HLS Dope EIP Data Forum

[asmde]

Posting this here because I can't PM (New user).

Matriculating to HLS in the fall and was wondering if any alums could forward me the EIP data Tyler sent out after the EIP section on HLS Dope was removed a couple years ago. Happy to provide my email to verify my acceptance.

Thanks!

[clorox]

okay but why

[Libya]

okay but why

Clearly to find out only a handful of firms really care about grades, and to then will oneself into getting the requisite 7-8 Hs needed of course

[asmde]

okay but why

Clearly to find out only a handful of firms really care about grades, and to then will oneself into getting the requisite 7-8 Hs needed of course

Ok this is admittedly a fair critique. To add more context, I'm trying to decide to between H at sticker and CCN with $$ (not a full ride) and wanted to actually quantify what material differences (if any) exist in terms of V10 employment outcomes (want to do NYC transactional law). I know that SA class composition at the top firms is generally a wash between HLS and CLS/NYU, but I don't have a good sense about whether being at HLS affords more of an academic cushion when it comes to getting jobs at firms like STB, DPW, CSM etc...

I get this is early and it sounds neurotic, but I have a big financial decision to make and would like to take a data-driven approach to figuring out which school is best for me given my goals.

[Libya]

okay but why

Clearly to find out only a handful of firms really care about grades, and to then will oneself into getting the requisite 7-8 Hs needed of course

Ok this is admittedly a fair critique. To add more context, I'm trying to decide to between H at sticker and CCN with $$ (not a full ride) and wanted to actually quantify what material differences (if any) exist in terms of V10 employment outcomes (want to do NYC transactional law). I know that SA class composition at the top firms is generally a wash between HLS and CLS/NYU, but I don't have a good sense about whether being at HLS affords more of an academic cushion when it comes to getting jobs at firms like STB, DPW, CSM etc...

I get this is early and it sounds neurotic, but I have a big financial decision to make and would like to take a data-driven approach to figuring out which school is best for me given my goals.

If you’re goal is V10 (kind of weird cutoff since Cleary isn’t on the list) transactional I’d take the $$. Median at HLS~can~land you at most of those firms except for WLRK and S&C, but you will probably want above median grades for a good shot at CSM and
DPW. I’d imagine it’s the same pretty much at Columbia or NYU; if the class compositions are a wash that means there is probably not a lot more academic cushion.

[Anonymous User]

FWIW, to the extent you're not dead set on NYC and value geographic flexibility, HLS could give you a bigger academic cushion. Anecdotal of course, but I targeted non-NYC markets (including West Coast) with pretty weak ties and below-median grades and had a pretty easy time with V5, V10 and V15 firms.

I picked HLS over a lower T14 (not CCN) with $$ primarily because I didn't want New York, but I imagine HLS versus CCN for NYC transactional would be a wash in terms of academic cushion.

Unfortunately I don't have that EIP data either, though.

[The Lsat Airbender]

FWIW, to the extent you're not dead set on NYC and value geographic flexibility, HLS could give you a bigger academic cushion. Anecdotal of course, but I targeted non-NYC markets (including West Coast) with pretty weak ties and below-median grades and had a pretty easy time with V5, V10 and V15 firms.

Whether this is true or not, OP does want NYC transactional. (Ain't any Cravaths in Houston.) And that's an area where it's quite hard to distinguish CCN outcomes from HLS outcomes.

[Anonymous User]

okay but why

Clearly to find out only a handful of firms really care about grades, and to then will oneself into getting the requisite 7-8 Hs needed of course

Ok this is admittedly a fair critique. To add more context, I'm trying to decide to between H at sticker and CCN with $$ (not a full ride) and wanted to actually quantify what material differences (if any) exist in terms of V10 employment outcomes (want to do NYC transactional law). I know that SA class composition at the top firms is generally a wash between HLS and CLS/NYU, but I don't have a good sense about whether being at HLS affords more of an academic cushion when it comes to getting jobs at firms like STB, DPW, CSM etc...

