The existential meaninglessness of the corporate/M&A biglaw practice Forum

[Neff]

How do other people find meaning or higher purpose in being a corporate/M&A associate (one of the largest practices in biglaw by headcount)? In my view, professions are meaningful either because they advance some moral good (e.g. teaching, medicine), are intellectually rewarding (academic, scientist), or simply fun (e.g. professional athlete, porn star). In comparison, it seems that corporate law (as it is generally practiced in the V100) is existentially meaningless because it is neither morally good, intellectually rewarding, nor fun.

Perspectives may differ, but I find zero moral goodness in helping rich people stay rich (which is, if you think about it, really what you are doing boiled down to its most basic essence). It is not intellectual rewarding when the most cerebral satisfaction I glean in any given day is composing an email striking that exactly right tone of informality and gravitas to go along with forwarding the due diligence request list that your "thx"-responding client would never appreciate. Finally, it is not fun because... well, it ain't like being a porn star is it.

So aside from the paycheck, how do other corporate associates find meaning in what they do? I am a fifth-year associate who has by any account done very well, always gotten excellent reviews -- the type of people-pleasing normie who stays up past midnight crafting meticulous emails putting to good use that Ivy League comparative literature degree. For the first four years I was content to pay off debt and save for a down payment, but with financial housekeeping now done and my net worth at 95th percentile for my age group, the gnawing in my soul can no longer be ignored. All this, what for?

[LBJ's Hair]

Have friends who who genuinely do *like* (dunno about love, but *like*) being M&A lawyers. They're (a) competitive, (b) like money, and (c) find some sort of personal/social meaning in being part of a law firm.

It's not like, about the deals themselves right - it's about what they represent. Beating the other side, pleasing the partner, teaching the junior something, surviving an all-nighter as a team. Same reason some people really love *playing* (not watching, playing) sports.

Regarding the intellectual fulfillment, moral purpose -- I don't think you're missing anything.

[soft blue]

For what it's worth, this feeling is common in like ~95% of white collar jobs. Hardly unique to the law.

[nealric]

I don't think "helping rich people stay rich" is a great description of the impact of corporate law jobs. A functional corporate law system, and the ability to govern business relationships through contract is fundamental to the wellbeing of the economy. If you had no corporate lawyers, it would be very difficult to build the schools teachers teach in or the hospitals doctors practice in.

I'm not saying corporate lawyers are saints by any means, but they are integral to the functioning of the broader economy. It may not feel meaningful like charity work, but even charity work often comes down to mundane things like making lists and sending flyers. Being a professional athlete consists of a lot of repetitive practice and training for an uncertain reward with people the world over ready to carp on your smallest mistake.

Ultimately, you aren't going to find meaning in life by simply picking the "right" career.

[malibustacy]

professions are meaningful either because they advance some moral good (e.g. teaching, medicine), are intellectually rewarding (academic, scientist), or simply fun (e.g. professional athlete, porn star)

If you actually know anything about any of those jobs, you'd know the meaningful parts are very rare and few between.

Life is a grind whatever you do. Most people don't do fun things.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

I don't think "helping rich people stay rich" is a great description of the impact of corporate law jobs. A functional corporate law system, and the ability to govern business relationships through contract is fundamental to the wellbeing of the economy. If you had no corporate lawyers, it would be very difficult to build the schools teachers teach in or the hospitals doctors practice in.

I'm not saying corporate lawyers are saints by any means, but they are integral to the functioning of the broader economy. It may not feel meaningful like charity work, but even charity work often comes down to mundane things like making lists and sending flyers.

I watched Margin Call last night and this is basically the gist of what Jeremy Irons tells Kevin Spacy

[Anonymous User]

My firm does private equity work, which is basically helping rich people avoid paying taxes and extract as much money from companies as possible.

I don't think it should exist and I feel bad helping them steal money from workers and poor people.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Oh and don’t forget all the syngeries your client will realize if you’re on the buy side. Helping facilitate layoffs is so rewarding.

