50 pm

Making a good impression has absolutely nothing to do with luck.
A lot of women and people of color would strongly disagree with this statement.

I agree with the first response that OP characterized the popular line of thinking here. You can absolutely succeed outside of a T14 or outside of order of the coif at your state school, but OP's outcomes are rare for someone in OP's position.

I'm glad OP has landed the DOJ gig, but if you're bottom of your class at John Marshall then your odds of landing at the DOJ one day are very very small. You could do everything OP has done, and you'd still have a much higher chance of failure than success.
Really? Because top grades at my school and didn't get a 1L summer associate position, while lots of women and POC got summer associate positions. Sounds like they have the edge here.

nixy

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Re: You too could have shit grades, go to a T3, and still end up in the DOJ eventually

Post by nixy » Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:04 pm
Sackboy wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:35 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:50 pm

Making a good impression has absolutely nothing to do with luck.
A lot of women and people of color would strongly disagree with this statement.

I agree with the first response that OP characterized the popular line of thinking here. You can absolutely succeed outside of a T14 or outside of order of the coif at your state school, but OP's outcomes are rare for someone in OP's position.

I'm glad OP has landed the DOJ gig, but if you're bottom of your class at John Marshall then your odds of landing at the DOJ one day are very very small. You could do everything OP has done, and you'd still have a much higher chance of failure than success.
Really? Because top grades at my school and didn't get a 1L summer associate position, while lots of women and POC got summer associate positions. Sounds like they have the edge here.
Someone's salty that 1L diversity hiring programs are a thing, and also missing the broader point entirely.

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Re: You too could have shit grades, go to a T3, and still end up in the DOJ eventually

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:17 pm

nixy wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:12 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:04 pm
Sackboy wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:35 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:50 pm

Making a good impression has absolutely nothing to do with luck.
A lot of women and people of color would strongly disagree with this statement.

I agree with the first response that OP characterized the popular line of thinking here. You can absolutely succeed outside of a T14 or outside of order of the coif at your state school, but OP's outcomes are rare for someone in OP's position.

I'm glad OP has landed the DOJ gig, but if you're bottom of your class at John Marshall then your odds of landing at the DOJ one day are very very small. You could do everything OP has done, and you'd still have a much higher chance of failure than success.
Really? Because top grades at my school and didn't get a 1L summer associate position, while lots of women and POC got summer associate positions. Sounds like they have the edge here.
Someone's salty that 1L diversity hiring programs are a thing, and also missing the broader point entirely.
I mean, yeah. Pretty salty. It's a kick in the gut to work really hard 1L year and be at a disadvantage because of a factor I can't control.

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Re: You too could have shit grades, go to a T3, and still end up in the DOJ eventually

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:17 pm
nixy wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:12 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:04 pm
Sackboy wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:35 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:50 pm

Making a good impression has absolutely nothing to do with luck.
A lot of women and people of color would strongly disagree with this statement.

I agree with the first response that OP characterized the popular line of thinking here. You can absolutely succeed outside of a T14 or outside of order of the coif at your state school, but OP's outcomes are rare for someone in OP's position.

I'm glad OP has landed the DOJ gig, but if you're bottom of your class at John Marshall then your odds of landing at the DOJ one day are very very small. You could do everything OP has done, and you'd still have a much higher chance of failure than success.
Really? Because top grades at my school and didn't get a 1L summer associate position, while lots of women and POC got summer associate positions. Sounds like they have the edge here.
Someone's salty that 1L diversity hiring programs are a thing, and also missing the broader point entirely.
I mean, yeah. Pretty salty. It's a kick in the gut to work really hard 1L year and be at a disadvantage because of a factor I can't control.
I'm sorry but you are really showing your uncritical ignorance and unwillingness to see the broader point.

Diversity hiring programs are few and far in between, please see the broader point. You should read some articles online--being able to work hard and make a good impression is luck itself.

Also, the point is--and I'm surprised you have this "you can do it too!" attitude when you've experienced the adversity and know how lucky you were, to get that first job, to have made connections, etc., let alone be able to get a law degree--that it is MORE LIKELY THAN NOT that people in your situation would not come out with the outcomes you got.

Seems like you didn't like some of the posts you saw here in the past, and although they may have sounded elitist or doom and gloom, it's hard to deny that they are in right.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: You too could have shit grades, go to a T3, and still end up in the DOJ eventually

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:23 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:17 pm
nixy wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:12 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:04 pm
Sackboy wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:35 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:50 pm

Making a good impression has absolutely nothing to do with luck.
A lot of women and people of color would strongly disagree with this statement.

