WFH from a different state or country Forum

[Anonymous User]

Is anyone wfh from a different state or country? Did you ask for permission? How did that conversation go if you asked.

I'm wondering if is a dumb question to ask because of ethics rule etc that I would be practicing law in a place I'm not licensed in.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

I'm wondering if is a dumb question to ask because of ethics rule etc that I would be practicing law in a place I'm not licensed in.

Is this even a concern? People work on vacation or whatever all the time.

[s1m4]

I'm considering just moving back to my home state which I planned to do long term anyway and working remotely indefinitely. WFH has been going well for me.

[L'orDuCommun]

Is anyone wfh from a different state or country? Did you ask for permission? How did that conversation go if you asked.

I'm wondering if is a dumb question to ask because of ethics rule etc that I would be practicing law in a place I'm not licensed in.

I don't think you should feel a need to ask for permission. As long as you're as available as you'd normally be (making allowances for the extraordinary situation--e.g. dealing with kids being at home or caring for someone else), your physical location doesn't matter.

[Anonymous User]

Could this affect taxation? I’m originally not from New York and if moving back home (no income tax state) could mean saving thousands on taxes, even if I had to find a short term rental.

[papermateflair]

If you're working from another country you could create permanent establishment issues (working while on vacation isn't the same thing as continuous work in another country). You should absolutely clear it with your firm before going to another country and working long-term, and honestly your firm is going to say no.

If you're working in another state long-term, then you would need to have your tax withholdings set up for that state, and there are unemployment/workers' comp filings too (I think), so you would also need to clear that with your firm as well (and they're likely to say no, unless they already have an office in that state - partners have to do tax filings for each state that they earn income, and no one wants to add ANOTHER state because a random associate in the NYC office has decided to move to South Dakota or whatever). Again, moving somewhere else and working there continuously isn't the same as a couple of weeks of vacation.

Caveats that this isn't my area of the law, but there's a ton out there on employees getting stuck in other states/countries and the impact on businesses, so you should be able to use the google machine to find discussions on these issues.

[PT818]

Could this affect taxation? I’m originally not from New York and if moving back home (no income tax state) could mean saving thousands on taxes, even if I had to find a short term rental.

The answer to this question is no. Even if you moved to your home state permanently, working out of the New York office would mean that you would owe New York state income taxes -- and changing your withholding wouldn't be possible for state income tax purposes. If you were to establish domicile in the other state (which would mean that you have no plans to ever return to NY, which probably isn't the case for you), you could get out of NYC income tax, but you'd have to clear that with your firm.

[QContinuum]

Could this affect taxation? I’m originally not from New York and if moving back home (no income tax state) could mean saving thousands on taxes, even if I had to find a short term rental.

The answer to this question is no. Even if you moved to your home state permanently, working out of the New York office would mean that you would owe New York state income taxes -- and changing your withholding wouldn't be possible for state income tax purposes. If you were to establish domicile in the other state (which would mean that you have no plans to ever return to NY, which probably isn't the case for you), you could get out of NYC income tax, but you'd have to clear that with your firm.

Further - with the caveat that I'm not a tax lawyer, and this isn't tax advice - my understanding is that if you move to a higher-tax state, say, CA, you could owe additional income taxes to CA. Whereas, if you move to a lower or no-income-tax state, say, TX, you would still owe NY income taxes, so you wouldn't save anything.

But - with the caveat that I'm not an ethics lawyer either... - actually moving to another state (as opposed to working there temporarily, while on vacation/visiting family/etc.) would likely raise unauthorized practice of law issues, unless you're already barred in the other state. My gut instinct is that there's a difference between, say, a NY lawyer who takes advantage of this opportunity to join family in TX - this is the typical case of working while on vacation - vs. a NY lawyer who takes advantage of this opportunity to move out of NY and become a TX resident to save on taxes - this would likely require a TX bar license, because they'd no longer be a New Yorker temporarily working in Texas, but a Texan practicing law in Texas.

[Anonymous User]

Could this affect taxation? I’m originally not from New York and if moving back home (no income tax state) could mean saving thousands on taxes, even if I had to find a short term rental.

The answer to this question is no. Even if you moved to your home state permanently, working out of the New York office would mean that you would owe New York state income taxes -- and changing your withholding wouldn't be possible for state income tax purposes. If you were to establish domicile in the other state (which would mean that you have no plans to ever return to NY, which probably isn't the case for you), you could get out of NYC income tax, but you'd have to clear that with your firm.

IANATL but I (and all other members of my trial team) had to file income taxes after going to trial in another state for 3.5 weeks and doing various depositions, motion arguments, etc. in the weeks leading up to it. I only spent a combined total of six weeks or so there, living out of hotels, and certainly never established a domicile there. The firm allocated earnings and withheld on a pro rata basis based on days spent working in the other state, and I filed income taxes in both states that year. Again, IANATL, but surely if income taxes were owed in the other state in that scenario, they would be owed when semi-permanently setting up shop in another state for months on end, even if domicile is not established?

[Anonymous User]

Working in another state for any material period of time generally does have state tax complications both for you and your firm/its partners. "Material" for this purpose varies based on the state and what you do while you're there, but to be blunt there is zero chance that the state you visit is going to identify you as a taxpayer and collect from you unless you do something really dumb. The only realistic thorn is payroll at your firm if they find out what you're doing, because they'll want to withhold appropriately and ensure the firm/partners are correctly sourcing/reporting their income. So...just don't make a big fuss that might initiate something formal. You might still informally discuss with your main partner(s) - unless they hate you, it's not like they're going to go running to tell payroll, either.

