3 years out of law school - switch to tax law? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Is it still possible without getting an llm? I’m not interested in doing biglaw type deals and ultimately would like to be my own boss and maybe do small business tax / consulting (and some individual if necessary). Is anyone in that space here? I have no background except for having a CPA (maybe it will add credibility in attracting clients). I’m about 3 years out of law school. Did big law for 2.5 and am in-house now. My work experience (banking/cap markets) is not really helpful outside of the context of working at an investment bank or PE firm.

I know it won't be the financially smart decision but life is too short. I plan on leaving with a nice nest egg in maybe 1-2 years and am ok taking a giant pay cut to be my own boss in order to build something enjoyable over time.

How should I get started in developing skills in the next 2 years? I work only 45-50 hours a week so I have time on my hand outside of work to work on things.

[hulunetflix]

I think you probably can get your desired experience from mid-sized/small firms or some in-house legal departments. Challenge is that those places rarely take entry-level tax attorneys. They at least would want 1-2 years of experience because they don't want to teach the 101s of tax law. You can try to make your point that you know the 101s because you already are a CPA (and have experience in tax, if that's true).

Your CPA will be very helpful to you because smaller firms tend to want it.

I would also consider volunteer writing bar reports for the tax section of a bar association (for example, NYSBA, NYCBA). Tax professionals care about these. There's currently also pro bono need for nonprofits tax issues. These won't be relevant to your future practice, but it helps you open the door & shows interest.

If you don't want to do an LLM, some law schools offer online certificates - I honestly don't know if an LLM or even a certificate is really worth the money. For smaller firms, they care less about the paper credentials, but they need someone who doesn't need much training/overweight.

Hope it helps!

[nealric]

The issue is that biglaw type deals are the only ones were significant tax law issues come up on a routine basis. Small businesses rarely have tax needs beyond what their regular compliance folks offer.

You can certainly make a viable business doing work for small businesses and individuals, but you'd need to be prepared to do mostly return prep and audit representation. It wouldn't really be "tax law", but your JD could help you sell yourself over the garden variety CPA solo shop. I'd strongly recommend finding a smaller CPA firm to work for first before doing that, especially given that you don't have a strong tax background.

An LLM is mostly going to be geared towards large business issues, so won't really help someone looking to hang a shingle doing tax work. You won't learn much at all about return prep in an LLM. There are a small number of tiny tax boutiques and solos who do sophisticated large business work, but those folks tend to have a lot of Biglaw/Big4 tax experience and have already made a name for themselves/developed connections in the tax space.

[dabigchina]

I have no personal experience with this, but if you are looking at hanging your own shingle, wouldn't transitioning to T&E be the move? Enough lawyerly work, but plenty of small clients. Dual CPA/lawyer would prob look desirable to laymen who want this kind of work done.

See if you can get a job working with a T&E lawyer and then open up your own shingle? That being said, you'll still be a lawyer, which I understand the aversion to.

[Yugihoe]

I have no personal experience with this, but if you are looking at hanging your own shingle, wouldn't transitioning to T&E be the move? Enough lawyerly work, but plenty of small clients. Dual CPA/lawyer would prob look desirable to laymen who want this kind of work done.

See if you can get a job working with a T&E lawyer and then open up your own shingle? That being said, you'll still be a lawyer, which I understand the aversion to.

How does one get a job working with a T&E lawyer with no T&E experience and being out of lawschool already for several years?

[CanadianWolf]

Several of the responses in this thread are not in line with my knowledge & experience. However, as this thread is a revival of a June, 2020 post, any further discussion is unlikely to reach the OP as well as being too late for the original poster.

I do agree that trying to get an apprenticeship with a T&E attorney borders on the ridiculous in OP's situation.

[Anonymous User]

Several of the responses in this thread are not in line with my knowledge & experience. However, as this thread is a revival of a June, 2020 post, any further discussion is unlikely to reach the OP as well as being too late for the original poster.

I do agree that trying to get an apprenticeship with a T&E attorney borders on the ridiculous in OP's situation.

Care to expand? OP here - now 5 years out of law school and have a considerable nest egg. Have been transitioning out of my current banking role over the last 6 months, so looking to start something new. Have considerable time on my hand (only work 10-20 solid hours a week now).

