Major vs Secondary Market Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hi all. I am a rising 2L at a T5-T10 and would rather work in a secondary market. Will likely be just above median GPA by the time that we have 2021 OCIs. I would rather work in the secondary market that I came from (that is in a different region) but will take any secondary market that pays $170-190 before I took a major market. (cost of living, don't really care about major markets, and just more comfortable in a not so huge city). What do you think my odds are? Is it that competitive in secondary markets? Thanks!

[nixy]

Depends what you mean by secondary markets, but often they're very hard to break into unless you have pre-existing ties. And often if the COL is significantly lower, they're not going to pay $170-190k.

[Anonymous User]

Depends what you mean by secondary markets, but often they're very hard to break into unless you have pre-existing ties. And often if the COL is significantly lower, they're not going to pay $170-190k.

Basically anything that’s not NYU or DC on the east coast. Raleigh, Philly, Detroit, etc.

[soft blue]

I'm familiar with the Detroit legal market. You 1.) won't be making market there and 2.) will have a very hard time getting in without any ties to the area. Even out-of-staters who go to Michigan have trouble; the firms simply do not believe that you will want to live in metro Detroit through your midlevel years.

Anecdotally, from friends who tried to break into secondary markets (Phoenix, St. Louis, Minneapolis) it's tricky from a t14 for that reason, even with solid ties. The idea that you could waltz in and be like "yeah, I'm interviewing here for the CoL; I'm also looking at [five other cities]" and get an offer is not consistent with reality. Unless you can compelling answer why you want to work in that region, you're not a viable candidate.

I think maybe your best play is working at the Wilmington firms and living in Philly? IIRC at least Skadden DE pays market (someone else please confirm) and I know multiple people at Wilmington firms who just do that commute. I think they are also ties-sensitive, though.

[ksm6969]

I think Texas cities are the only secondary markets where it is standard for firms to pay 170k+ (Not sure about Delaware). Other cities will have maybe a few firms paying that much, but they are generally satellite offices of NY firms , so do your research on what that means. There’s tons of threads about salaries in secondary markets if you search. General wisdom on TLS (so take it w a grain of salt) is that outside of like HYS, a t14 law school won’t carry that much weight (as in people in Charlotte are not going to place a huge amount of weight on a Cornell degree over a UNC degree or whatever). No idea if true.

[papermateflair]

I think it will be hard to just target a bunch of secondary markets without ties, but for the one where you do have ties you should network network network and hustle hard to land something there, and then apply more broadly to other cities (yes, including DC/NY). If there's a close secondary market to your home market, focus there too. Keep in mind that secondary markets hire smaller classes AND look at ties for those they do hire, so having great credentials doesn't always take you as far as it does in big cities. I'd probably target (1) secondary market with ties (2) closest primary market (3) secondary markets closest to your main one (4) other primary markets (5) random secondary markets.

[Anonymous User]

I think Texas cities are the only secondary markets where it is standard for firms to pay 170k+ (Not sure about Delaware). Other cities will have maybe a few firms paying that much, but they are generally satellite offices of NY firms , so do your research on what that means. There’s tons of threads about salaries in secondary markets if you search. General wisdom on TLS (so take it w a grain of salt) is that outside of like HYS, a t14 law school won’t carry that much weight (as in people in Charlotte are not going to place a huge amount of weight on a Cornell degree over a UNC degree or whatever). No idea if true.

Summered (1L) with a big TX firm this summer in Houston and almost every SA had Texas ties in some way shape or form. Almost all were from Texas or going to UT/UH. I've heard that in the past few years, when the market was hot, it was not that difficult to get Texas from your position (T10 ~median without ties.) I certainly wouldn't wager on that being the case during January interviewing this year without some sort of a strong (NYNYNYNY) backup plan, especially since the big players in the market hire a good number of 1L SAs that are at least somewhat likely to return and take up spots.

