Should I list my business on my resume for lateral interviews? Forum

[wildcatatpenn]

I imagine there are not tooooo many TLS readers that have experience with this, but still appreciate input from experienced big/midlaw attys on your opinion. I think that this question is so particular it'd be impossible to answer without laying out the facts, so I kinda summarized where I'm at below. So I tried to give some headings and stuff to skip/skim over if u can. My real question is the last paragraph at the bottom though.

Current Situation

• Basically, my job sux ass. Literally pushes me to the darkest places and, long story short, I'm 100% just pounding a my square peg into a fuck-shaped hole through inhumane hours (250-300 hr months are common) and an incredibly unhealthy life
• Currently 4th year coming up on 5th yr in a few months in "regional biglaw." Without looking it up, probably in the range of AmLaw 110-140 or so. I'm full-time, partnership track associate still, but have definitely been moving towards the exit whether it ends up being voluntary or not. Eventually. Everyone loves me on a personal level which is probably the only reason I'm still around but I just cannot physically produce the way they want me to at this point.
• Long story short, I launched a business in the tourism/hospitality area. It's very new at this point, but EBIT (income, basically) should be around 100-150k. This honestly takes what feels like maybe 5-10 hrs of "real work" though per week. Please keep in mind that is isnt a high growth oriented business, which aligns with my goals, b/c my goals are definitely not to amass $$$. I'm still young and enjoying my youth tbh. And there's very "out-ing" reasons I value my youth especially high for what I'm pursuing where I live currently, approaching the maximum age that it's really possible but yea not going farther than that on this public forum.
• I also happen to be in a practice area that works well remotely, and while not "easy" to get, has a reasonable # of opportunities that are partially or fully remote. I need this because I'm not moving.
• I also note I have what looks like a very strong resume for my industry.. I could very easily go to a major market and get a fatty fukin raise, like $100k+ at this point, but honestly this experience has sucked ass so much that I cannot even fathom restarting at another firm at this point even for that kinda $$$.
• (I definitely do not come from or have safe fallback $ to coast if I break)
• My current firm is around the top of most "regional biglaw" firms, but to be very clear it's WELL below Cravath scale at this level of seniority (not even shy to share, I'm app'x $160k rn).
• (FWIW, please accept as true my opinion that I'm actually really fkin good at my practice area, not one of the ppl that's gotten fired cuz they suck)

Goals/Short-Term Life Plan
So yea, that's pretty much my sitch. Based on all that, I've determined that my strategy is going to be to try to get to a firm/schedule that supplements my other business so I can continue to grow financially, but without sacrificing my life/mental health/entire joy of living the way I am now.

EWYB/K (earn-what-u-bill/kill) models are prevalent in my industry. So I've lined up some firms that offer this model. Including one that I talked to that has given "sorta" seemed to give me a standing offer. I've also lined up some interviews with more "traditional" firms (i.e., Vault firms) that are at least possibly open to the substantially remote thing.

Basically my goal is probably: A) land one of these firms where I can work 10-25 hrs a week and very decently supplement my business income; or, mayyyybe, B) cash out the end of my legal career with maybe 1 year or so of big paychecks in a remote capacity until they realize that I honestly think this industry is a dying model. And I figure I could re-enter the "BigLaw" scene once I'm 40 years old if I want to at that point.


The Dilemma
So ultimately, here's my question: do I list my business, which is really what sustains me, what I find some joy from, doesn't take too much of my fleeting time left, and allows me to pursue the non-monetary things that I need to pursue right now. The way I see it, if I list it:
On the + side: maybe an interviewer sees and thinks its cool and interesting, it's profitable which is presumably good, demonstrates positive professional qualities or wtv.
But on the - side: they see it and think I'm fully devoted or committed to it such that I would shirk my legal work for it. They'd rather see me just FULLY committed to their firm.

Ultimately, I really just want to land one of the (very few) jobs that I am willing to take a shot at and that also are willing to accept that I am living where I live. So I do I list my personal business or not? My resume is totally fine without including it, but does it help me or hurt me?