[CanadianWolf]

First consideration should focus on the relevant state bar rules about housing a CPA & law practice together. While not permitted in almost all or all jurisdictions, the real issue is whether the relevant 4 or 5 bar rules are enforced in your jurisdiction.

Second, an LLM in taxation would be wise for one who has not practiced tax law (today, even CPAs often have an MST if they have not earned a JD / LLM (taxation).

With respect to the comment that an LLM in taxation is only concerned with biglaw type tax issues, this is inaccurate. Many tax LLM programs--probably most--focus on much more basic, mundane small practice type of subjects. Think California tax franchise board, University of Denver tax llm program, Villanova tax llm program, several in the Chicago area, etc. Also, many tax llm programs are available online for remote learning.

Since funds are plentiful & since you are only working part-time, I encourage you to work towards earning an LLM degree in taxation. Do you have a preferred location in mind for your future work / career ?

[Anonymous User]

First consideration should focus on the relevant state bar rules about housing a CPA & law practice together. While not permitted in almost all or all jurisdictions, the real issue is whether the relevant 4 or 5 bar rules are enforced in your jurisdiction.

Second, an LLM in taxation would be wise for one who has not practiced tax law (today, even CPAs often have an MST if they have not earned a JD / LLM (taxation).

With respect to the comment that an LLM in taxation is only concerned with biglaw type tax issues, this is inaccurate. Many tax LLM programs--probably most--focus on much more basic, mundane small practice type of subjects. Think California tax franchise board, University of Denver tax llm program, Villanova tax llm program, several in the Chicago area, etc. Also, many tax llm programs are available online for remote learning.

Since funds are plentiful & since you are only working part-time, I encourage you to work towards earning an LLM degree in taxation. Do you have a preferred location in mind for your future work / career ?

Thanks, this is helpful and I will need to look further into the CPA/JD bar issues. I am not interested in working for an employer and would be more focused on starting my own remote-only solo estate planning/tax practice. Although an LLM may be helpful in obtaining knowledge, seems like a costly way to go about it given that I don't actually need the paper certification or employment prospects. Seems like it would be more fruitful to find someone with a similar practice and work for lowcost to learn practice chops.

[CanadianWolf]

Do you want to do estate planning or a different area of tax ?

Might be difficult to become & remain competent in estate planning and other areas of tax law--especially without formal training in any aspect of tax law. Might be challenging to find a practitioner or small firm willing to train you.

In my view, earning an LLM in taxation would be the most cost effective way to get started in your own practice especially since remote online programs are widely available now.

Do you have any experience in tax law ?

[Anonymous User]

Do you want to do estate planning or a different area of tax ?

Might be difficult to become & remain competent in estate planning and other areas of tax law--especially without formal training in any aspect of tax law. Might be challenging to find a practitioner or small firm willing to train you.

In my view, earning an LLM in taxation would be the most cost effective way to get started in your own practice especially since remote online programs are widely available now.

Do you have any experience in tax law ?

No experience in tax law. I would be interested in doing small business corporate work and estate planning/tax consultation of individuals (targeted at small business and individuals and maybe further niche on digital nomads and ex-pats). The only experience I have with tax is from a purely accounting/compliance perspective, and not legal (i.e. doing tax returns).

[CanadianWolf]

I am having difficulty understanding how you plan to become competent in the field of estate planning and corporate guidance on tax matters without any relevant experience. Small firms have no interest in training one to become their competitor/competition. I also have difficulty envisioning a solo practice that combines estate planning with any other area of tax. Too much potential for a malpractice claim as tax is a highly specialized field of law.

There are tax llm programs that also offer CPAs an opportunity to earn a masters in taxation degree. Attorneys & CPAs / accountants take classes together. Great for networking among tax professionals in your geographic area as well as those in your practice area. (The University of Denver School of Law and Villanova law are two such programs.)

Consider enrolling in a tax llm program on a part-time basis in order to explore your areas of interest in tax law as well as to get acquainted with others who may be making a somewhat similar career move.

Practicing accounting and practicing tax law in the same office--even though as a solo practioner--is prohibited by most or all state bars so what you appear to be envisioning may not be allowed.

[CanadianWolf]

As a side note: If your thought is to practice law & accounting out of the same office, while prohibited by state bar rules in the US, it is commonplace in Europe. (Wash DC might be an exception in the US.)