[Anonymous User]

I think Texas cities are the only secondary markets where it is standard for firms to pay 170k+ (Not sure about Delaware). Other cities will have maybe a few firms paying that much, but they are generally satellite offices of NY firms , so do your research on what that means. There’s tons of threads about salaries in secondary markets if you search. General wisdom on TLS (so take it w a grain of salt) is that outside of like HYS, a t14 law school won’t carry that much weight (as in people in Charlotte are not going to place a huge amount of weight on a Cornell degree over a UNC degree or whatever). No idea if true.

Summered (1L) with a big TX firm this summer in Houston and almost every SA had Texas ties in some way shape or form. Almost all were from Texas or going to UT/UH. I've heard that in the past few years, when the market was hot, it was not that difficult to get Texas from your position (T10 ~median without ties.) I certainly wouldn't wager on that being the case during January interviewing this year without some sort of a strong (NYNYNYNY) backup plan, especially since the big players in the market hire a good number of 1L SAs that are at least somewhat likely to return and take up spots.

The secondary market that I want that is where I am from has one school in the city that is a T1 (40-50). How hard would it be to crack that market? I would be going to a school on the East Coast with the long-term goal of moving back.

[workhard]

Secondary markets are nice in theory. The COL is lower and the potential for a great work-life balance are perks. Unless you have childhood ties or are extremely good looking, you will not break in. Use LinkedIn to your advantage.

[UnfrozenCaveman]

Problem with secondary markets, in addition to the things already mentioned, is that there just aren't as many positions. It's a numbers game.

[soft blue]

Unless you have childhood ties or are extremely good looking, you will not break in.

This is overstating things. You don't need to have perfect ties to a region. You need ties sufficient to prove that you're going to be there for the long haul, not jumping out in 2-4 years. I know people who went to college somewhere, had their significant others from a region, worked between college and law school in a place, etc.

[nealric]

There's big difference between markets. Texas or Chicago will be very different from Minneapolis in terms of biglaw prospects. The smaller the market, the more insular it tends to be.

[Lacepiece23]

Secondary markets are overrated. I made my decision when biglaw started at 160 and I was set to make like 145. Sounded great. Then biglaw underwent two raises and doubled bonuses. My pay remained compressed.

I worked at the HQ so the expectations were every bit as high as a v50 in NYC. I never got to do easy work like doc review because our clients couldn’t afford it. And my bills were scrutinized to death. So, we had to be way more efficient.

I think I would have worked less in NYC for more money. Or at least not worked as hard. But YMMV. I know there’s a lot of Biglaw shops where I would’ve been worse off.

[Anonymous User]

OP, I practice in Pittsburgh biglaw and am familiar with a few other smaller markets—e.g., Cleveland, Columbus, etc.

These types of midwestern smaller cities do care about your connection to the city, but it’s not like you had to go to high school there. About a third of our recruits come from local law schools, with the rest from mostly T-14 with ties.

If you’re looking for big law in these secondary markets, you’ll find firms that start at 170+. COL is also very low—most associates buy houses by year 2/3.

But also note if it’s a big law firm, you’re still going to be billing at least 2k hours. You’ll just be able to go home to finish your work instead of ordering Seamless. Cant really speak for midlaw, but my understanding is definitely lower hours but way less pay as well.

ETA: anon because Pittsburgh big law is very small

[Lacepiece23]

OP, I practice in Pittsburgh biglaw and am familiar with a few other smaller markets—e.g., Cleveland, Columbus, etc.

These types of midwestern smaller cities do care about your connection to the city, but it’s not like you had to go to high school there. About a third of our recruits come from local law schools, with the rest from mostly T-14 with ties.

If you’re looking for big law in these secondary markets, you’ll find firms that start at 170+. COL is also very low—most associates buy houses by year 2/3.

But also note if it’s a big law firm, you’re still going to be billing at least 2k hours. You’ll just be able to go home to finish your work instead of ordering Seamless. Cant really speak for midlaw, but my understanding is definitely lower hours but way less pay as well.

ETA: anon because Pittsburgh big law is very small

Can you pm me?

[Iowahawk]

OP, I practice in Pittsburgh biglaw and am familiar with a few other smaller markets—e.g., Cleveland, Columbus, etc.

These types of midwestern smaller cities do care about your connection to the city, but it’s not like you had to go to high school there. About a third of our recruits come from local law schools, with the rest from mostly T-14 with ties.

