Regret BigLaw? Lower paying job better financially? Forum

[futuresuccessstory]

So I’m an associate at a V10 law firm and when I first found TLS years ago as an OL I was obsessed with getting a prestigious big law job.

I live in NYC and with our high taxes and high cost of living. I can’t help but to think if I had went to a mid-range law firm that starts at 150,000/ 160,000 with a lower cost of living and taxes I would have been the better outcome financially. I look at my peers at these firms buying their dream home etc. and I feel regret. After NYC taxes our take home pay is probably the same.

While I like my work my practice group is very NYC corporate and I feel like I’ve trapped myself into the demanding biglaw hours even if I go in-house to a financial institution, high cost of living life.

What are the other benefits of vault # big law I’m overlooking compared to a midsized firm?

[PeanutsNJam]

You're not trapped into similar hours in in-house, and that's the primary benefit of being at a prestigious NYC corporate shop: exit options and national (even global in some cases) portability. It's options.

Also, some people care about where they live, so if you love NYC or SF or DC, you kinda need as much money as possible, but if you love Cleveland or something, you don't need to make nearly as much money.

Midlaw also has salary compression so the gap grows wider as seniority grows. The real ticket is cravath scale in a low CoL place like Texas.

[Anonymous User]

You're not trapped into similar hours in in-house, and that's the primary benefit of being at a prestigious NYC corporate shop: exit options and national (even global in some cases) portability. It's options.

Also, some people care about where they live, so if you love NYC or SF or DC, you kinda need as much money as possible, but if you love Cleveland or something, you don't need to make nearly as much money.

Midlaw also has salary compression so the gap grows wider as seniority grows. The real ticket is cravath scale in a low CoL place like Texas.

Agreed with the bolded/underlined above.

I've been thinking about this for a long time. Is someone at a NYC v10 making 200,000 and billing 2200 hours/year really that much better off than someone at a midsized firm in DE, FL, or TX (no state income tax) making 100,000 and billing 1500 hours/year.

[dabigchina]

One thing - not everyone has the option of getting a 150k midlaw job in flyover country.

also - I have a feeling this is going to devolve into another texas v ny thread...

[PeanutsNJam]

One thing - not everyone has the option of getting a 150k midlaw job in flyover country.

also - I have a feeling this is going to devolve into another texas v ny thread...

Eh, I turned down ~140k midlaw in flyover country for NYC biglaw, but I'm a city rat and I love being in the city. To me, spending my 20's and early 30's in NYC is worth not being able to buy a house. If you're competitive for NYC biglaw, you're competitive for flyover biglaw, or midlaw, or whatever you want to call it. Tons of people from my school struck out at cravath scale biglaw but got midlaw offers.

I also know and work with people who have turned down market Texas firms for NYC. There are people who value being in NYC. If you're the type of person who could not care less about living in NYC or any other big city, my advice is GTFO because you're wasting your money here. At least go to Chicago if you still want to be in a big city.

But if you're of the unfortunate breed that loves big metropolises, NYC is tbh your only real option in the United States. SF is for people who can't live w/o being on the water and also want to be in the ~center~ of tech innovation and want to work in that industry. Lots of classmates and peers who went to SF did so because of family as well.

If you're the type of person who just wants to maximize QoL at home and couldn't care less what's not: (1) your home, and (2) your office, then do whatever you can to get to Texas.

[Anonymous User]

I personally found getting midlaw harder than biglaw from a T13. One, a lot of these shops hire one or two new attorneys a year. Second, you're competing with order of the coif regional candidates that can't get looks in big law due to bad luck or are just super into staying in state. Meanwhile, I did my 2L SA at NYC V50 that was basically like "are you around median? . . . Welcome!"

[JusticeSquee]

You're not trapped into similar hours in in-house, and that's the primary benefit of being at a prestigious NYC corporate shop: exit options and national (even global in some cases) portability. It's options.

Also, some people care about where they live, so if you love NYC or SF or DC, you kinda need as much money as possible, but if you love Cleveland or something, you don't need to make nearly as much money.

Midlaw also has salary compression so the gap grows wider as seniority grows. The real ticket is cravath scale in a low CoL place like Texas.

Agreed with the bolded/underlined above.

I've been thinking about this for a long time. Is someone at a NYC v10 making 200,000 and billing 2200 hours/year really that much better off than someone at a midsized firm in DE, FL, or TX (no state income tax) making 100,000 and billing 1500 hours/year.

Disagree with the above.

See https://www.texasmonthly.com/news/houst ... ion-costs/

[lawlo]

You're not trapped into similar hours in in-house, and that's the primary benefit of being at a prestigious NYC corporate shop: exit options and national (even global in some cases) portability. It's options.

Also, some people care about where they live, so if you love NYC or SF or DC, you kinda need as much money as possible, but if you love Cleveland or something, you don't need to make nearly as much money.

Midlaw also has salary compression so the gap grows wider as seniority grows. The real ticket is cravath scale in a low CoL place like Texas.

Agreed with the bolded/underlined above.

I've been thinking about this for a long time. Is someone at a NYC v10 making 200,000 and billing 2200 hours/year really that much better off than someone at a midsized firm in DE, FL, or TX (no state income tax) making 100,000 and billing 1500 hours/year.

Disagree with the above.

See https://www.texasmonthly.com/news/houst ... ion-costs/

That study is dumb. Living in Houston is $79 more expensive a month than NYC? Yeah right. The figure they use for housing costs gets you a single room in a shared, crappy apartment outside of Manhattan. In Houston, it's a one bedroom 30 mins away from work at worst with no dirty subway ride. Also, you can live less than 20 minutes away from downtown Houston for less than $2000 a month. And yes, you get to have your *own* apartment. I know, novel concept for 30 year old NYC big law lawyers that have to share a kitchen. Average car payment is what? $300 a month? Add gas?

