Stealth Layoff Tracker (COVID-19 2020) Forum

[Anonymous User]

Has anybody heard of firms actively hiring laterals (other than BK associates)? It seems that a few people I know lateraled to the same V5 in different offices and different practice group but that could of course just be a coincidence.

My V40 is looking to hire life science midlevels, FWIW. But definitely hiring much, much slower than they were pre-pandemic.

Goodwin? Saw that posting, and not going to lie that it hurts a little bit as a stealthed associate from the Tech/LS group that they're already going back to the hiring well while the April layoffs aren't even done severance yet.

If not Goodwin, would love to know the firm

As a fellow Goodwin stealthee, I had the same exact reaction. I figured they would start hiring again later this year, but I'm shocked they started doing it so soon.

As a Goodwin SA, my condolences to both of you. This is low on the firm's part, I cringed when I saw these posts. Best of luck out there and thanks for keeping us updated.

[Anonymous User]

For Cleary, are you referring to the ordinary course firings that happen around this time of year every year? I wouldn't think of those as stealth layoffs. Every April/May following the spring partner meeting, the firm culls the more senior classes, firing associates who are no longer partner track (up or out) and reaches down to fire some associates in lower classes too. Can confirm Cleary has done that the last few years, including this year, probably firing between 10-20 associates annually. Associates get a significant amount of time to find a new job (while being paid). Or is the poster referring to something different?

It didn't happen to me and I am not in a class year or group that was impacted. But I heard from others: (1) more lawyers cut than in prior years, (2) people given until September to find new positions (vs December or later, which is more standard), and (3) lawyers in class years that are not usually part of the spring partner meeting lay-offs are being are being culled. So, while more senior lawyers are always part of that conversation, I heard about 3rd/4th/5th years getting the call.

Another Cleary associate here. I can confirm I've heard all of the same things as the above, morale is definitely low...

I had only heard that the senior classes had similar cuts as in prior years (and smaller cuts than in some recent years when the firm was pretty heavy handed with cuts) and senior folks were given until December 31 to find new positions, which is in line with prior years though a little less generous (but continues the trend in recent years for less time to be given - used to be one year plus). I hadn't heard about a lot of 3rd/4th/5th years getting the call and folks being given a September deadline. That's terrible. September is really rough. I do think it's a myth though that folks in junior classes don't get the call too. It happens every year and I have seen it happen to folks as junior as second years, though those are one-offs. This sounds like more than that. Does it seem like particular groups were more impacted?

[Anonymous User]

Polsinelli.

[Anonymous User]

For Cleary, are you referring to the ordinary course firings that happen around this time of year every year? I wouldn't think of those as stealth layoffs. Every April/May following the spring partner meeting, the firm culls the more senior classes, firing associates who are no longer partner track (up or out) and reaches down to fire some associates in lower classes too. Can confirm Cleary has done that the last few years, including this year, probably firing between 10-20 associates annually. Associates get a significant amount of time to find a new job (while being paid). Or is the poster referring to something different?

It didn't happen to me and I am not in a class year or group that was impacted. But I heard from others: (1) more lawyers cut than in prior years, (2) people given until September to find new positions (vs December or later, which is more standard), and (3) lawyers in class years that are not usually part of the spring partner meeting lay-offs are being are being culled. So, while more senior lawyers are always part of that conversation, I heard about 3rd/4th/5th years getting the call.

Another Cleary associate here. I can confirm I've heard all of the same things as the above, morale is definitely low...

I had only heard that the senior classes had similar cuts as in prior years (and smaller cuts than in some recent years when the firm was pretty heavy handed with cuts) and senior folks were given until December 31 to find new positions, which is in line with prior years though a little less generous (but continues the trend in recent years for less time to be given - used to be one year plus). I hadn't heard about a lot of 3rd/4th/5th years getting the call and folks being given a September deadline. That's terrible. September is really rough. I do think it's a myth though that folks in junior classes don't get the call too. It happens every year and I have seen it happen to folks as junior as second years, though those are one-offs. This sounds like more than that. Does it seem like particular groups were more impacted?

Yeah, another Cleary associate who has heard same as last above -- fairly trusted seniors say that "counseling out" was commensurate with recent years, and I've heard general reassurances that the alumni director + partners work to place these folks (understanding that partners are not going to pick up the phone for those who are pushed out very early due to significant performance issues). I've also seen several colleagues jump into attractive in-house positions in the last couple months, where I know that the lawyer in question was not being counseled out. Would be interested to hear more detail from folks who think we're going down the tubes.