[FND]

wiser people than me talk about the 80/20 rule: 80% of your time is spent on mundane boring tasks, and 20% on something good/intellectually challenging/fun. When evaluating a career/job, weigh the good/fun/challenging part at 80%, and the mundane part at 20%.

[s1m4]

only way I have been able to cope with it is to reframe the whole process a chance to succeed and overcome obstacles. Each finished deal is a test of endurance and resilience (like climbing Mt. Everest) for which I'm compensated very well and which shows me the extent of my abilities. That's the only way I can make this meaningful, though its pretty self-centered I guess.

[Anonymous User]

as a junior that has only done M&A and capital markets...I have really felt like part of a team when it comes to M&A. probably because it's much more 0 to 100 when things get busy and everyone suffers, but still . . . I like the feeling of going through things together to reach signing/closing.

[Anonymous User]

I'm in pretty much the same place as you and I'm just riding it out at this point. My interest in terms of being a lawyer or business side has waned substantially since I started out of law school and I'm at the point where I feel like I should just cash the paychecks until they fire me, and then figure something else out. Honestly, business in general is just kind of soul sucking and meaningless. If you're starting a company, or working for a a company you really believe in its one thing I guess, but doing general corporate/business work for giant corporations just seems like a shitty way to live life. At least at a firm, I'm at the point where I can work from home, take long lunches, generally get a long with my co-workers. We have unlimited vacation at my firm so I'll probably start using my years of capital build up to take long weekends more often and be more unavailable generally.

Edit - I get the teamwork aspect, but that shit gets old real fast. Plus, nothing like closing a deal and the client can't even spend 10 minutes writing a thank you email for ruining 6 months of your life.

[Neff]

professions are meaningful either because they advance some moral good (e.g. teaching, medicine), are intellectually rewarding (academic, scientist), or simply fun (e.g. professional athlete, porn star)

If you actually know anything about any of those jobs, you'd know the meaningful parts are very rare and few between.

Life is a grind whatever you do. Most people don't do fun things.

This is not incorrect, but I think I would be able to tolerate grindy bitchwork much more if it's for a cause I believe in. Problem is that for me I find zero purpose/meaning in the corporate biglaw business (despite the sheen of prestige and dollars). I don't identify with the vast majority of my clients (except for a few really nice/pleasant/good people, usually entrepreneurs or small-time investors) and fundamentally don't care about them aside from the fear of displeasing them and the naked pleasure of occasional praise for doing a good job.

As others point out below, it would be different if I were at a company I believe in, even if I'm doing the exact same things. Funny how that works, but somehow that sense of purpose matters. I would clean toilets if I believed in "the end." Biglaw (by virtue of the fact that is now a multinational spreadsheet business and not the "honorable profession" that it thought it once was) does a horrible job of even attempting to come up with any vision, purpose, or motivation besides bonus $$$.

[Neff]

I don't think "helping rich people stay rich" is a great description of the impact of corporate law jobs. A functional corporate law system, and the ability to govern business relationships through contract is fundamental to the wellbeing of the economy. If you had no corporate lawyers, it would be very difficult to build the schools teachers teach in or the hospitals doctors practice in.

I'm not saying corporate lawyers are saints by any means, but they are integral to the functioning of the broader economy. It may not feel meaningful like charity work, but even charity work often comes down to mundane things like making lists and sending flyers. Being a professional athlete consists of a lot of repetitive practice and training for an uncertain reward with people the world over ready to carp on your smallest mistake.

Ultimately, you aren't going to find meaning in life by simply picking the "right" career.

Yeah, I agree with that. I guess it's the fungibility of my role that bothers me. I think I do a good job, but if I died I know there would be 1,000 other law drones who can footnote a disclosure schedule or generate an issues list just as well. I concede some really effective rainmaker partners are not fungible (of course), but if I am not as a matter of principle willing to make the immense sacrifices in lifestyle, family, and health to grind my way to that level, why am I even doing what I am doing in the first place?

This is not to say that most other professions don't deal with this perceived lack of existential purpose (ask any jaded teacher at a mediocre public school) -- I mean every job is meaningless when you think about it from an extreme enough of an angle -- but since this is a legal employment board I am just wondering if others in the field feel the same way.

