Tax LLM Employment

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rnen22

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Tax LLM Employment

Post by rnen22 » Sat May 30, 2020 7:10 pm

Hey all,

I am considering doing a tax LLM next year at NYU/Georgetown. Does anyone have any recent updates on how the covid crisis is affecting employment offers?

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Re: Tax LLM Employment

Post by Anonymous User » Sat May 30, 2020 9:50 pm

Recent Gtown LLM grad here dealing with others looking for employment. Things are rough right now, but people are still finding things (the IRS has gotten a little more active lately). If you are dead set on tax, then I think you should continue full steam ahead as tax will recover and places like the Big 4 will still hire. If you are just looking to reset OCI to go to a big law firm, then you may want to consider waiting a year because law firm hiring next year might still be rough unless you are at the very top of the class.

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Re: Tax LLM Employment

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:53 pm

Not really Tax LLM employment for this year but I heard Deloitte is planning to give out "separation" notices this week to ~5% of the Tax group.

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Re: Tax LLM Employment

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:09 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:53 pm
Not really Tax LLM employment for this year but I heard Deloitte is planning to give out "separation" notices this week to ~5% of the Tax group.
First I'm hearing about this and I know several people in Deloitte tax. Can you give any more details?

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Re: Tax LLM Employment

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:28 am

I agree with the Gtown grad above. I graduated from nyu this year and as you can see from the TIP 2020 thread, things were great until March when covid really froze the market. From what I’ve heard, Big4 seems to be more willing to hire and law firms aren’t.

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Re: Tax LLM Employment

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:09 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:53 pm
Not really Tax LLM employment for this year but I heard Deloitte is planning to give out "separation" notices this week to ~5% of the Tax group.
First I'm hearing about this and I know several people in Deloitte tax. Can you give any more details?
https://goingconcern.com/layoff-watch-2 ... parations/

According to GC, the ATL of the accounting world.

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Re: Tax LLM Employment

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:26 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:09 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:53 pm
Not really Tax LLM employment for this year but I heard Deloitte is planning to give out "separation" notices this week to ~5% of the Tax group.
First I'm hearing about this and I know several people in Deloitte tax. Can you give any more details?
https://goingconcern.com/layoff-watch-2 ... parations/

According to GC, the ATL of the accounting world.
Insane. Thank you for the link!

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Re: Tax LLM Employment

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:27 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 9:50 pm
Recent Gtown LLM grad here dealing with others looking for employment. Things are rough right now, but people are still finding things (the IRS has gotten a little more active lately). If you are dead set on tax, then I think you should continue full steam ahead as tax will recover and places like the Big 4 will still hire. If you are just looking to reset OCI to go to a big law firm, then you may want to consider waiting a year because law firm hiring next year might still be rough unless you are at the very top of the class.
I am an incoming associate (tax) at Big4. The firm has kept offers open (start dates in July and January 2021 and an option to defer until next summer/fall). Grateful to have a job (I start in January 2021).

There might be a hiring freeze now at Big4 (think I read that somewhere - can't remember where). Tax is always busy, so I wouldn't necessarily discourage getting a tax LLM (obviously need to take the additional cost into account, etc.)

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Re: Tax LLM Employment

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:09 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:27 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 9:50 pm
Recent Gtown LLM grad here dealing with others looking for employment. Things are rough right now, but people are still finding things (the IRS has gotten a little more active lately). If you are dead set on tax, then I think you should continue full steam ahead as tax will recover and places like the Big 4 will still hire. If you are just looking to reset OCI to go to a big law firm, then you may want to consider waiting a year because law firm hiring next year might still be rough unless you are at the very top of the class.
I am an incoming associate (tax) at Big4. The firm has kept offers open (start dates in July and January 2021 and an option to defer until next summer/fall). Grateful to have a job (I start in January 2021).

There might be a hiring freeze now at Big4 (think I read that somewhere - can't remember where). Tax is always busy, so I wouldn't necessarily discourage getting a tax LLM (obviously need to take the additional cost into account, etc.)
Would you mind sharing which one of the Big4, group, and office? Will they be giving you a stipend since you will be starting in 2021?

I will be at KPMG and they still have not come to a decision. I am beginning to get a worried and might start looking for other opportunities if any are available.

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Re: Tax LLM Employment

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:09 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:27 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 9:50 pm
Recent Gtown LLM grad here dealing with others looking for employment. Things are rough right now, but people are still finding things (the IRS has gotten a little more active lately). If you are dead set on tax, then I think you should continue full steam ahead as tax will recover and places like the Big 4 will still hire. If you are just looking to reset OCI to go to a big law firm, then you may want to consider waiting a year because law firm hiring next year might still be rough unless you are at the very top of the class.
I am an incoming associate (tax) at Big4. The firm has kept offers open (start dates in July and January 2021 and an option to defer until next summer/fall). Grateful to have a job (I start in January 2021).