If you’re looking for big law in these secondary markets, you’ll find firms that start at 170+. COL is also very low—most associates buy houses by year 2/3.

But also note if it’s a big law firm, you’re still going to be billing at least 2k hours. You’ll just be able to go home to finish your work instead of ordering Seamless. Cant really speak for midlaw, but my understanding is definitely lower hours but way less pay as well.

ETA: anon because Pittsburgh big law is very small

Are there any firms in Midwestern secondaries that pay 170 (or even 165) besides Jones Day? I don’t know all of them but I see that Reed Smith pays only 145 in Pittsburgh which makes me skeptical that any do there. That’s not saying that non-JD Midwestern secondaries are bad ideas—Jones Day isn’t top dog in any of them west of Ohio, has its own problems, and salaries much lower than its still beat COL-adjusted biglaw market—but “you’ll find firms that start at 170+” strikes me as an exaggeration.

[Reese1]

OP, I practice in Pittsburgh biglaw and am familiar with a few other smaller markets—e.g., Cleveland, Columbus, etc.

These types of midwestern smaller cities do care about your connection to the city, but it’s not like you had to go to high school there. About a third of our recruits come from local law schools, with the rest from mostly T-14 with ties.

If you’re looking for big law in these secondary markets, you’ll find firms that start at 170+. COL is also very low—most associates buy houses by year 2/3.

But also note if it’s a big law firm, you’re still going to be billing at least 2k hours. You’ll just be able to go home to finish your work instead of ordering Seamless. Cant really speak for midlaw, but my understanding is definitely lower hours but way less pay as well.

ETA: anon because Pittsburgh big law is very small

Are there any firms in Midwestern secondaries that pay 170 (or even 165) besides Jones Day? I don’t know all of them but I see that Reed Smith pays only 145 in Pittsburgh which makes me skeptical that any do there. That’s not saying that non-JD Midwestern secondaries are bad ideas—Jones Day isn’t top dog in any of them west of Ohio, has its own problems, and salaries much lower than its still beat COL-adjusted biglaw market—but “you’ll find firms that start at 170+” strikes me as an exaggeration.

I think Foley and Lardner in Milwaukee pays somewhere around 170k. They were at 160k a few years ago.

[Faustian89]

Satellite associates are more likely to get axed when the mothership hoards work during contractionary periods, quality of matters is equal to or less than major market, pay is often pretty compressed. Hours/facetime seem less intense but WFH at night for ~2 hours seems normal. You’ll have more free weekends in a comparatively boring metro. Given that secondary markets/offices are often lower leveraged, while you may gain more early hands on experience this makes it difficult to evade work from mouthbreathing partners and partners seem to park the car=decreased odds of partnership.

[Iowahawk]

OP, I practice in Pittsburgh biglaw and am familiar with a few other smaller markets—e.g., Cleveland, Columbus, etc.

These types of midwestern smaller cities do care about your connection to the city, but it’s not like you had to go to high school there. About a third of our recruits come from local law schools, with the rest from mostly T-14 with ties.

If you’re looking for big law in these secondary markets, you’ll find firms that start at 170+. COL is also very low—most associates buy houses by year 2/3.

But also note if it’s a big law firm, you’re still going to be billing at least 2k hours. You’ll just be able to go home to finish your work instead of ordering Seamless. Cant really speak for midlaw, but my understanding is definitely lower hours but way less pay as well.

ETA: anon because Pittsburgh big law is very small

Are there any firms in Midwestern secondaries that pay 170 (or even 165) besides Jones Day? I don’t know all of them but I see that Reed Smith pays only 145 in Pittsburgh which makes me skeptical that any do there. That’s not saying that non-JD Midwestern secondaries are bad ideas—Jones Day isn’t top dog in any of them west of Ohio, has its own problems, and salaries much lower than its still beat COL-adjusted biglaw market—but “you’ll find firms that start at 170+” strikes me as an exaggeration.

I think Foley and Lardner in Milwaukee pays somewhere around 170k. They were at 160k a few years ago.