[esther0123]

For those of you who were stealth-laid off, condolences. I would like to just understand what the "official" protocol is, or the different variants of that is. Is HR usually (or always?) involved in the communication? Did you sign some kind of a contract or just an email? Are you receiving additional work at all or are you completely cut off from firm communication?

[Wearthewildthingsr]

For those of you who were stealth-laid off, condolences. I would like to just understand what the "official" protocol is, or the different variants of that is. Is HR usually (or always?) involved in the communication? Did you sign some kind of a contract or just an email? Are you receiving additional work at all or are you completely cut off from firm communication?

HR always involved (to whatever degree). Either there in the room or at the very least hanging around to make sure that the transition is seamless.

Severance contract that usually includes a NDA and non-disparagement clause.

Lol at additional work. No offense, but that question is truly naive. You're done. There's no attorney-client relationship. Cut off. Out of there.

[Anonymous User]

For those of you who were stealth-laid off, condolences. I would like to just understand what the "official" protocol is, or the different variants of that is. Is HR usually (or always?) involved in the communication? Did you sign some kind of a contract or just an email? Are you receiving additional work at all or are you completely cut off from firm communication?

It depends. In my case, HR was in the room, I was not asked to sign any agreement, and I was escorted out of the building within minutes. I got the call on a Monday morning, but you can get it any time. Partner asks you to meet him or her in a conference room.

[Anonymous User]

For those of you who were stealth-laid off, condolences. I would like to just understand what the "official" protocol is, or the different variants of that is. Is HR usually (or always?) involved in the communication? Did you sign some kind of a contract or just an email? Are you receiving additional work at all or are you completely cut off from firm communication?

HR always involved (to whatever degree). Either there in the room or at the very least hanging around to make sure that the transition is seamless.

Severance contract that usually includes a NDA and non-disparagement clause.

Lol at additional work. No offense, but that question is truly naive. You're done. There's no attorney-client relationship. Cut off. Out of there.

This isn't true at all in my experience. I was given the talk, not asked to sign anything, told I had to be out the door in X months and then was still given minor assignments until that date (mostly diligence)

[esther0123]

For those of you who were stealth-laid off, condolences. I would like to just understand what the "official" protocol is, or the different variants of that is. Is HR usually (or always?) involved in the communication? Did you sign some kind of a contract or just an email? Are you receiving additional work at all or are you completely cut off from firm communication?

HR always involved (to whatever degree). Either there in the room or at the very least hanging around to make sure that the transition is seamless.

Severance contract that usually includes a NDA and non-disparagement clause.

Lol at additional work. No offense, but that question is truly naive. You're done. There's no attorney-client relationship. Cut off. Out of there.

This isn't true at all in my experience. I was given the talk, not asked to sign anything, told I had to be out the door in X months and then was still given minor assignments until that date (mostly diligence)

Was HR involved when you were given the talk / was there a written record or witness to the terms of the "talk"? Or was HR engaged after you gave notice?

[Anonymous User]

Is there any more info on Ropes layoffs? What group was it? Are we sure this is true?

I work at Ropes (corporate, NY). If there are layoffs, this is the first I'm hearing of it.

[Wearthewildthingsr]

For those of you who were stealth-laid off, condolences. I would like to just understand what the "official" protocol is, or the different variants of that is. Is HR usually (or always?) involved in the communication? Did you sign some kind of a contract or just an email? Are you receiving additional work at all or are you completely cut off from firm communication?

HR always involved (to whatever degree). Either there in the room or at the very least hanging around to make sure that the transition is seamless.

Severance contract that usually includes a NDA and non-disparagement clause.

Lol at additional work. No offense, but that question is truly naive. You're done. There's no attorney-client relationship. Cut off. Out of there.

This isn't true at all in my experience. I was given the talk, not asked to sign anything, told I had to be out the door in X months and then was still given minor assignments until that date (mostly diligence)

Shrug. I guess it's just a disagreement about being stealth laid off vs. being pushed out. In my mind, when someone says they're getting stealthed, it's rather dramatic and abrupt, hey can you come in x conference room? Yaddy yaddy ya, here's the severance contract.

I'm sure many have your experience too but it seems more akin to a run of the mill push out more than anything.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone at Hughes Hubbard who can give any deets on layoffs reported on ATL?

[Anonymous User]

Shrug. I guess it's just a disagreement about being stealth laid off vs. being pushed out. In my mind, when someone says they're getting stealthed, it's rather dramatic and abrupt, hey can you come in x conference room? Yaddy yaddy ya, here's the severance contract.