I get this is early and it sounds neurotic, but I have a big financial decision to make and would like to take a data-driven approach to figuring out which school is best for me given my goals.

If you’re goal is V10 (kind of weird cutoff since Cleary isn’t on the list) transactional I’d take the $$. Median at HLS~can~land you at most of those firms except for WLRK and S&C, but you will probably want above median grades for a good shot at CSM and
DPW. I’d imagine it’s the same pretty much at Columbia or NYU; if the class compositions are a wash that means there is probably not a lot more academic cushion.

Yeah I know Cleary isn't included but I just use V10 for the sake of convenience (would obviously take CGSH over K&E/LW any day of the week).

And based on older CLS data and anecdotal reports from the CLS/NYU EIP threads it looks like CSM starts becoming competitive if you're top quarter and can interview well. Think S&C has a slightly higher GPA cutoff (3.6ish vs 3.5-3.55) but seem to give auto-offers to those above that threshold. From multiple older threads you need to be a Stone Scholar (top third) to have a realistic chance at any V10 from CLS (+CGSH -K&E/LW). Same story with NYU. And I think you're probably right regarding class composition and the size of the academic cushion, but I still think similar numbers in terms of offers accepted does not suggest that: (1) the yield on offers is the same at between H and C/N; and (2) that the width of the academic band the students fall in is the same between H vs C/N. Intuition would suggest that Cravath's yield at H would be a bit lower than at CLS/NYU considering all of the D.C. bound people who view the top NYC lit firms as backups. And I would think the width of the grade band at H is greater than it is for CLS/NYU because it is everywhere else, but the differential is the key.

My biggest concern is landing at a firm with-for lack of a better term- a"value add" corporate practice that regularly lands large, challenging transactions for good clients. So if it's really a wash (which the data would obviously help demonstrate) it would be a lot easier for me to take the money and convince my S/O and parents that turning down HLS is prudent.

Edit: this is OP. Didn’t mean to post anonymously.

[Wild Card]

Note, it will be very hard to get good grades wherever you go. You can't bank on ranking in the top half or top 40% of your class just because you had good grades in college and a high LSAT score. In that case, Harvard is the safer choice. Even if you end up with lackluster grades at HLS, you would be able to end up at a V50 with an exceptional corporate group (White & Case, Ropes & Gray), rather than a V100 or something.

[Libya]

Note, it will be very hard to get good grades wherever you go. You can't bank on ranking in the top half or top 40% of your class just because you had good grades in college and a high LSAT score. In that case, Harvard is the safer choice. Even if you end up with lackluster grades at HLS, you would be able to end up at a V50 with an exceptional corporate group (White & Case, Ropes & Gray), rather than a V100 or something.

True but OP should probably expect to be at median if they put in effort, and given median grades they will end up at a good corporate group from either school. Is DPW worth an extra $45,000 when you would make the same amount of money working at Milbank or White & Case? And for the record, bad grades at HLS are still bad grades that can be a pain to overcome. I’d imagine it’s no cakewalk to end up at a market paying NYC firm with a sub 3.0 1L GPA, and there’s a very real chance of striking out or at least having to work at a lower v100 blackbox firm

[asmde]

Note, it will be very hard to get good grades wherever you go. You can't bank on ranking in the top half or top 40% of your class just because you had good grades in college and a high LSAT score. In that case, Harvard is the safer choice. Even if you end up with lackluster grades at HLS, you would be able to end up at a V50 with an exceptional corporate group (White & Case, Ropes & Gray), rather than a V100 or something.

