What's up with Goodwin? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Title basically says it all. Posting as anon because I have an offer to work here. Ever since the stealth layoffs at the beginning of COVID I've seen mixed sentiments about the firm on these forums. Some people are saying the firm is "trash" with poor exit ops, common layoff trends, etc. Others seem to be saying the stealths are uncommon and they're unusually slammed and billing 2500+ hours. Apart from the Kirkland, Latham, Skadden, etc. debates, I haven't seen any other firm so polarized recently (looking at COVID handling). Would someone be willing to explain their view?

[2013]

Rumor has it that Goodwin laid off like 50 associates. No one has confirmed the actual number, though.

What’s worse is that after they did the layoffs, they turned around and started hiring associates a few months later.

Associates in some practices are apparently billing 2500+ hours, so it’s confusing why a firm would lay off so many associates.

Some other firms that did layoffs are seem as firms that are struggling, so the layoffs are justifiable. Goodwin doesn’t have that argument.

Also, on top of the associates, Goodwin laid off 50 staff members towards the beginning of this.

It just paints a picture of a firm that doesn’t care about its employees. I’ve heard that it’s a great place to work from friends, though.

I think it just mismanaged the whole beginning of the pandemic in a way that a firm as profitable as Goodwin shouldn’t have and now it has taken a slight hit to its reputation on here.

[Anonymous User]

FWIW I'm getting recruiter emails specifically saying if I am interested in moving to Goodwin -- pretty rare for the blast initial email to specify the firm name. Either they really need people or they are trying to change the sentiment after being ousted for the layoffs.

Odds are they don't care at all about the layoffs and just need people.

[Anonymous User]

I used to work there, on the corporate side. Left a few years ago so can't comment on the CODID-related news, but this wouldn't be the first time they conducted layoffs and then almost immediately pivoted to ramping up hiring:
https://abovethelaw.com/2010/04/goodwin ... re-pissed/

Overall it seemed pretty middle of the road in terms of biglaw experience, though it's the only firm I worked at so I only have reports from friends at other places for comparison. Some good partners to work for, some not great ones to work for, the trick was finding the right ones and sticking on their clients/deals. Standard expectations about availability and responding to emails. Exit options, at least on the corporate side, seemed pretty decent for the most part.

[Anonymous User]

I’m not at Goodwin but have several friends that are/have left. The ones that left have said that Goodwin does a piss poor job with laterals (e.g. laterals are staffed on the “worse” deals and the firm does not make an effort to integrate them into the existing group(s)). Those that have left have moved on to other comparable BigLaw gigs so Goodwin has that going for them.

Friends that are still there are drowning (presumably due to the layoffs and lack of manpower).

Pre-COVID they were in a hiring spree, essentially hiring anyone with a pulse (even those black balled from certain markets..) to meet some predicted deluge of work. When the work didn’t show and when COVID hit to exacerbate the situation, they didn’t hesitate to rid themselves of the associates they took on.

Overall - sounds like a story of over-hiring and then over-firing. Bad management all around. Would not recommend.

[Anonymous User]

Goodwin midlevel tech/VC associate here. It's good to hear that we are hiring laterals, because our tech practice is insanely busy. I'm annualizing at 2700.

The people that we laid off were either on the East Coast in practices that aren't/weren't busy, or were associates that were astonishingly bad at their jobs.

If you want to chat about Goodwin, happy to set up a throwaway account or something.

[Anonymous User]

Goodwin is a decent firm to my knowledge. Perhaps they were scared by COVID and acted too quickly, and the high-level management made a bad decision. Apart from that, it's unfair to call them "trash." Their business and financials are probably very strong, since they offered fall start for all the incoming associates and are actively recruiting while things are pretty slow at some v20 firms.

[Anonymous User]

I’m not at Goodwin but have several friends that are/have left. The ones that left have said that Goodwin does a piss poor job with laterals (e.g. laterals are staffed on the “worse” deals and the firm does not make an effort to integrate them into the existing group(s)). Those that have left have moved on to other comparable BigLaw gigs so Goodwin has that going for them.

Friends that are still there are drowning (presumably due to the layoffs and lack of manpower).

Pre-COVID they were in a hiring spree, essentially hiring anyone with a pulse (even those black balled from certain markets..) to meet some predicted deluge of work. When the work didn’t show and when COVID hit to exacerbate the situation, they didn’t hesitate to rid themselves of the associates they took on.

Overall - sounds like a story of over-hiring and then over-firing. Bad management all around. Would not recommend.

How does someone get black balled from a market and how do you know they’re getting hired despite that?

[TheNavigator]

Goodwin midlevel tech/VC associate here. It's good to hear that we are hiring laterals, because our tech practice is insanely busy. I'm annualizing at 2700.

The people that we laid off were either on the East Coast in practices that aren't/weren't busy, or were associates that were astonishingly bad at their jobs.

If you want to chat about Goodwin, happy to set up a throwaway account or something.

Any idea how Goodwin compares to Foley Hoag, especially in private funds/PE and vc/ec? Exit options?