I'm sure many have your experience too but it seems more akin to a run of the mill push out more than anything.

I think part if the idea is that stealth layoffs CAN be a quick layoff that looks like "here's the severance contract," or they can look like a lot more people getting a "run of the mill push out" than otherwise would (which is more "stealthy"). So, if half of the fifth years are being "counseled out," but that's three times more than the number who would have received the same talk in a good economy, they are stealthy laid off. And they might still receive a few months of website time/varied easy assignments during those few months after receiving the talk. But they may have otherwise kept their job in a different year, and they might have been given a longer runway to find new work (plus, they face an uncertain economy where in-house, government, other firms, whatever may be hiring fewer people).

[esther0123]

For those of you who were stealth-laid off, condolences. I would like to just understand what the "official" protocol is, or the different variants of that is. Is HR usually (or always?) involved in the communication? Did you sign some kind of a contract or just an email? Are you receiving additional work at all or are you completely cut off from firm communication?

HR always involved (to whatever degree). Either there in the room or at the very least hanging around to make sure that the transition is seamless.

Severance contract that usually includes a NDA and non-disparagement clause.

Lol at additional work. No offense, but that question is truly naive. You're done. There's no attorney-client relationship. Cut off. Out of there.

This isn't true at all in my experience. I was given the talk, not asked to sign anything, told I had to be out the door in X months and then was still given minor assignments until that date (mostly diligence)

Was HR involved when you were given the talk / was there a written record or witness to the terms of the "talk"? Or was HR engaged after you gave notice?

Bump

[Anonymous User]

For those of you who were stealth-laid off, condolences. I would like to just understand what the "official" protocol is, or the different variants of that is. Is HR usually (or always?) involved in the communication? Did you sign some kind of a contract or just an email? Are you receiving additional work at all or are you completely cut off from firm communication?

HR always involved (to whatever degree). Either there in the room or at the very least hanging around to make sure that the transition is seamless.

Severance contract that usually includes a NDA and non-disparagement clause.

Lol at additional work. No offense, but that question is truly naive. You're done. There's no attorney-client relationship. Cut off. Out of there.

This isn't true at all in my experience. I was given the talk, not asked to sign anything, told I had to be out the door in X months and then was still given minor assignments until that date (mostly diligence)

Was HR involved when you were given the talk / was there a written record or witness to the terms of the "talk"? Or was HR engaged after you gave notice?

Bump

Not one of the above posters, but when I got The Talk there was no HR, nothing to sign, or anything written. Just told there were some fit issues and it would be good to shoot for X date to be starting my next opportunity.

[esther0123]

For those of you who were stealth-laid off, condolences. I would like to just understand what the "official" protocol is, or the different variants of that is. Is HR usually (or always?) involved in the communication? Did you sign some kind of a contract or just an email? Are you receiving additional work at all or are you completely cut off from firm communication?

HR always involved (to whatever degree). Either there in the room or at the very least hanging around to make sure that the transition is seamless.

Severance contract that usually includes a NDA and non-disparagement clause.

Lol at additional work. No offense, but that question is truly naive. You're done. There's no attorney-client relationship. Cut off. Out of there.

This isn't true at all in my experience. I was given the talk, not asked to sign anything, told I had to be out the door in X months and then was still given minor assignments until that date (mostly diligence)

Was HR involved when you were given the talk / was there a written record or witness to the terms of the "talk"? Or was HR engaged after you gave notice?

Bump

Not one of the above posters, but when I got The Talk there was no HR, nothing to sign, or anything written. Just told there were some fit issues and it would be good to shoot for X date to be starting my next opportunity.

I see. After this talk, were you involved in any additional assignments or only just wrapping up your existing matters?

[Anonymous User]

I was part of a stealth layoff some time ago from my first biglaw firm. HR was aware, but not involved. I just received an email one Friday morning to meet with a partner (laughably, my "mentor") who told me things weren't working out and strongly hinted that I look elsewhere. This was followed by another meeting a few months later where they made it official that I was out and had 1-2 months to figure something out.

My work had actually been cut off to a trickle a little while before the first meeting, and after that first meeting it went to zero. A few practice group-sustaining matters that I was working on settled and left way too many associates with way too little work to go around. I'm not sure when the official call was made, but it was clear from before the first meeting that I was getting frozen out. The other associates who left with me had similar experiences. This was all off the review cycle.