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Thank you.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

Congrats on running a successful business on your own (especially while working a big law job). I don’t see how it makes sense to list it because a law firm will be hiring you full time for 100% of your labor and the business shows that they will not be getting that and also shows that potentially you will be quitting your job to pursue your business.

Good luck and I hope you end up running your business and working a little bit remotely.

[wildcatatpenn]

Congrats on running a successful business on your own (especially while working a big law job). I don’t see how it makes sense to list it because a law firm will be hiring you full time for 100% of your labor and the business shows that they will not be getting that and also shows that potentially you will be quitting your job to pursue your business.

Good luck and I hope you end up running your business and working a little bit remotely.

Thanks!

I think my thoughts agree with yours for the more traditional firms.

What do you think if it's one of these firms on the "eat what u bill" model? In my practice area they love to pitch how they have attys that work really hard for huge $$$ supposedly competitive with biglaw, while others work 10 hrs a week and that's okay too.. Essentially paid on a per-project basis. Thinking now, still seems like nothing to gain by listing it.. Agree?

[Deserving Porcupine]

Don't do this. Even at EWYK firms, they are still eating from your kill. The firm has the same fixed costs for you regardless. You have to make them think that your kills will exceed their fixed costs and leave them with enough margin after paying you to make it worth their while. Even if it only takes 10 hr/week (which they will assume is an underestimate) that takes off the table about 500+ hours a year of pure margin for the firm. You are basically telling them to expect ~25-35% less profit from you in comparison to every other lateral candidate. Seems dumb to me, but what do I know?

[Yugihoe]

Basically see no benefits in listing the business on your resume, despite what you put in the "advantages" column. I mostly just wanted to write to say you're my hero and I hope I can think of and execute a business using only 10 hours a week that could generate a 100k in revenue (and at big law while at it, WOW).

[wildcatatpenn]

Thanks guys. Appreciate the direct answers. Definitely see the logic and agree with it. Honestly these few responses have already helped cut through the clutter in my head thinking about all this stuff. I appreciate it.

Don't do this. Even at EWYK firms, they are still eating from your kill. The firm has the same fixed costs for you regardless. You have to make them think that your kills will exceed their fixed costs and leave them with enough margin after paying you to make it worth their while. Even if it only takes 10 hr/week (which they will assume is an underestimate) that takes off the table about 500+ hours a year of pure margin for the firm. You are basically telling them to expect ~25-35% less profit from you in comparison to every other lateral candidate. Seems dumb to me, but what do I know?

Yea, you make some good points here that. I definitely haven't given the fixed costs aspect that much thought but that totally makes sense.

Basically see no benefits in listing the business on your resume, despite what you put in the "advantages" column. I mostly just wanted to write to say you're my hero and I hope I can think of and execute a business using only 10 hours a week that could generate a 100k in revenue (and at big law while at it, WOW).

Haha. Yea, you guys helped me come to my senses on that one real quick I'm thinking now. And hey, thanks for the vibes
To be clear it's definitely more than 10 hours if u counted it like an hourly job, but when I'm mad stoked on doing what I'm doing and parts of it are something i'd literally do for $0, it's night and day.

If you have these kind of thoughts, you're totally not alone and I'm not unique. Of my 2 closest friends from my firm... 1 has officially scaled back to pursue his own tech thing, still trying to get to that MVP, but so clearly happier trying to make it happen. And the other I'm still trying to give up the safety and go for it but we've bounced a million ideas back and forth--im sure he will eventually. So yea go for it!

I'm reminded of my favorite video ever, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF8uR6Z6KLc

Cheers xo

[trebekismyhero]

Basically see no benefits in listing the business on your resume, despite what you put in the "advantages" column. I mostly just wanted to write to say you're my hero and I hope I can think of and execute a business using only 10 hours a week that could generate a 100k in revenue (and at big law while at it, WOW).

+1, congrats on the awesome biz and don't tell firms

[Yugihoe]

Haha. Yea, you guys helped me come to my senses on that one real quick I'm thinking now. And hey, thanks for the vibes
To be clear it's definitely more than 10 hours if u counted it like an hourly job, but when I'm mad stoked on doing what I'm doing and parts of it are something i'd literally do for $0, it's night and day.