There might be a hiring freeze now at Big4 (think I read that somewhere - can't remember where). Tax is always busy, so I wouldn't necessarily discourage getting a tax LLM (obviously need to take the additional cost into account, etc.)
Would you mind sharing which one of the Big4, group, and office? Will they be giving you a stipend since you will be starting in 2021?

I will be at KPMG and they still have not come to a decision. I am beginning to get a worried and might start looking for other opportunities if any are available.
Seconded. I too am starting at KPMG and haven't heard anything with respect to start dates.

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Re: Tax LLM Employment

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:04 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:09 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:27 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 9:50 pm
Recent Gtown LLM grad here dealing with others looking for employment. Things are rough right now, but people are still finding things (the IRS has gotten a little more active lately). If you are dead set on tax, then I think you should continue full steam ahead as tax will recover and places like the Big 4 will still hire. If you are just looking to reset OCI to go to a big law firm, then you may want to consider waiting a year because law firm hiring next year might still be rough unless you are at the very top of the class.
I am an incoming associate (tax) at Big4. The firm has kept offers open (start dates in July and January 2021 and an option to defer until next summer/fall). Grateful to have a job (I start in January 2021).

There might be a hiring freeze now at Big4 (think I read that somewhere - can't remember where). Tax is always busy, so I wouldn't necessarily discourage getting a tax LLM (obviously need to take the additional cost into account, etc.)
Would you mind sharing which one of the Big4, group, and office? Will they be giving you a stipend since you will be starting in 2021?

I will be at KPMG and they still have not come to a decision. I am beginning to get a worried and might start looking for other opportunities if any are available.
Seconded. I too am starting at KPMG and haven't heard anything with respect to start dates.
Will be at EY in the tax group. Not NY. They gave us updates throughout, such as informing us that we still have jobs, they are working on updated start dates, etc. Has KPMG not been giving updates? Maybe email them to see what's going on?

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Re: Tax LLM Employment

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:51 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:04 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:09 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:27 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 9:50 pm
Recent Gtown LLM grad here dealing with others looking for employment. Things are rough right now, but people are still finding things (the IRS has gotten a little more active lately). If you are dead set on tax, then I think you should continue full steam ahead as tax will recover and places like the Big 4 will still hire. If you are just looking to reset OCI to go to a big law firm, then you may want to consider waiting a year because law firm hiring next year might still be rough unless you are at the very top of the class.
I am an incoming associate (tax) at Big4. The firm has kept offers open (start dates in July and January 2021 and an option to defer until next summer/fall). Grateful to have a job (I start in January 2021).

There might be a hiring freeze now at Big4 (think I read that somewhere - can't remember where). Tax is always busy, so I wouldn't necessarily discourage getting a tax LLM (obviously need to take the additional cost into account, etc.)
Would you mind sharing which one of the Big4, group, and office? Will they be giving you a stipend since you will be starting in 2021?

I will be at KPMG and they still have not come to a decision. I am beginning to get a worried and might start looking for other opportunities if any are available.
Seconded. I too am starting at KPMG and haven't heard anything with respect to start dates.
Will be at EY in the tax group. Not NY. They gave us updates throughout, such as informing us that we still have jobs, they are working on updated start dates, etc. Has KPMG not been giving updates? Maybe email them to see what's going on?
Covid 19 updates for some of the Big4 here: https://goingconcern.com/tracker-job-cu ... -covid-19/

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Re: Tax LLM Employment

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:07 pm

I'm debating applying for the LLM program at G-Town or NYU for 2021-2022. I've interned in Int'l Tax with the 5th biggest CPA firm and have an accounting degree - but, I'm getting my JD from a T4 even though I'm in the top 10% and got a few Am. Jur. Awards (Best Paper Award).

Do you think I'm going to be pigeonholed into Big Four if I go? I'd like to work in AM100 but I realize a lot of law firms want you to have a pedigree.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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BrainsyK

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Re: Tax LLM Employment

Post by BrainsyK » Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:07 pm
I'm debating applying for the LLM program at G-Town or NYU for 2021-2022. I've interned in Int'l Tax with the 5th biggest CPA firm and have an accounting degree - but, I'm getting my JD from a T4 even though I'm in the top 10% and got a few Am. Jur.s (including in Federal Taxation).