Foley's still at 160 in MKE and Detroit and 155 in Madison. I believe that that's the top of the market by quite a bit in both of the Wisconsin markets.

Afaik the top-paying firms in each Midwestern secondary are *something* like:
Cincinnati: Jones Day (170)
Cleveland: Jones Day (170)
Columbus: Jones Day (170)
Des Moines: Belin McCormick (150)
Detroit: Jones Day (170)
Indianapolis: Faegre (120)
Kansas City: Bryan Cave/Polsinelli (135)
Madison: Foley (155)
Milwaukee: Foley (160)
Minneapolis: Dorsey/Faegre (140) (not counting JD's small outpost)
Omaha: Stinson (125)
Pittsburgh: Jones Day (180)
St. Louis: Bryan Cave/Lewis Rice/Norton Rose Fulbright/Thompson Coburn (140)
Wichita: Foulston (100)

A couple of these are probably topped by lit boutiques and such (and I don't actually know every market's dynamics), but it makes clear that JD is a pretty big outlier.

Also note that basically all of these aren't really satellites, but major offices of Midwest-focused firms.

[Anonymous User]

OP, I practice in Pittsburgh biglaw and am familiar with a few other smaller markets—e.g., Cleveland, Columbus, etc.

These types of midwestern smaller cities do care about your connection to the city, but it’s not like you had to go to high school there. About a third of our recruits come from local law schools, with the rest from mostly T-14 with ties.

If you’re looking for big law in these secondary markets, you’ll find firms that start at 170+. COL is also very low—most associates buy houses by year 2/3.

But also note if it’s a big law firm, you’re still going to be billing at least 2k hours. You’ll just be able to go home to finish your work instead of ordering Seamless. Cant really speak for midlaw, but my understanding is definitely lower hours but way less pay as well.

ETA: anon because Pittsburgh big law is very small

Are there any firms in Midwestern secondaries that pay 170 (or even 165) besides Jones Day? I don’t know all of them but I see that Reed Smith pays only 145 in Pittsburgh which makes me skeptical that any do there. That’s not saying that non-JD Midwestern secondaries are bad ideas—Jones Day isn’t top dog in any of them west of Ohio, has its own problems, and salaries much lower than its still beat COL-adjusted biglaw market—but “you’ll find firms that start at 170+” strikes me as an exaggeration.

Morgan Lewis pays NYC market in Pgh. It’s office is only 35 attorneys or so but that’s a killing. Just as an example besides JD

[2013]

Not midwest, but the following are also market:

Atlanta
Paul Hastings

Miami:
White & Case
Weil
Boies
Morgan Lewis
McDermott

There are a few more market firms in Miami I just am not thinking of right now. FL has no state tax like Tx, so your 190k+ goes a long way. Not quite as affordable as a place like Pittsburgh, though.

[Iowahawk]

I wonder why Pittsburgh salaries seem to be a bit higher than elsewhere in the "Midwest," including on JD's scale. The calculators I'm looking at say its cost of living is cheaper than Minneapolis and Madison and comparable to Detroit.

[wwwcol]

Not midwest, but the following are also market:

Atlanta
Paul Hastings

Miami:
White & Case
Weil
Boies
Morgan Lewis
McDermott

There are a few more market firms in Miami I just am not thinking of right now. FL has no state tax like Tx, so your 190k+ goes a long way. Not quite as affordable as a place like Pittsburgh, though.

for people looking at this list, your takeaway should be “you generally don’t get paid NYC market unless you work NYC hours.” All of these offices are varying degrees of sweat shop, garbage work, dumpster fire, or some combination of the above

[Lacepiece23]

I wonder why Pittsburgh salaries seem to be a bit higher than elsewhere in the "Midwest," including on JD's scale. The calculators I'm looking at say its cost of living is cheaper than Minneapolis and Madison and comparable to Detroit.

They are not. JD just skews everything. Remember, they don’t pay a bonus. So I think RS started at like 150k before the pandemic, you’d pull in like a 10k bonus making it 160k. The next year your salary would jump to like 160k and your bonus would be 25k. You overtake JD by your mid level years. Or at least it’s very close.

So realistically market in Pgh was like 150/160 with the exception of ML.