My guess is that Goodwin holds the edge, but that Foley is a nicer place to work. Any credence to this view?

[Anonymous User]

OP - completely understand being torn about this decision, since they give a good sales pitch. I was excited to lateral to Goodwin (the culture seemed awesome!), but I now regret the decision. I was one of the lucky ones who did not get stealthed, but I know a number of people who were. Their hours were fine before everything went down, but the group seemed to make cuts the minute they feared that work would slow down. At least in my group, they seem to overhire when things are good and overfire when things are bad. (Of course, it's very possible that other groups have less of a trigger finger with this). You may be getting such polarizing answers because of the wild inconsistencies between offices and groups.

I recommend looking at the website to see how many associates are in the office and group you are interested in. How many of them are laterals? How many of them lateraled in the past 1-2 years? Did they lateral from another biglaw firm or a place that you've never heard of? Your results might not give you the full picture because I personally know ~10 stealthed associates who are still on the website, but it could give you a better sense of whether or not the group has a tendency to overhire/overfire.

[Anonymous User]

How does someone get black balled from a market and how do you know they’re getting hired despite that?

Multiple incidents at multiple firms leading to moving firms in a year or less multiple times. Stuff like that generally makes you nigh unhireable (what I would call blackballed, because recruiters, which firms will lean on, keep a decently detailed database on candidates, their viability and any potential issues) but it looks like Goodwin was desperate.

If someone has 4-6 firms on their resume and has been an associate for 4-6 years, it’s not a good look. Still able to hop to Goodwin despite that, so kudos to them.

[Anonymous User]

Some thoughts from a Goodwin associate.

1. Our mid year exits are always March 31 for people with performance issues. I think the firm (understandably) overreacted and cut deeper than they should have this year. But I also think a lot of numbers posted on here are flat out made up.

2. There are a couple people I know about that were let go that surprised me, but the vast majority that I know of were people who had abysmal reviews and weren’t hitting hours even in good times (due to partners and seniors not wanting to work with them). Even the couple that surprised me were reaching the end of their development line, although seeing how busy we are now, we could have used them (hence demand for laterals).

3. I can’t speak to laterals, but the firm is a great place to work. Shitty partners are very few and far between (I’m a senior associate and have only 2 I’ve blackballed) and senior associates were never shitty to me when I was junior or mid level. People are very understanding of life obstacles and do a good job putting work in balance when needed.

4. The firm really wants like 2000-2250 hours out of corp associates. Anything above usually gets a talking to, anything below is probably ok within reason, but isn’t helpful if you want to make partner.

[Anonymous User]

3. I can’t speak to laterals, but the firm is a great place to work. Shitty partners are very few and far between (I’m a senior associate and have only 2 I’ve blackballed) and senior associates were never shitty to me when I was junior or mid level. People are very understanding of life obstacles and do a good job putting work in balance when needed.

Holdup, you can do this in biglaw?

[SFSpartan]

Goodwin midlevel tech/VC associate here. It's good to hear that we are hiring laterals, because our tech practice is insanely busy. I'm annualizing at 2700.

The people that we laid off were either on the East Coast in practices that aren't/weren't busy, or were associates that were astonishingly bad at their jobs.

If you want to chat about Goodwin, happy to set up a throwaway account or something.

Any idea how Goodwin compares to Foley Hoag, especially in private funds/PE and vc/ec? Exit options?

My guess is that Goodwin holds the edge, but that Foley is a nicer place to work. Any credence to this view?

This is a question that is probably better answered by an East Coast associate. In SV we are head and shoulders above Foley, but can't really speak to the Boston legal market.

[tyrant_flycatcher]

Some thoughts from a Goodwin associate.

1. Our mid year exits are always March 31 for people with performance issues. I think the firm (understandably) overreacted and cut deeper than they should have this year. But I also think a lot of numbers posted on here are flat out made up.

This is not a thing at my firm or other firms I know of. Natural attrition should take care of any oversupply of attorneys. From time to time I have heard about attorneys being asked to leave due to bad work—but an annual, systematic culling? I kinda doubt there are that many juniors with actual performance problems and this is your firm’s way of keeping the books tight and rightsizing every year. Maybe I just don’t realize when someone has been asked to leave, because who would be open about that...

[Anonymous User]

Some thoughts from a Goodwin associate.

1. Our mid year exits are always March 31 for people with performance issues. I think the firm (understandably) overreacted and cut deeper than they should have this year. But I also think a lot of numbers posted on here are flat out made up.

This is not a thing at my firm or other firms I know of. Natural attrition should take care of any oversupply of attorneys. From time to time I have heard about attorneys being asked to leave due to bad work—but an annual, systematic culling? I kinda doubt there are that many juniors with actual performance problems and this is your firm’s way of keeping the books tight and rightsizing every year. Maybe I just don’t realize when someone has been asked to leave, because who would be open about that...

I’m guessing the latter, not really knowing where you work. Unless you’re in a small office, there’s just no way around it. It’s unrealistic to think associates will self-trim.