Do you think I'm going to be pigeonholed into Big Four if I go? I'd like to work in AM100 but I realize a lot of law firms want you to have a pedigree.
From what I know, which is not much since I'm not involved in tax. If you're not competitive for biglaw beforehand, you will need good grades from GULC/NYU to land biglaw after. You generally get 3 shots at a biglaw during a tax LLM. If you could get biglaw beforehand, you might get it before the program even begins. If you're on the cusp and the economy is hot enough, you might get it sometime before grades arrive. After that, you're just relying on OCI or TIP, I don't know what the actual acronym is, and your grades to do the talking.

Since you're top 10% and I'm assuming, Am. Jur.s is like a CALI or some kind of award for top grades or near top grades, you'll probably do all right, though I've heard that first semester is like 1L all over again but with people who are all at least decent at tax, and you have to beat out at least 2/3rds-ish of them for a shot at biglaw (with your current credentials). The biggest thing is being flexible though. If you're willing to take tax as well as ECB positions all over the country, then yeah, being top third--maybe a little or significantly higher depending on how bad the economy is--you have a pretty good shot at some kind of AmLaw 100 firm. If you only want V5 tax in NYC/SF, you're suddenly a lot less competitive at just top 1/3rd grades.

The odds are that you will end up at a Big 4 though no matter where you go though. NYU has ~50% of the class going Big 4 and ~33% going biglaw. I personally don't think Big 4 would be such a terrible fate as a backup though if your current options worse and you don't have too much debt--especially in a secondary market.

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nealric

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Re: Tax LLM Employment

Post by nealric » Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:53 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:07 pm
I'm debating applying for the LLM program at G-Town or NYU for 2021-2022. I've interned in Int'l Tax with the 5th biggest CPA firm and have an accounting degree - but, I'm getting my JD from a T4 even though I'm in the top 10% and got a few Am. Jur. Awards (Best Paper Award).

Do you think I'm going to be pigeonholed into Big Four if I go? I'd like to work in AM100 but I realize a lot of law firms want you to have a pedigree.
Hate to say it, but I think there's a pretty high chance that you won't get biglaw. LLM programs just aren't a huge recruiting pipeline for them- many would rather hire their 2L summers and send them to a part time LLM. My impression is that most LLM students who end up in biglaw already have JD backgrounds that make them biglaw targets. COVID adds another layer of uncertainty to this as normal recruiting pipelines are jammed.

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Re: Tax LLM Employment

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:08 am

Anon because I don’t want people to figure out who I’m talking about:

I knew a couple of magma cum laude Tier 4 graduates in my NYU LLM program a few years back. Two of them were hellbent on getting biglaw and did very well first semester. One had a 3.8 something and the other a 3.6 something. Neither had that many biglaw bites at TIP and they both struck out. FWIW, I did fairly decent in my t30 JD program (ie, good enough for biglaw), had barely over a 3.0 after first semester, and I got more biglaw screeners/callbacks/offers than my two classmates.

The economy is worse now than it was then, so it’s probably going to be even harder now.

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Re: Tax LLM Employment

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:16 pm

Thanks for the great answers. I appreciate the information - hadn't thought about how COVID would be affecting job offers.

It seems like Big Four is probably where I'll end up working. Is it worthwhile to get the NYU/GT LLM after already having a job offer to work at the Big Four (specifically M&A, Int'l, or NTO)? I haven't been able to find entry level salary comparisons for LLM JD's vs. only JD's.

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Re: Tax LLM Employment

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:16 pm
Thanks for the great answers. I appreciate the information - hadn't thought about how COVID would be affecting job offers.

It seems like Big Four is probably where I'll end up working. Is it worthwhile to get the NYU/GT LLM after already having a job offer to work at the Big Four (specifically M&A, Int'l, or NTO)? I haven't been able to find entry level salary comparisons for LLM JD's vs. only JD's.

LLM’s definitely get paid a little higher than JD’s and start as second years but consider the opportunity cost. LLM Tax programs cost about $60k and you miss out on a year of employment.

You can enroll in the Tax LLM part time and have the firm cover the cost of the program. I believe TIP (Gtown/NYU) permits part time students to participate once. You can try for a law firm position and be more qualified. 2-3 years Big4 tax experience and top LLM Tax program would increase your chances at Big Law.

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Re: Tax LLM Employment

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:16 pm
Thanks for the great answers. I appreciate the information - hadn't thought about how COVID would be affecting job offers.

It seems like Big Four is probably where I'll end up working. Is it worthwhile to get the NYU/GT LLM after already having a job offer to work at the Big Four (specifically M&A, Int'l, or NTO)? I haven't been able to find entry level salary comparisons for LLM JD's vs. only JD's.
There is a decent pay bump in Big 4 if you have a LLM. One of my JD classmates works at regional Big4 Int'l (secondary market) and the pay was around 75k (bonus included). My LLM classmates were offered 125k (bonus included) from the same Big 4 in secondary markets. NTO pay is higher than that, but it is very unlikely that you will get a position with NTO right out of your JD program without a LLM. If Big4 is your end goal, I highly recommend a LLM. Also, Northwestern/UF LLM might be less expensive option and you might be able to get a decent scholarship with your stats. Best of luck!