[mdoodl]

I was part of a stealth layoff some time ago from my first biglaw firm. HR was aware, but not involved. I just received an email one Friday morning to meet with a partner (laughably, my "mentor") who told me things weren't working out and strongly hinted that I look elsewhere. This was followed by another meeting a few months later where they made it official that I was out and had 1-2 months to figure something out.

My work has actually been cut off to a trickle a little while before the first meeting, and after that first meeting it went to zero. A few practice group-sustaining matters that I was working on settled and left way too many associates with way too little work to go around. I'm not sure when the official call was made, but it was clear from before the first meeting that I was getting frozen out. The other associates who left with me had similar experiences. This was all off the review cycle.

Really sorry to hear this - hope you're having luck with your search. Can you expand a little on the bit re: the first meeting and how exactly they "strongly hinted" you to look elsewhere?

[wwwcol]

All of these people trying to extract excruciating details from people who were stealthed (“how much work did you get after the first meeting? What did they tell you? What were you wearing that day? What did you have for breakfast that day?”) are sort of grotesque rubbernecking and really add no value to anyone.

The only common themes are most people had some sense it was coming, and there’s never any ambiguity once they sit you down for the talk

[Ultramar vistas]

All of these people trying to extract excruciating details from people who were stealthed (“how much work did you get after the first meeting? What did they tell you? What were you wearing that day? What did you have for breakfast that day?”) are sort of grotesque rubbernecking and really add no value to anyone.

The only common themes are most people had some sense it was coming, and there’s never any ambiguity once they sit you down for the talk

I think given the writing style it’s just one person and it’s super cringey.

[sparty99]

I was part of a stealth layoff some time ago from my first biglaw firm. HR was aware, but not involved. I just received an email one Friday morning to meet with a partner (laughably, my "mentor") who told me things weren't working out and strongly hinted that I look elsewhere. This was followed by another meeting a few months later where they made it official that I was out and had 1-2 months to figure something out.

My work has actually been cut off to a trickle a little while before the first meeting, and after that first meeting it went to zero. A few practice group-sustaining matters that I was working on settled and left way too many associates with way too little work to go around. I'm not sure when the official call was made, but it was clear from before the first meeting that I was getting frozen out. The other associates who left with me had similar experiences. This was all off the review cycle.

Really sorry to hear this - hope you're having luck with your search. Can you expand a little on the bit re: the first meeting and how exactly they "strongly hinted" you to look elsewhere?

Damn fool. Quit asking so many questions about their lay-off. It does not matter. If you are worried that you are next, you probably are and should start looking now. Otherwise, stop being so nosey. It is none of your business about the specifics! And what do you think "strongly hinted" could mean? "We probably don't have a lot of work for you over the next 6 months," "I am worried about your hours," "I am worried about your future at the firm." Dang, it does not take a rocket scientist to determine what he meant by "strongly hinted."

[Anonymous User]

I was part of a stealth layoff some time ago from my first biglaw firm. HR was aware, but not involved. I just received an email one Friday morning to meet with a partner (laughably, my "mentor") who told me things weren't working out and strongly hinted that I look elsewhere. This was followed by another meeting a few months later where they made it official that I was out and had 1-2 months to figure something out.

My work has actually been cut off to a trickle a little while before the first meeting, and after that first meeting it went to zero. A few practice group-sustaining matters that I was working on settled and left way too many associates with way too little work to go around. I'm not sure when the official call was made, but it was clear from before the first meeting that I was getting frozen out. The other associates who left with me had similar experiences. This was all off the review cycle.

Really sorry to hear this - hope you're having luck with your search. Can you expand a little on the bit re: the first meeting and how exactly they "strongly hinted" you to look elsewhere?

Here's a hint - if a partner or HR talks to you about your employment at the firm and it isn't very positive, it means you should start looking for new jobs ASAP.

[nixy]

I’m not usually a Sparty fan but the above post (and wwwcol’s) is correct. Anon, you’re not going to be able to divine what’s happening to you by parsing the details of people you don’t know at unidentified firms.

[Wearthewildthingsr]

Obviously all these questions re: further details is from some overly neurotic first or second year who have themselves received some sort of "talk" and are now trying to read tea leaves from other people's experiences as to whether they too are being counseled out or if they could rationalize that it was just some sort of helpful mentoring talk.

Listen, dude, you're on the firing line. You got a bad talk. Go look for another job. Stop annoying others.h

[cavalier1138]

I've done some cleanup on this thread with regards to anon abuse.

I can't remember if I had to do it on this thread or another, but people, please stop using anon to protect yourself from people thinking you're nosy/uninformed. The point of the feature is to protect your identity, not your street cred.