[Anonymous User]

Goodwin midlevel tech/VC associate here. It's good to hear that we are hiring laterals, because our tech practice is insanely busy. I'm annualizing at 2700.

The people that we laid off were either on the East Coast in practices that aren't/weren't busy, or were associates that were astonishingly bad at their jobs.

If you want to chat about Goodwin, happy to set up a throwaway account or something.

Any idea how Goodwin compares to Foley Hoag, especially in private funds/PE and vc/ec? Exit options?

My guess is that Goodwin holds the edge, but that Foley is a nicer place to work. Any credence to this view?

This is a question that is probably better answered by an East Coast associate. In SV we are head and shoulders above Foley, but can't really speak to the Boston legal market.

Foley isn’t really a competitor on the east coast. They have some inroads with a couple incubators that feeds them good work though.

[Anonymous User]

Another Goodwin corporate associate chiming in.

Honestly I am pretty surprised by the degree of either cheerleading or lack of awareness from other Goodwin associates.

First off what exactly is the basis for saying that only those with performance issues were affected? I know several laid off associates who had good hours and a history of positive performance reviews. Not only is it speculation to say that only people with performance reviews were affected. It also directly contradicts several first hand accounts. Those posters saying it was only with performance issues are not trying to square that.

To echo what another person has said, consider what it means that this apparently happens every year and this year it was apparently very deep. Other big law firms do not need to push out associates in this harsh way.

Second what is the basis for saying that the numbers posted here are wildly inflated? The posters being very positive about Goodwin again don't say what the real number is and I suspect that's because they do not actually know.

In terms of whether or not to lateral what I would say is to carefully consider your options. Do the other firms you are looking at have any reported history of similar behavior to what has been reported about Goodwin?

[Anonymous User]

Circa 2015 (so during the good time), Goodwin litigation associates said that the firm conducted a layoff once their big case settled. It seems like Goodwin is willing to conduct layoffs frequently based on the firm's perceived need, without a regard to associates' well-being or performance.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks everyone for your insightful responses. Based on what I'm seeing here, I think I'm going to stay where I am. I don't want to say too much, but Goodwin is the only lateral offer I currently have. I don't hate my firm so I can afford to wait for another opportunity. I'd like to lateral within the next year, but I don't want to risk lateraling over only to be laid off right away.

Also can anyone offer any insight into the bonus structure? It seems like as long as we hit our hours requirement we'll get at least market. Yet I saw in another thread that associates get held back a class year or get a below-market/no bonus.

[Anonymous User]

Anon b/c was an SA here this summer. Should I be concerned that the last two SA classes have been huge? I know this thread is about laterals, but if there's not enough work in a particular office, what happens to first and second-year juniors?

[Anonymous User]

Everyone that hits hours has gotten a market bonus plus there are bumps based on hours and performance. Firm leadership has also been very open that goodwin will follow the market again this year.

I’m surprised by the negative comments. Maybe it’s different in other practice groups, but tech, life sciences and more recently private equity have all been incredibly busy. There will be plenty of work for junior associates to go around in those areas unless the economy completely tanks.

I can’t speak for other practice groups, but I don’t think anyone in our group was surprised by the few that were let go in the spring.

[Anonymous User]

Everyone that hits hours has gotten a market bonus plus there are bumps based on hours and performance. Firm leadership has also been very open that goodwin will follow the market again this year.

I’m surprised by the negative comments. Maybe it’s different in other practice groups, but tech, life sciences and more recently private equity have all been incredibly busy. There will be plenty of work for junior associates to go around in those areas unless the economy completely tanks.

I can’t speak for other practice groups, but I don’t think anyone in our group was surprised by the few that were let go in the spring.

By the "few" that were let go this year? What is your basis for saying that the number of stealthed associates is only a "few"?

[Anonymous User]

Is Goodwin the only market firm that regularly just lets associates go twice a year? I’m considering lateraling soon, and I don’t want to get shafted come next spring.

If this is regular, then fine. But I have never heard of it happening before aside from Goodwin.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks everyone for your insightful responses. Based on what I'm seeing here, I think I'm going to stay where I am. I don't want to say too much, but Goodwin is the only lateral offer I currently have. I don't hate my firm so I can afford to wait for another opportunity. I'd like to lateral within the next year, but I don't want to risk lateraling over only to be laid off right away.

Also can anyone offer any insight into the bonus structure? It seems like as long as we hit our hours requirement we'll get at least market. Yet I saw in another thread that associates get held back a class year or get a below-market/no bonus.

Bonus structure is not as clear cut as it seems. There is a fairly opaque performance factor that ties into your actual bonus (and based on how you score, you get a percentage of the market rate bonus). Of the associates who qualify for a bonus, some associates get more than the market rate, some get the market rate, and some get below the market rate. I'm not sure of the percentages between each of the tiers, but it varies enough such that in January of each year, all associates receive a piece of paper noting their class year for the next year and the amount of their bonus. If bonuses were almost all at the market rate, I'm not sure why that system would be necessary.