I agree with the first response that OP characterized the popular line of thinking here. You can absolutely succeed outside of a T14 or outside of order of the coif at your state school, but OP's outcomes are rare for someone in OP's position.

I'm glad OP has landed the DOJ gig, but if you're bottom of your class at John Marshall then your odds of landing at the DOJ one day are very very small. You could do everything OP has done, and you'd still have a much higher chance of failure than success.
Really? Because top grades at my school and didn't get a 1L summer associate position, while lots of women and POC got summer associate positions. Sounds like they have the edge here.
Someone's salty that 1L diversity hiring programs are a thing, and also missing the broader point entirely.
I mean, yeah. Pretty salty. It's a kick in the gut to work really hard 1L year and be at a disadvantage because of a factor I can't control.
I'm sorry but you are really showing your uncritical ignorance and unwillingness to see the broader point.

Diversity hiring programs are few and far in between, please see the broader point. You should read some articles online--being able to work hard and make a good impression is luck itself.

Also, the point is--and I'm surprised you have this "you can do it too!" attitude when you've experienced the adversity and know how lucky you were, to get that first job, to have made connections, etc., let alone be able to get a law degree--that it is MORE LIKELY THAN NOT that people in your situation would not come out with the outcomes you got.
I'm not OP. Sorry for the confusion!!

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Re: You too could have shit grades, go to a T3, and still end up in the DOJ eventually

Post by nixy » Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:00 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:17 pm
nixy wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:12 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:04 pm
Really? Because top grades at my school and didn't get a 1L summer associate position, while lots of women and POC got summer associate positions. Sounds like they have the edge here.
Someone's salty that 1L diversity hiring programs are a thing, and also missing the broader point entirely.
I mean, yeah. Pretty salty. It's a kick in the gut to work really hard 1L year and be at a disadvantage because of a factor I can't control.
Welcome to what women and people of color frequently experience outside the limited universe of 1L diversity hiring programs! (POC way way way more than white women, admittedly.)

The existence of 1L diversity programs doesn’t mitigate the fact that women and POC struggle way more to, for instance, find mentors and make partner in firms because those who “make a good impression” on (white male) partners tend to be people who look like them.

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cavalier1138

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Re: You too could have shit grades, go to a T3, and still end up in the DOJ eventually

Post by cavalier1138 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:11 am

[modhat]
Stop derailing the thread (directed at Anon who decided to make this a complaint about not getting hired for a 1L SA position).
[/modhat]

OP, this type of thinking is exactly what most of the advice on the site works to counteract. You can find success stories from anywhere. That is, in fact, how T3/T4 programs sell students on their schools. But it doesn't mean that law school applicants should go to any T3 with the expectation that they will be able to get a similar outcome. The general TLS "party line" is to not buy into the one-off anecdotes of successful alumni and to instead focus on the objective job numbers the schools put out.

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Re: You too could have shit grades, go to a T3, and still end up in the DOJ eventually

Post by Fireworks2016 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:10 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:11 am

OP, this type of thinking is exactly what most of the advice on the site works to counteract. You can find success stories from anywhere. That is, in fact, how T3/T4 programs sell students on their schools. But it doesn't mean that law school applicants should go to any T3 with the expectation that they will be able to get a similar outcome. The general TLS "party line" is to not buy into the one-off anecdotes of successful alumni and to instead focus on the objective job numbers the schools put out.
I, for one, applaud OP for winning his/her round of Law School Hunger Games.

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Re: You too could have shit grades, go to a T3, and still end up in the DOJ eventually

Post by nealric » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:24 am

It's a nice success story for folks who are already in law school and feeling hopeless, but I'd be wary of giving the impression to prospective law students that this is a likely outcome.

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Re: You too could have shit grades, go to a T3, and still end up in the DOJ eventually

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:29 pm

nealric wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:24 am
It's a nice success story for folks who are already in law school and feeling hopeless, but I'd be wary of giving the impression to prospective law students that this is a likely outcome.
I agree. I also got relatively lucky out of a poorly ranked school. But I have repeatedly refused the school's requests to put my bio in a "what-our-alumni-are-up-to" feature, because I think it gives the unfair perception that my outcome is likely for folks considering my school. It's not. Only a handful of people have landed jobs like mine out of the law school over the past 2 decades. The school should detail the lives of some median folks that make $50k at an immigration mill if they want to fairly portray what doors the degree can open.