True but OP should probably expect to be at median if they put in effort, and given median grades they will end up at a good corporate group from either school. Is DPW worth an extra $45,000 when you would make the same amount of money working at Milbank or White & Case? And for the record, bad grades at HLS are still bad grades that can be a pain to overcome. I’d imagine it’s no cakewalk to end up at a market paying NYC firm with a sub 3.0 1L GPA, and there’s a very real chance of striking out or at least having to work at a lower v100 blackbox firm

OP here. I would actually say DPW is worth an extra $45K simply because they have a robust M&A practice (band 2 I think) and a band 1 Capital Markets practice. Milbank/W&C basically does a shit ton of routine, cookie cutter cap markets work that doesn’t appeal to me. Equal pay does not imply equality in terms of work. Though if I wanted to do creditor side RX, Milbank isn’t a bad option. But DPW is top of the pile in that area so I still would say it’s worth paying more.

[The Lsat Airbender]

My biggest concern is landing at a firm with-for lack of a better term- a"value add" corporate practice that regularly lands large, challenging transactions for good clients. So if it's really a wash (which the data would obviously help demonstrate) it would be a lot easier for me to take the money and convince my S/O and parents that turning down HLS is prudent.

Ask your parents if they're willing to cut a check for the $100k (or whatever it is) difference in price. That should suss out whether they genuinely think it's a good investment or just want to brag on you at dinner parties.

True but OP should probably expect to be at median if they put in effort, and given median grades they will end up at a good corporate group from either school. Is DPW worth an extra $45,000 when you would make the same amount of money working at Milbank or White & Case? And for the record, bad grades at HLS are still bad grades that can be a pain to overcome. I’d imagine it’s no cakewalk to end up at a market paying NYC firm with a sub 3.0 1L GPA, and there’s a very real chance of striking out or at least having to work at a lower v100 blackbox firm

I agree with you overall but one has to actively fuck up to get a sub-3.0 1L GPA at a H/P school (or Chicago, for what that's worth).

[trebekismyhero]

If the difference in COA between H and CCN is more than $50k there is no reason to pick H when the goal is NY corporate unless your parents want to pay the difference. Even then I would rather they give me the money than Harvard

[Libya]

My biggest concern is landing at a firm with-for lack of a better term- a"value add" corporate practice that regularly lands large, challenging transactions for good clients. So if it's really a wash (which the data would obviously help demonstrate) it would be a lot easier for me to take the money and convince my S/O and parents that turning down HLS is prudent.

Ask your parents if they're willing to cut a check for the $100k (or whatever it is) difference in price. That should suss out whether they genuinely think it's a good investment or just want to brag on you at dinner parties.

True but OP should probably expect to be at median if they put in effort, and given median grades they will end up at a good corporate group from either school. Is DPW worth an extra $45,000 when you would make the same amount of money working at Milbank or White & Case? And for the record, bad grades at HLS are still bad grades that can be a pain to overcome. I’d imagine it’s no cakewalk to end up at a market paying NYC firm with a sub 3.0 1L GPA, and there’s a very real chance of striking out or at least having to work at a lower v100 blackbox firm

I agree with you overall but one has to actively fuck up to get a sub-3.0 1L GPA at a H/P school (or Chicago, for what that's worth).

It is usually true that it is hard to get worse than all Ps. And the people I know actively tried to do poorly basically. Although some people have unexpected grief or depression to deal with which can change the scenario of course

[cjm2018]

OP here. I would actually say DPW is worth an extra $45K simply because they have a robust M&A practice (band 2 I think) and a band 1 Capital Markets practice. Milbank/W&C basically does a shit ton of routine, cookie cutter cap markets work that doesn’t appeal to me. Equal pay does not imply equality in terms of work. Though if I wanted to do creditor side RX, Milbank isn’t a bad option. But DPW is top of the pile in that area so I still would say it’s worth paying more.

OP, what are you basing your dead-set preference for a "robust M&A practice" at a V10 firm on? There are countless corporate practice groups that people enjoy tremendously (and litigation practices, too). It seems a bit premature to base your entire decision on one niche practice group out of many. But maybe you have a good explanation for the preference.