If you have these kind of thoughts, you're totally not alone and I'm not unique. Of my 2 closest friends from my firm... 1 has officially scaled back to pursue his own tech thing, still trying to get to that MVP, but so clearly happier trying to make it happen. And the other I'm still trying to give up the safety and go for it but we've bounced a million ideas back and forth--im sure he will eventually. So yea go for it!

I'm reminded of my favorite video ever, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF8uR6Z6KLc

Cheers xo

That's pretty awesome. If you wanted to post more about how you came up with your idea, what the process was like etc., I'd def be interested in learning more (of course without having to out yourself or give away anything particular about your business). I've left big law more junior than you and am in-house now and while hours are better and I'm making a very decent salary (250k+), I'm very interested in figuring out alternative sources of income. This social distancing period has given me even more time on my hands now and I'd much rather quit practicing law or at least do something entrepreneurial that I enjoy. Wish I got into the blogging world 10 years ago but have even considered trying to find some niche I know a lot about and producing content / ebooks about it. LOL I actually considered doing LSAT/lawschool admissions stuff given how much time I spent tutoring or being on TLS in the last ten years.

[decimalsanddollars]

Agree w/ Yugihoe and trebek: don't list the business on resume for firms

[2013]

1) don’t list your business

2) I don’t know why you keep saying “in my practice area, it’s EWYK.” Isn’t this a firm to firm thing? Also, if you’re going to a traditional firm, EWYK doesn’t help you until you’re a partner (a lot of firms don’t give origination credit to associates). Idk if a traditional firm is even the right avenue for you.

3) some firms do have of counsel positions that may allow you to keep 1/3 of what you collect. Is this the type of position you’re talking about? You’d have no benefits, which would blow.

4) very jealous that you have a successful side hustle. Edit: are you some kind of influencer? The whole age/location thing makes it seem so.

[Yugihoe]

1)

4) very jealous that you have a successful side hustle. Edit: are you some kind of influencer? The whole age/location thing makes it seem so.

Yea was thinking similar because hospitality / age. But still find it hard to see while doing biglaw. I know a few ex-big lawyers in the space but i dont know if they are generating that kind of income just through social media and travel blogging given how saturated the market is (i.e. IG @thewayfaress or @dhersz).

ETA: accidental anon, it's yugihoe

[Yugihoe]

LMAO who else read the above and barely understood any of it?

[2013]

LMAO who else read the above and barely understood any of it?

English is definitely not their first language. I understood some of it though.

[RedGiant]

So counterpoint here:

- I would not list this on my resume. Law firms really do only think about how much you can bill for them.
- I do think this is important to disclose the business and the relationships for conflicts purposes.
- If your new firm has an anti-moonlighting/F-T efforts policy, this might result in your offer being revoked, and you should be prepared for that. I hope you can understand if you were a manager, you wouldn't want your direct reports to spend 10% or more of their time on someone else's business. This is a common thing in the US, and in the 5 biglaw firms I've worked at, 4 had policies like this.

If you are running an airbnb type setup, hat's off--I rented a roommate's room out via airbnb when I was a first year in biglaw, and it was so much work!

[wildcatatpenn]

...
moonlighting
...
If you are running an airbnb type setup, hat's off--I rented a roommate's room out via airbnb when I was a first year in biglaw, and it was so much work!

Na not an airbnb, but I used to when I weirdly ended up paying rent on 2 places and chose not to break lease on 1 of them. Seeing that that was possible was probably the impetus for my vision. So I kinda ran win that and combined it with another of my passions and what I saw as an opportunity to fill a market need with a very permanently inelastic supply. As far as I'm comfortable going but yea.

I've never actually seen the moonlighting clause, as far as I can remember anyways, and I've been at a few firms between SAs and now. But meh, I do good work, and if I do end up getting fired I'm fortunate enough I can just say "oh well." It's definitely a good point though, I'm glad you brought it up.

LMAO who else read the above and barely understood any of it?

English is definitely not their first language. I understood some of it though.

Ahahahah omg. English might have been my 2nd language but super fucked up was my 3rd.

Anyways, thanks for the help, all. I sent these resumes in like days ago. I took your guys' advice, so this issue is well resolved.