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Re: You too could have shit grades, go to a T3, and still end up in the DOJ eventually

Post by andythefir » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:42 pm

There’s also some sleight of hand in lumping all DOJ employment together. You won’t find many Yale grads on the border USAO offices, and you won’t find many T3 grads in SDNY. AUSA positions Del Rio, Laredo, etc are completely different beasts from honors DOJ hires, AUSA slots in NDCA/NDIL/competitive districts, and so on. Obviously happy for OP, and the moral of the story is competent, hard-working folks will land on their feet. But don’t get your hopes up for DOJ honors from a T3.

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Re: You too could have shit grades, go to a T3, and still end up in the DOJ eventually

Post by nixy » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:43 pm

DOJ Honors actually hires from a pretty huge range of schools: https://www.justice.gov/legal-careers/law-schools

I realize you're likely just using DOJ Honors as shorthand, but it also encompasses a pretty wide range of employment and opportunities. And includes border AUSA positions.

(Which is to say that I agree that "working for DOJ" could mean a whole ton of different things, especially a no-more-than 40-hr/wk GS-13 job, but just wanted to clarify how that works a little.)

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Re: You too could have shit grades, go to a T3, and still end up in the DOJ eventually

Post by HillandHollow » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:11 pm

caveman2 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:29 pm
I'm posting just to give hope to those who are feeling hopeless.

I graduated in 2014 from a T3 school with really terrible grades, no journal, no moot court. I had no job lined up after graduation but eventually ended up working as a landman for nine months at a really horrible company and was miserable, but hey it was a job. I quit that job and moved back in with my parents and studied for the PA bar, passed, and ended up getting a clerkship for a judge in a very small county. [...]

I just feel like most of the stuff I read on here is very gloom and doom if you don't go to a T14, don't make law review, don't make moot court, aren't top 10% etc. I'm here to tell you that work ethic, hustle, and the willingness to go where the opportunities are matter much more in the long run. Don't let anyone make you believe otherwise.
OP, to what do you attribute your ability to get that clerkship? Why would that judge give you a chance, given your resume at that point?

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Re: You too could have shit grades, go to a T3, and still end up in the DOJ eventually

Post by mardash » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:23 pm

nixy wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:43 pm
DOJ Honors actually hires from a pretty huge range of schools: https://www.justice.gov/legal-careers/law-schools

I realize you're likely just using DOJ Honors as shorthand, but it also encompasses a pretty wide range of employment and opportunities. And includes border AUSA positions.

(Which is to say that I agree that "working for DOJ" could mean a whole ton of different things, especially a no-more-than 40-hr/wk GS-13 job, but just wanted to clarify how that works a little.)
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Re: You too could have shit grades, go to a T3, and still end up in the DOJ eventually

Post by cavalier1138 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:46 pm

mardash wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:23 pm
nixy wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:43 pm
DOJ Honors actually hires from a pretty huge range of schools: https://www.justice.gov/legal-careers/law-schools

I realize you're likely just using DOJ Honors as shorthand, but it also encompasses a pretty wide range of employment and opportunities. And includes border AUSA positions.

(Which is to say that I agree that "working for DOJ" could mean a whole ton of different things, especially a no-more-than 40-hr/wk GS-13 job, but just wanted to clarify how that works a little.)
MFW I saw Thomas Jefferson on the California list.
To be fair, that list includes summer intern hires.

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Re: You too could have shit grades, go to a T3, and still end up in the DOJ eventually

Post by nixy » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:18 pm

It does, but the summer intern positions are paid and pretty competitive, in part because in theory they offer a chance to get an offer for after graduation (I think that’s quite rare these days, but it’s theoretically possible).

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Re: You too could have shit grades, go to a T3, and still end up in the DOJ eventually

Post by Sackboy » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:29 pm

nixy wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:18 pm
It does, but the summer intern positions are paid and pretty competitive, in part because in theory they offer a chance to get an offer for after graduation (I think that’s quite rare these days, but it’s theoretically possible).
I was never plugged into the federal agency hiring pipeline, but I thought federal agencies had both SLIP (paid) and unpaid summer students.

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Re: You too could have shit grades, go to a T3, and still end up in the DOJ eventually

Post by nixy » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:37 pm

Sackboy wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:29 pm
nixy wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:18 pm
It does, but the summer intern positions are paid and pretty competitive, in part because in theory they offer a chance to get an offer for after graduation (I think that’s quite rare these days, but it’s theoretically possible).
I was never plugged into the federal agency hiring pipeline, but I thought federal agencies had both SLIP (paid) and unpaid summer students.
They do, but the list I posted is only SLIP interns.

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