Similarly, if for any material period of time you practice in a state where you aren't licensed, there are also definitely ethics complications. And as above, the bar of that state also is not going to realize what you're doing unless you do something stupid. The likely source of pressure on this front is risk management at your firm. So again, don't do something that triggers any kind of formal process.

In other words...just do it if you want to. This is a situation without precedent, which makes getting to a defensible (if not winning) position pretty easy. State bars are a joke, and so long as you have a tax domicile somewhere, that's good enough to stay in the "oops" category and out of the "go to jail" category. All told,it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission. Just don't be greedy and try to get better state tax rates based on where you temporarily go. Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered, etc.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah, I was working in Canada for a while at a friend's cottage (we went there before things got really bad) and came back to our home state about 2 weeks ago. One of my other coworkers decided to head down to her parent's place in Florida last week (not sure that was the best move, but oh well). So it's happening. Lot of coworkers are at their cottages

[QContinuum]

Similarly, if for any material period of time you practice in a state where you aren't licensed, there are also definitely ethics complications. And as above, the bar of that state also is not going to realize what you're doing unless you do something stupid. The likely source of pressure on this front is risk management at your firm. So again, don't do something that triggers any kind of formal process.

(Not a C&F lawyer but) cosign the above recommendation. Anecdotally, plenty of associates (and partners!) are currently living/working indefinitely in states they're not barred in. Under standard state bar rules, this would be problematic, but I strongly doubt there will be practical enforcement in this climate.

This is a situation without precedent, which makes getting to a defensible (if not winning) position pretty easy. State bars are a joke, and so long as you have a tax domicile somewhere, that's good enough to stay in the "oops" category and out of the "go to jail" category. All told,it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission. Just don't be greedy and try to get better state tax rates based on where you temporarily go. Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered, etc.

Again, completely agree. Again, not a C&F (or tax) lawyer, but - say you're a MA-barred (but not TX-barred) associate, riding this quarantine out in Texas and working remotely. On general legal principles (without any caselaw research, or any investigation of MA/TX-specific C&F rules) I could see a convincing argument that you're OK to practice from TX for the duration of the pandemic because 1) you're a MA resident who cannot physically return to MA because MA has barred all "non-essential" travel, 2) not only are you a MA resident, you're "constructively" working in MA (due to VPN), not TX, and 3) you're not holding yourself out as a TX lawyer, practicing TX law or soliciting clients in TX etc.

But the above argument - to the extent it may work - falls apart if, for tax purposes, you claim you've moved from MA to TX. Then you're just a Texan practicing law in Texas without a license.

[Babum]

Is anyone wfh from a different state or country? Did you ask for permission? How did that conversation go if you asked.

I'm wondering if is a dumb question to ask because of ethics rule etc that I would be practicing law in a place I'm not licensed in.

Funny thing is that I took a CLE not too long ago and the presenter was telling the story of an attorney under similar circumstances. This attorney worked in State A but lived in State B. For some personal reason, said attorney sought permission from the law firm to allow the attorney to work from home for an extended period of time. Law firm in turn reached out to the state bar who was of the opinion that such practice would constitute UPL.

[Keef]

I've always wondered how lawyers who lived on state borders (for example, the NYC lawyer who lives in CT or NJ) handle this. I presume s/he works from home a fair amount. Should they be barred in their home state as well? State bar associations seem to want it both ways. You're practicing law if you're advising on the laws of that particular state AND if you're physically located in that state, even if none of your clients or your firm are.

It's never clear to me how firms get comfortable advising on transactions or general corporate work for clients that are located in states in which said firm doesn't have an office. I presume it is because firms take the position where you're practicing law is generally where you are physically located. Otherwise, shouldn't all corporate attorneys be barred in DE? I think this is all an unclear mess.

[ghostoftraynor]

I've always wondered how lawyers who lived on state borders (for example, the NYC lawyer who lives in CT or NJ) handle this. I presume s/he works from home a fair amount. Should they be barred in their home state as well? State bar associations seem to want it both ways. You're practicing law if you're advising on the laws of that particular state AND if you're physically located in that state, even if none of your clients or your firm are.

It's never clear to me how firms get comfortable advising on transactions or general corporate work for clients that are located in states in which said firm doesn't have an office. I presume it is because firms take the position where you're practicing law is generally where you are physically located. Otherwise, shouldn't all corporate attorneys be barred in DE? I think this is all an unclear mess.

It's based on location of the attorney, not client or the applicable state law. The WFH in NJ is relevant but nobody is going to get dinged for that.

[QContinuum]

I've always wondered how lawyers who lived on state borders (for example, the NYC lawyer who lives in CT or NJ) handle this. I presume s/he works from home a fair amount. Should they be barred in their home state as well? State bar associations seem to want it both ways. You're practicing law if you're advising on the laws of that particular state AND if you're physically located in that state, even if none of your clients or your firm are.

It's never clear to me how firms get comfortable advising on transactions or general corporate work for clients that are located in states in which said firm doesn't have an office. I presume it is because firms take the position where you're practicing law is generally where you are physically located. Otherwise, shouldn't all corporate attorneys be barred in DE? I think this is all an unclear mess.

https://www.quora.com/How-do-corporate- ... n-Delaware

The thornier issue is with lawyers barred only in NY, but who live in CT/NJ and routinely work from home (let's put aside the current pandemic). In practice, the CT/NJ bars don't seem to care. But - while I'm not a C&F lawyer - I've admittedly never been able to figure out the basis for why this is okay. It seems to be more of something de facto tolerated in practice, even if not technically authorized under the law.

[replevin123]

Relevant: https://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/c ... achusetts/