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Re: Tax LLM Employment

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:17 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:16 pm
Thanks for the great answers. I appreciate the information - hadn't thought about how COVID would be affecting job offers.

It seems like Big Four is probably where I'll end up working. Is it worthwhile to get the NYU/GT LLM after already having a job offer to work at the Big Four (specifically M&A, Int'l, or NTO)? I haven't been able to find entry level salary comparisons for LLM JD's vs. only JD's.
There is a decent pay bump in Big 4 if you have a LLM. One of my JD classmates works at regional Big4 Int'l (secondary market) and the pay was around 75k (bonus included). My LLM classmates were offered 125k (bonus included) from the same Big 4 in secondary markets. NTO pay is higher than that, but it is very unlikely that you will get a position with NTO right out of your JD program without a LLM. If Big4 is your end goal, I highly recommend a LLM. Also, Northwestern/UF LLM might be less expensive option and you might be able to get a decent scholarship with your stats. Best of luck!
Would you be willing to elaborate on the above? I was offered 125k in NYC but would LOVE to go to a secondary market (depending where) and make the same thing. What markets were you referencing above?

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Re: Tax LLM Employment

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:50 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:17 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:16 pm
Thanks for the great answers. I appreciate the information - hadn't thought about how COVID would be affecting job offers.

It seems like Big Four is probably where I'll end up working. Is it worthwhile to get the NYU/GT LLM after already having a job offer to work at the Big Four (specifically M&A, Int'l, or NTO)? I haven't been able to find entry level salary comparisons for LLM JD's vs. only JD's.
There is a decent pay bump in Big 4 if you have a LLM. One of my JD classmates works at regional Big4 Int'l (secondary market) and the pay was around 75k (bonus included). My LLM classmates were offered 125k (bonus included) from the same Big 4 in secondary markets. NTO pay is higher than that, but it is very unlikely that you will get a position with NTO right out of your JD program without a LLM. If Big4 is your end goal, I highly recommend a LLM. Also, Northwestern/UF LLM might be less expensive option and you might be able to get a decent scholarship with your stats. Best of luck!
Would you be willing to elaborate on the above? I was offered 125k in NYC but would LOVE to go to a secondary market (depending where) and make the same thing. What markets were you referencing above?
Atlanta/North Carolina/Miami

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RMFT12

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Re: Tax LLM Employment

Post by RMFT12 » Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:30 pm

NYU LLM alum here- I agree with most of the above regarding Biglaw prospects, Big4, etc., but I will point out that I have found the Tax LLM training to be vital in a small firm practice, even in a corporate/M&A context as well as in-house. I do not see how it would be possible to establish a foundation of C Corp, S Corp, Pship, and international tax knowledge without doing a year long in-depth study. Even with that foundation, you will have a lot to learn in whatever tax area you practice, but without it I don’t know how you could spot or explain issues

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Re: Tax LLM Employment

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:30 pm

RMFT12 wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:30 pm
NYU LLM alum here- I agree with most of the above regarding Biglaw prospects, Big4, etc., but I will point out that I have found the Tax LLM training to be vital in a small firm practice, even in a corporate/M&A context as well as in-house. I do not see how it would be possible to establish a foundation of C Corp, S Corp, Pship, and international tax knowledge without doing a year long in-depth study. Even with that foundation, you will have a lot to learn in whatever tax area you practice, but without it I don’t know how you could spot or explain issues
To offer a counterpoint, I worked in Big 4 as a J.D. without a Tax LLM. After two years in your specialty area, you will have a very good understanding of that specialty area. Hopefully, this doesn't give away my Big 4, but we spent a week at its training facility in a Southern state where we received tax instruction all day, each day, from firm leadership. This would occur once as a staff (first two years), then yearly after becoming a senior or above (starting the third year). Additionally, we received frequent service line and office training from tax partners, in addition to CLEs. However, what you are saying is likely true for tax generalist or someone at a small law firm, so I am not entirely disagreeing.

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Re: Tax LLM Employment

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:40 pm

Quoted anon here- yes, if you are in a specialist area it would be very different than at a small firm, but even at a BigLaw shop I think you would need a broad foundation of different areas of tax law to review different purchase agreements, etc. At a small firm, you need to be able to answer choice of entity questions, SALT questions, etc, which would be difficult to learn on the job

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