[LitBoutiqueAssociate]

Even the POTUS is replaceable. After all, we replace them every 4 or 8 years. If they die, we already have a chain of people lined up to step in.

If you personally don't find corporate work or M&A fulfilling, either from a intellectual or moral standpoint, you're certainly not alone, and it's time to consider making a switch.

[Anonymous User]

I package mortgage/asset backed securities, price them, and sell (sometimes in public issuance). It's actually pretty cushy. Far fewer fire drills that my M&A IBD counterparts live with daily. There is far more variety of tasks and even law skills are in play (contract/reg reviews basically, making sure the originators didn't accidentally put some shitty terms that will make it hard to package the stuff and new regs, of which there are new ones seemingly every week because every major regulator want a piece of the action, aren't going to be a problem.)

I tell myself every day I am helping borrowers get money to get their dream homes.

That I feel the need to post this anonymously should be telling. That I rarely tell anyone what I do in real life is pretty depressing too. lol.

[dabigchina]

Trying to find meaning in your job is a fool's errand. Nobody pays you to have a good time.

That being said, corporate biglaw sucks because it consumes your life so you literally don't have time to find meaning elsewhere. That's what's causing the existential angst.

[logical seasoning]

Trying to find meaning in your job is a fool's errand. Nobody pays you to have a good time.

That being said, corporate biglaw sucks because it consumes your life so you literally don't have time to find meaning elsewhere. That's what's causing the existential angst.

Agree with this. I do mind-numbing Government work, but I get to go home at 5PM every day with every other Friday off. I supplement by playing softball, training my dog in agility competitions, and teaching Yoga. I find value not in what I do 9-5, but what i do outside of it.

I also make less than 85K a year so yeah

[64Fl]

You might want to (1) try to go to a more chill firm (aka outside of the V100), (2) get more involved in firm pro bono, and (3) try to leverage your role to get on some local non-profit boards.

[Wild Card]

which is why most of the boomer partners are apex sociopaths. they have confronted this question again and again and they choose to persist: all for that paycheck.

but with due seriousness, it's just a job.

I imagine being a local prosecutor, but I also imagine that lifers get deeply depressed and stop drinking the koolaid when the cases and the people all start to look the same, and the local DA or mayor start pushing for soft-on-crime policies that cause crime to skyrocket and remind you of the powerlessness of your situation.

[lawbster]

I think what you're missing in M&A (especially PE) is the relationship with your clients. As you get more senior and develop relationships with your clients such that they become friends, you become the person called in to solve your friends' problems, help them look good, and that aspect can be really gratifying. Also at the senior level the job becomes more about business development and relationship managing than true deal work, which if you're a social person is also a pretty fun aspect to the job.

I think it's also ironic that you point to porn as a "fun" career that's acceptable when plenty of people would call that even more exploitative than biglaw, so perhaps that can serve as a reminder that it's all a matter of perspective...

[Anonymous User]

I think what you're missing in M&A (especially PE) is the relationship with your clients. As you get more senior and develop relationships with your clients such that they become friends, you become the person called in to solve your friends' problems, help them look good, and that aspect can be really gratifying. Also at the senior level the job becomes more about business development and relationship managing than true deal work, which if you're a social person is also a pretty fun aspect to the job.

I think it's also ironic that you point to porn as a "fun" career that's acceptable when plenty of people would call that even more exploitative than biglaw, so perhaps that can serve as a reminder that it's all a matter of perspective...

Yea, many partners I work with are friends with their clients. They get the benefit of getting calls at 6PM on Friday or urgent emails on vacation to "solve their problems" and "help them look good". Then they ask me to come to basketball games with them so I can listen to them talk about their kids private schools or how millennials are socialists. Look, I get it, in this country, money rules, and its ultimately better to be the bitch of a rich person or corporation, than be the guy stocking shelves at Walmart, but pretending that these relationships really mean anything,or that this kind of life is gratifying is pretty delusional. I've seen partners drop dead of a heart attack at like 51. They get a big firm wide email talking about them and then funeral details, then no one talks about them again. How gratifying, I'm sure the years and years of late nights were worth it.