[Anonymous User]

I am having difficulty understanding how you plan to become competent in the field of estate planning and corporate guidance on tax matters without any relevant experience. Small firms have no interest in training one to become their competitor/competition. I also have difficulty envisioning a solo practice that combines estate planning with any other area of tax. Too much potential for a malpractice claim as tax is a highly specialized field of law.

There are tax llm programs that also offer CPAs an opportunity to earn a masters in taxation degree. Attorneys & CPAs / accountants take classes together. Great for networking among tax professionals in your geographic area as well as those in your practice area. (The University of Denver School of Law and Villanova law are two such programs.)

Consider enrolling in a tax llm program on a part-time basis in order to explore your areas of interest in tax law as well as to get acquainted with others who may be making a somewhat similar career move.

Practicing accounting and practicing tax law in the same office--even though as a solo practioner--is prohibited by most or all state bars so what you appear to be envisioning may not be allowed.

Thanks, this OP is a few years outdated, so sorry for the confusion. I don't really intend to practice 'tax law' in the sense you're thinking (i.e. corporate tax law, giving tax guidance from a legal perspective to businesses for M&A, tax controversy, litigation etc.). That ship has sailed and I agree that in that case I would want an LLM and to try biglaw tax.

What I want to do now is work with individuals for estate planning and general tax planning / consulting. I envision something where the JD will really be helpful for trusts, wills, etc. and added credibility. Since I have corporate experience, I figure I'd also help small businesses with general corporate needs (contract review, entity formation, etc.). The CPA license portion i think would also be helpful for credibility and goes towards the tax planning/consulting portion. It sounds like you're saying housing any tax consulting with legal work will be problematic from a bar perspective though. I slow-travel and live internationally in popular nomad-destinations and meet tons of expats and small business owners who are doing the same, so it would be a nice client base to start with. I understand I have no experience on the trusts/wills side (so that portion of what I described above is aspirational at the moment and why I posted this thread - it will be a long time before I can competently add that to the practice).

[Anonymous User]

I am having difficulty understanding how you plan to become competent in the field of estate planning and corporate guidance on tax matters without any relevant experience. Small firms have no interest in training one to become their competitor/competition. I also have difficulty envisioning a solo practice that combines estate planning with any other area of tax. Too much potential for a malpractice claim as tax is a highly specialized field of law.

There are tax llm programs that also offer CPAs an opportunity to earn a masters in taxation degree. Attorneys & CPAs / accountants take classes together. Great for networking among tax professionals in your geographic area as well as those in your practice area. (The University of Denver School of Law and Villanova law are two such programs.)

Consider enrolling in a tax llm program on a part-time basis in order to explore your areas of interest in tax law as well as to get acquainted with others who may be making a somewhat similar career move.

Practicing accounting and practicing tax law in the same office--even though as a solo practioner--is prohibited by most or all state bars so what you appear to be envisioning may not be allowed.

Thanks, this OP is a few years outdated, so sorry for the confusion. I don't really intend to practice 'tax law' in the sense you're thinking (i.e. corporate tax law, giving tax guidance from a legal perspective to businesses for M&A, tax controversy, litigation etc.). That ship has sailed and I agree that in that case I would want an LLM and to try biglaw tax.

What I want to do now is work with individuals for estate planning and general tax planning / consulting. I envision something where the JD will really be helpful for trusts, wills, etc. and added credibility. Since I have corporate experience, I figure I'd also help small businesses with general corporate needs (contract review, entity formation, etc.). The CPA license portion i think would also be helpful for credibility and goes towards the tax planning/consulting portion. It sounds like you're saying housing any tax consulting with legal work will be problematic from a bar perspective though. I slow-travel and live internationally in popular nomad-destinations and meet tons of expats and small business owners who are doing the same, so it would be a nice client base to start with. I understand I have no experience on the trusts/wills side (so that portion of what I described above is aspirational at the moment and why I posted this thread - it will be a long time before I can competently add that to the practice).

Can estate planning be done on this model where you're travelling all the time? I imagine most PNCs will want to meet you. And the wills have to be executed in person

[The Lsat Airbender]

Can estate planning be done on this model where you're travelling all the time? I imagine most PNCs will want to meet you. And the wills have to be executed in person

No and in fact a keystone of most successful T&E solo practices is having deep roots in [geographic/cultural enclave] and knowing the local rich people via your network. So ideally you'd start living in one place—about 20 years ago.