Cold Offers

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Cold Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:34 pm

Do any 2L SAs who've heard about offers think they got one of these? Asking for a friend... (Anon because post history will out me as a 2L SA)

gowon28744

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Re: Cold Offers

Post by gowon28744 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:54 pm

It should be easy to tell...does your friend want to share any details?

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Re: Cold Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:16 pm

You would definitely know if you were getting cold-offered. From what I've heard, whoever does your exit interview will tell you that your performance was subpar and that, while they're giving you an offer, they really think you should consider going elsewhere.

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Re: Cold Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:17 pm

gowon28744 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:54 pm
It should be easy to tell...does your friend want to share any details?
V100, secondary market. All SAs were given offers but individual office has stated numerous times that they overhired. Suspicious number of departures firmwide (including offices in major markets) since March.

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Re: Cold Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:16 pm
You would definitely know if you were getting cold-offered. From what I've heard, whoever does your exit interview will tell you that your performance was subpar and that, while they're giving you an offer, they really think you should consider going elsewhere.
Yes. Previously on hiring committee for my office. It's usually fairly direct, e.g., were giving you an offer but really think you'd be better off elsewhere, etc.

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Re: Cold Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:27 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:16 pm
You would definitely know if you were getting cold-offered. From what I've heard, whoever does your exit interview will tell you that your performance was subpar and that, while they're giving you an offer, they really think you should consider going elsewhere.
Yes. Previously on hiring committee for my office. It's usually fairly direct, e.g., were giving you an offer but really think you'd be better off elsewhere, etc.
Does this happen fairly frequently in your office? It was more like we like all of you but we overhired and just don't have the hours.

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Re: Cold Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:32 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:27 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:16 pm
You would definitely know if you were getting cold-offered. From what I've heard, whoever does your exit interview will tell you that your performance was subpar and that, while they're giving you an offer, they really think you should consider going elsewhere.
Yes. Previously on hiring committee for my office. It's usually fairly direct, e.g., were giving you an offer but really think you'd be better off elsewhere, etc.
Does this happen fairly frequently in your office? It was more like we like all of you but we overhired and just don't have the hours.
First anon here. AFAIK it has only happened a handful of times, usually for a summer who clearly wasn't taking the job seriously and habitually dropped the ball on things. Really all we expected from summers was to put a modest amount of effort into their work and to be responsive.

If I had to guess, they made the comment about overhiring for optics reasons. Even though cold-offers don't count against a firm's 100% offer rate, word still gets around and it can hurt the firm during OCI later. By making this comment, I think the firm is hoping that some people look for other opportunities of their own accord and don't accept the offer to return.

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Wild Card

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Re: Cold Offers

Post by Wild Card » Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:34 pm

What a sleazy and sneaky way to keep the figure at 100%.

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Re: Cold Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:32 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:27 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:16 pm
You would definitely know if you were getting cold-offered. From what I've heard, whoever does your exit interview will tell you that your performance was subpar and that, while they're giving you an offer, they really think you should consider going elsewhere.
Yes. Previously on hiring committee for my office. It's usually fairly direct, e.g., were giving you an offer but really think you'd be better off elsewhere, etc.
Does this happen fairly frequently in your office? It was more like we like all of you but we overhired and just don't have the hours.
Hiring committee anon:

No, cold offers don't happen that frequently. If anything they are falling out of favor as firms are more ok with the occasional no-offer and have gotten burned with cold offers in the past.

If it was a generic comment to a bunch of summers, or something you just overheard in passing, I wouldn't worry about it. If it was told to you specifically (esp. at end of summer review or when they gave you offer), I'd be more concerned. It doesn't sound like a true cold offer regardless, but if it was directed at you then it's more like a . . . warm offer.

FWIW, I will say that your summer reputation follows you. If you were perceived as the weakest summer and the firm is slow when you join, you will be at a considerable disadvantage. Some can overcome that, but many don't.

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Re: Cold Offers

Post by enibs » Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:04 am

Wild Card wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:34 pm
What a sleazy and sneaky way to keep the figure at 100%.
That’s one way of looking at it. The other way of looking at it is that the firm is being compassionate and doesn’t want to tank a student’s career before it gets started by giving a no offer. The fact is that there’s a commonality of interest here. Yes, the firm is happy to report a 100% offer rate. But trust me, the summer associate would MUCH rather get a cold offer than a no offer.

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Re: Cold Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:47 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:40 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:32 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:27 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:16 pm
You would definitely know if you were getting cold-offered. From what I've heard, whoever does your exit interview will tell you that your performance was subpar and that, while they're giving you an offer, they really think you should consider going elsewhere.
Yes. Previously on hiring committee for my office. It's usually fairly direct, e.g., were giving you an offer but really think you'd be better off elsewhere, etc.
Does this happen fairly frequently in your office? It was more like we like all of you but we overhired and just don't have the hours.
Hiring committee anon:

No, cold offers don't happen that frequently. If anything they are falling out of favor as firms are more ok with the occasional no-offer and have gotten burned with cold offers in the past.