Either way, I think the real question is about your confidence in your enjoyment of the junior-associate grunt work on high-value M&A deals. Is it really enough to make a multi-faceted bet that will have you willing to pony up an extra $45k? (Or more (1) once you factor in the interest that accrues every year while in law school; and/or (2) also considering that you haven't specified the difference in price, either, and it could be even more). What if you really have no interest in working in that practice group after law school and you end up in a group at a firm where you had no need to take on the extra bills? Also consider, as one poster said above, that top-third of the class at any law school is not even close to guaranteed. I saw even the "brightest" and "most-qualified" in terms of LSAT and undergrad records tank in law school.

[PeanutsNJam]

I'm a litigator so all this NYC corp talk is over my head but why do people care about S&C vs DPW or Cleary or whatever? No matter where you go, you're going to grind for a few years (for identical pay) and then lateral in-house anyway. I have no idea how this 0L is so intricately knowledgeable about DPW's practice groups vs Milbank or what the "quality" of a jr associate's work in "cookie cutter" Cap Markets vs M&A is like.

Law students, and especially 0Ls, really need to learn that, after law school, rankings (especially granulated differences about what is a "V10" and "V15") are irrelevant, even among NYC corp firms.

Whether Cleary is a V10 depends on the relative position of Saturn and Neptune the preceding year, FYI.

You'll know how much of a joke the Vault rankings are after you fill out one of their surveys.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a litigator so all this NYC corp talk is over my head but why do people care about S&C vs DPW or Cleary or whatever? No matter where you go, you're going to grind for a few years (for identical pay) and then lateral in-house anyway. I have no idea how this 0L is so intricately knowledgeable about DPW's practice groups vs Milbank or what the "quality" of a jr associate's work in "cookie cutter" Cap Markets vs M&A is like.

Law students, and especially 0Ls, really need to learn that, after law school, rankings (especially granulated differences about what is a "V10" and "V15") are irrelevant, even among NYC corp firms.

Whether Cleary is a V10 depends on the relative position of Saturn and Neptune the preceding year, FYI.

You'll know how much of a joke the Vault rankings are after you fill out one of their surveys.

Is this true? As a v20 Corp junior my understanding is that you generally have better exit ops coming out of a place like Simpson or s&c than you do places like my firm, even for corporate

If only because the clientele you end up working for more often

[PeanutsNJam]

I'm a litigator so all this NYC corp talk is over my head but why do people care about S&C vs DPW or Cleary or whatever? No matter where you go, you're going to grind for a few years (for identical pay) and then lateral in-house anyway. I have no idea how this 0L is so intricately knowledgeable about DPW's practice groups vs Milbank or what the "quality" of a jr associate's work in "cookie cutter" Cap Markets vs M&A is like.

Law students, and especially 0Ls, really need to learn that, after law school, rankings (especially granulated differences about what is a "V10" and "V15") are irrelevant, even among NYC corp firms.

Whether Cleary is a V10 depends on the relative position of Saturn and Neptune the preceding year, FYI.

You'll know how much of a joke the Vault rankings are after you fill out one of their surveys.

Is this true? As a v20 Corp junior my understanding is that you generally have better exit ops coming out of a place like Simpson or s&c than you do places like my firm, even for corporate

If only because the clientele you end up working for more often

I don't think anybody has data on which firms have the "best" exit options (query as to what "best" even means). Just look up LinkedIn profiles of in-house counsel and see where they went. You'll see the full Vault spectrum represented. You'll even come across firm names you don't recognize.

My understanding is that the quality of your exit options is mostly reliant upon: (1) your staffing luck (getting staffed on cases for clients that just happen to have openings when you're experienced enough to lateral), (2) your personal network/likability, (3) the nature/demand of your practice, and (4) your performance as an associate. Whether you have Simpson or Sidley on your resume is not going to be as important as 1-4.

I mean if we're talking about two potential applicants who are identical in every respect aside from whether they work at Simpson or Sidley, sure, Simpson is going to move the needle, but that's a silly hypo.

[anonbanker]

Hey look it's the WUSTLer coming in to hijack a prestige thread