Most of my partners aren't bad people, but they weren't smart enough to do something else when they had the chance and locked themselves into a life they find sort of miserable. If anything I feel bad for them. At least we're young enough to GTFO while we can.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

The best options for an experienced partner these days is to be a grifter and take advantage of these schmuck firms who will guarantee $x annually to poach you from a rival firm then just not really bother trying for those 2-3 years while you collect your money. You can probably get away with this twice.

[JusticeChuckleNutz]

I think what you're missing in M&A (especially PE) is the relationship with your clients. As you get more senior and develop relationships with your clients such that they become friends, you become the person called in to solve your friends' problems, help them look good, and that aspect can be really gratifying. Also at the senior level the job becomes more about business development and relationship managing than true deal work, which if you're a social person is also a pretty fun aspect to the job.

I think it's also ironic that you point to porn as a "fun" career that's acceptable when plenty of people would call that even more exploitative than biglaw, so perhaps that can serve as a reminder that it's all a matter of perspective...

Yea, many partners I work with are friends with their clients. They get the benefit of getting calls at 6PM on Friday or urgent emails on vacation to "solve their problems" and "help them look good". Then they ask me to come to basketball games with them so I can listen to them talk about their kids private schools or how millennials are socialists. Look, I get it, in this country, money rules, and its ultimately better to be the bitch of a rich person or corporation, than be the guy stocking shelves at Walmart, but pretending that these relationships really mean anything,or that this kind of life is gratifying is pretty delusional. I've seen partners drop dead of a heart attack at like 51. They get a big firm wide email talking about them and then funeral details, then no one talks about them again. How gratifying, I'm sure the years and years of late nights were worth it.

Most of my partners aren't bad people, but they weren't smart enough to do something else when they had the chance and locked themselves into a life they find sort of miserable. If anything I feel bad for them. At least we're young enough to GTFO while we can.

Damn, this hit home. A lot of truth in this tbh.

[Anonymous User]

I think what you're missing in M&A (especially PE) is the relationship with your clients. As you get more senior and develop relationships with your clients such that they become friends, you become the person called in to solve your friends' problems, help them look good, and that aspect can be really gratifying. Also at the senior level the job becomes more about business development and relationship managing than true deal work, which if you're a social person is also a pretty fun aspect to the job.

I think it's also ironic that you point to porn as a "fun" career that's acceptable when plenty of people would call that even more exploitative than biglaw, so perhaps that can serve as a reminder that it's all a matter of perspective...

Yea, many partners I work with are friends with their clients. They get the benefit of getting calls at 6PM on Friday or urgent emails on vacation to "solve their problems" and "help them look good". Then they ask me to come to basketball games with them so I can listen to them talk about their kids private schools or how millennials are socialists. Look, I get it, in this country, money rules, and its ultimately better to be the bitch of a rich person or corporation, than be the guy stocking shelves at Walmart, but pretending that these relationships really mean anything,or that this kind of life is gratifying is pretty delusional. I've seen partners drop dead of a heart attack at like 51. They get a big firm wide email talking about them and then funeral details, then no one talks about them again. How gratifying, I'm sure the years and years of late nights were worth it.

Most of my partners aren't bad people, but they weren't smart enough to do something else when they had the chance and locked themselves into a life they find sort of miserable. If anything I feel bad for them. At least we're young enough to GTFO while we can.

Eh, my S/O's dad was a partner at a V10, just retired. He worked late on weekdays and put in time on weekends, but was like, absolutely present in the kids' lives. Family is really close and, to put it bluntly, rich as fuck. Some people find ways to make it work.

Far as I can tell, my dad worked like, 90% as hard as a middle manager at F500 for 1/10 the money. And he liked his job way than less my S/O's dad liked his.

Just a data point, not saying either of these is super representative. My bias is definitely towards taking the sure thing (making a lot of money) vs the less-sure thing (being "fulfilled" in some metaphysical sense somewhere else making a lot less). That said, I get that the horrible hours, at some places, are also the "sure thing."