If it was a generic comment to a bunch of summers, or something you just overheard in passing, I wouldn't worry about it. If it was told to you specifically (esp. at end of summer review or when they gave you offer), I'd be more concerned. It doesn't sound like a true cold offer regardless, but if it was directed at you then it's more like a . . . warm offer.

FWIW, I will say that your summer reputation follows you. If you were perceived as the weakest summer and the firm is slow when you join, you will be at a considerable disadvantage. Some can overcome that, but many don't.
OP here, thanks. This is helpful. Not directed at me but to my unprecedentedly large class in a growing satellite office. Don't think anyone developed a reputation as the weakest summer, and my exit interview was very positive. Would you say they actually expect us to find other jobs in this economy? That seems like asking for a lot.

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Re: Cold Offers

Post by nixy » Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:10 am

I cant say whether they *expect* you to, but I would imagine that the comment means they would appreciate you doing so, for the same reason you don't want to - the economy. Maybe by the time you start things will have rebounded and it will all be fine. But it sounds to me like they're saying they like you all and they want you all and you all can start working for them at whatever future date, but the economy means they may not have work for you when that happens, so fair warning about what might happen.

(This is different from a cold offer in that a cold offer is personal - "we're giving you, anon poster, an offer, but we think you, anon poster, specifically, will not really do well here [meaning we don't want *you* because we don't like your work/personality, but we want to keep our 100% offer rate]" - whereas the comment that was made here is just a general state of affairs made to all the SAs and has nothing to do with your ability. TBF, cold offers aren't always *really* about ability either, they could be an excuse for a financial issue, but they still have to come up with a reason to pick someone to give the cold offer to.)

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Re: Cold Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:56 pm

Would one know if they were the weakest (or even a subpar) summer associate? I got good reviews (all the feedback I got ranged from “excellent” to “very good,” and perhaps one or two just “good” ratings) but I feel like they treated me with kid gloves and don’t really know if I was a particularly good or meh summer

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Re: Cold Offers

Post by cavalier1138 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:56 pm
Would one know if they were the weakest (or even a subpar) summer associate? I got very strong reviews but I feel like they treated me with kid gloves and don’t really know if I was a particularly good or meh summer
You would have been made aware if your work was subpar. Yes, you're basically treated with "kid gloves," because the expectations are relatively low. But if you dropped the ball on an assignment, the assigning attorney(s) would let you know and/or it would come up in your final eval.

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Re: Cold Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:28 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:00 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:56 pm
Would one know if they were the weakest (or even a subpar) summer associate? I got very strong reviews but I feel like they treated me with kid gloves and don’t really know if I was a particularly good or meh summer
You would have been made aware if your work was subpar. Yes, you're basically treated with "kid gloves," because the expectations are relatively low. But if you dropped the ball on an assignment, the assigning attorney(s) would let you know and/or it would come up in your final eval.
Yes. Ive managed bad summers, and it’s a pain in the ass. Firm had me document, in pretty significant detail, all of my feedback so they could keep a record. They definitely provided this info to the summers during their reviews.

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Re: Cold Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:52 am

enibs wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:04 am
That’s one way of looking at it. The other way of looking at it is that the firm is being compassionate and doesn’t want to tank a student’s career before it gets started by giving a no offer. The fact is that there’s a commonality of interest here. Yes, the firm is happy to report a 100% offer rate. But trust me, the summer associate would MUCH rather get a cold offer than a no offer.
Yeah. I was no-offered during the Great Recession for Great Recession reasons, and let me tell you, I really, really would've preferred a cold offer over "yes, we know all of your prior reviews were great, but now we're going to manufacture a fake performance-based reason to get rid of you and five other summer associates, now fuck off, and if anybody calls us we're definitely going to stick to the you-were-trash story."

(Fun fact: years later, the firm that did this trolled linkedin for anybody listing the firm on their history, then invited them all to the firm's "alumni" group. Institutional memory! Go die in a fire. No, I'm not bitter.)

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Re: Cold Offers

Post by JusticeJackson » Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:52 am
(Fun fact: years later, the firm that did this trolled linkedin for anybody listing the firm on their history, then invited them all to the firm's "alumni" group. Institutional memory! Go die in a fire. No, I'm not bitter.)
I wonder if starting an alumni group has ever once worked out. I get they presume some former lawyer might eventually be in house or otherwise in a position to direct work. But we all no longer work for your firm for a reason.

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Re: Cold Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:14 pm

OP here. Thanks for your thoughts, everyone. I got the offer letter and it expires in October. Is the consensus of this board that I should mass mail and reach out to networking contacts before accepting? It just seems strange because I talked to other SAs who say they're going to accept right away and pray that the economy returns. I don't want the firm holding it against me if I accept but they remember I was the last one to do so (I know I'd be doing what they hinted to do, but still).

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Re: Cold Offers

Post by nixy » Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:05 pm

No one is going to know, let alone care, if you're the last person to accept your offer. Someone has to be the last person to accept. It doesn't have anything to do with anything (it's a business relationship, not personal).

That said, you can also accept, keep looking for a job, and renege if you get something you like better. At worst, it burns bridges with the original firm, but as long as you're gracious, it doesn't even really have to do that (especially under these circumstances when they're worrying about having enough work to go around).

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Re: Cold Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:09 am

nixy wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:05 pm
No one is going to know, let alone care, if you're the last person to accept your offer. Someone has to be the last person to accept. It doesn't have anything to do with anything (it's a business relationship, not personal).

That said, you can also accept, keep looking for a job, and renege if you get something you like better. At worst, it burns bridges with the original firm, but as long as you're gracious, it doesn't even really have to do that (especially under these circumstances when they're worrying about having enough work to go around).

My office would care if OP took until October to accept. We're a 100% offer firm / don't allow splitting and most people accept same day. I think we leave the offer open for however long we have to under NALP but we expect people to accept quickly.

We have a smaller summer program so not a good look to shop around for weeks before accepting. Recruiting will probably send around emails to all the lawyers in the office letting them know who hasn't accepted yet. It's good intentioned - they just want attorneys to reach out to seal the deal. But it will stick out if it is just your name on that list and everyone will know what you are doing.

If it were me, I would accept the offer and then shop around. Sounds like your firm wants you to do that anyways. But if you don't find anything, probably better to have accepted your offer quickly so you don't draw any extra attention to yourself.

But YMMV with different firms of course. If the program is large (>20), people probably won't notice if you wait. Or if your firm allows splitting, people would expect you to wait until you hear back from the other firm and maybe take some time to consider both offers.

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Re: Cold Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:30 pm

It's easy to tell if you got a cold offer. There won't be a mystery. At my SA, last year in the before times, they gave out 2 cold offers to a 100+ person class. They were for pretty good reasons though. One guy wrote a really stupid and disrespectful email to a partner, and the other guy was meth related.

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Re: Cold Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:09 am
nixy wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:05 pm
No one is going to know, let alone care, if you're the last person to accept your offer. Someone has to be the last person to accept. It doesn't have anything to do with anything (it's a business relationship, not personal).

That said, you can also accept, keep looking for a job, and renege if you get something you like better. At worst, it burns bridges with the original firm, but as long as you're gracious, it doesn't even really have to do that (especially under these circumstances when they're worrying about having enough work to go around).

My office would care if OP took until October to accept. We're a 100% offer firm / don't allow splitting and most people accept same day. I think we leave the offer open for however long we have to under NALP but we expect people to accept quickly.

We have a smaller summer program so not a good look to shop around for weeks before accepting. Recruiting will probably send around emails to all the lawyers in the office letting them know who hasn't accepted yet. It's good intentioned - they just want attorneys to reach out to seal the deal. But it will stick out if it is just your name on that list and everyone will know what you are doing.

If it were me, I would accept the offer and then shop around. Sounds like your firm wants you to do that anyways. But if you don't find anything, probably better to have accepted your offer quickly so you don't draw any extra attention to yourself.

But YMMV with different firms of course. If the program is large (>20), people probably won't notice if you wait. Or if your firm allows splitting, people would expect you to wait until you hear back from the other firm and maybe take some time to consider both offers.
OP. Thanks, both. Anon, what you describe is actually exactly on point regarding my main concern. While our satellite office is big for a satellite in our market, it is still small enough that I can foresee a single name sticking out and being remembered. If only because our office takes a lot of laterals and they stick around as associates for a while so I expect the same people who see my name on the slow to accept list will see me again if I start there next year.

As an update: I put out feelers to firms that have hired 3Ls in the past and they implied that they will not be considering us until January. So I guess, consistent with both your comments, in this economy reneging will not be seen as badly as it would otherwise?

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Re: Cold Offers

Post by JusticeSquee » Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:30 pm
It's easy to tell if you got a cold offer. There won't be a mystery. At my SA, last year in the before times, they gave out 2 cold offers to a 100+ person class. They were for pretty good reasons though. One guy wrote a really stupid and disrespectful email to a partner, and the other guy was meth related.
Meth!? Was he cooking it in his office?

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Re: Cold Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:37 am

OP here. Contact at the firm just reached out basically asking why I haven't accepted yet and generally "checking in." Have not accepted offer yet but have interviews at other firms in our secondary market. It's a big secondary so not sure about my SA firm finding out or if they'd even be offended if they did. Should I accept and possibly renege? Seems like bad form, but if the other interviews don't pan out, I probably shouldn't be the last person in our smallish class to accept.

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Re: Cold Offers

Post by trebekismyhero » Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:49 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:37 am
OP here. Contact at the firm just reached out basically asking why I haven't accepted yet and generally "checking in." Have not accepted offer yet but have interviews at other firms in our secondary market. It's a big secondary so not sure about my SA firm finding out or if they'd even be offended if they did. Should I accept and possibly renege? Seems like bad form, but if the other interviews don't pan out, I probably shouldn't be the last person in our smallish class to accept.

Absolutely accept, should have done it a couple weeks ago. As others said you don't want to stick out. Accept and keep applying. You're not going to get hired at another firm in the next few weeks anyway. Just keep applying and if you get something you can renege. The firm will not care since that is almost certainly what they want you to do

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