No state income tax, way way way better bang for your buck with real estate (oh, you can actually buy a home in Houston), and overall things are just cheaper. It's a no-brainer.

[dabigchina]

also - I have a feeling this is going to devolve into another texas v ny thread...

[ghostoftraynor]

Texas doesn't have bodegas.

[trebekismyhero]

I believe you are almost always better off to take big law than midlaw. First, the money on cravath scale is so much better than most mid-law, especially as you get more senior. Second and most importantly, as PeanutsNJam said at the beginning, big law is about exit options. Going to big law will allow you to lateral to midlaw if you want, but it also makes it a lot easier to go in-house because of the clients and also your resume.

Also, I have a decent number of friends that have worked at firms that are between like 40 and 100 attorneys. And while none of them have worked the worst of big law hours, they are still not working 9-5. They are expected to be responsive and still have to work weekends. I don't think their work-life balance is that different than the average big law associate. It is easier to make partner at most midlaw firms, but if that is what you want, you can always lateral to midlaw after a couple years in big law.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Some friends that work in midlaw or small law have worse hours than I do. But even in the event the work life balance is better, the pay difference isn’t worth it since it’s not THAT much better. You still work at a firm with all the baggage that entails.

[tyroneslothrop1]

Yes, it is not the case that midlaw equals 1600 hours for $150,000. Most "midlaw" firms in my market have 1800 hour minimums. However, you earn little to no bonus at that number of hours. I billed 2200 hours at a midlaw firm last year.

[nealric]

You're not trapped into similar hours in in-house, and that's the primary benefit of being at a prestigious NYC corporate shop: exit options and national (even global in some cases) portability. It's options.

Also, some people care about where they live, so if you love NYC or SF or DC, you kinda need as much money as possible, but if you love Cleveland or something, you don't need to make nearly as much money.

Midlaw also has salary compression so the gap grows wider as seniority grows. The real ticket is cravath scale in a low CoL place like Texas.

Agreed with the bolded/underlined above.

I've been thinking about this for a long time. Is someone at a NYC v10 making 200,000 and billing 2200 hours/year really that much better off than someone at a midsized firm in DE, FL, or TX (no state income tax) making 100,000 and billing 1500 hours/year.

Disagree with the above.

See https://www.texasmonthly.com/news/houst ... ion-costs/

Yeah, I would tend to agree that this study doesn't really apply. Cost structures for someone making "median income" are not all that relevant for someone making $250k+

The sort of person that article is talking about makes $60k and wants a 3-4 bedroom house in the exurbs with a ton of space. They then commute all the way to downtown Houston (3 hours round trip). Those folks often discount how expensive it is to make that long commute and how soul sucking sitting in traffic that long can be. When you make $60k a year, putting 20k miles a year on your car (any car) will seriously eat into your budget.

But a biglaw associate isn't in that position. If you don't want to commute, you could easily live within 10-15 minutes of downtown (or even in downtown itself) in a nice one bedroom for less than you could get even the tiniest NYC studio. If you want the big house and have a family, you don't have to live out in the exurbs like the hypothetical median earner. You can afford a place with a decent amount of space much closer in. You won't save much over a small NYC apartment, but your living situation will be considerably more luxurious.

Also, taxes take a much bigger bite out of the high earner's income (percentage wise). The tax differences alone between NYC and Texas will pay for the transportation cost delta. Finally, the article discounts that a lot of people in the NYC area do mega commutes too. There were partners at my old firm who would commute over an hour each way, and train passes or tolls/parking for commutes like that tend to be even worse than a long Texas commute.

[JusticeSquee]

You're not trapped into similar hours in in-house, and that's the primary benefit of being at a prestigious NYC corporate shop: exit options and national (even global in some cases) portability. It's options.

Also, some people care about where they live, so if you love NYC or SF or DC, you kinda need as much money as possible, but if you love Cleveland or something, you don't need to make nearly as much money.

Midlaw also has salary compression so the gap grows wider as seniority grows. The real ticket is cravath scale in a low CoL place like Texas.

Agreed with the bolded/underlined above.

I've been thinking about this for a long time. Is someone at a NYC v10 making 200,000 and billing 2200 hours/year really that much better off than someone at a midsized firm in DE, FL, or TX (no state income tax) making 100,000 and billing 1500 hours/year.

Disagree with the above.

See https://www.texasmonthly.com/news/houst ... ion-costs/

That study is dumb. Living in Houston is $79 more expensive a month than NYC? Yeah right. The figure they use for housing costs gets you a single room in a shared, crappy apartment outside of Manhattan. In Houston, it's a one bedroom 30 mins away from work at worst with no dirty subway ride. Also, you can live less than 20 minutes away from downtown Houston for less than $2000 a month. And yes, you get to have your *own* apartment. I know, novel concept for 30 year old NYC big law lawyers that have to share a kitchen. Average car payment is what? $300 a month? Add gas?

No state income tax, way way way better bang for your buck with real estate (oh, you can actually buy a home in Houston), and overall things are just cheaper. It's a no-brainer.

Disagree with that. I've lived in Houston and in NYC. Houston's "affordability" is a relic of a bygone era. Show me this spacious, 1-bedroom apartment in Houston 20 minutes from downtown for less than $2,000, I'm waiting bro. Also lol the average car payment is not $300/month, closer to $500 actually. Plus insurance, gas, etc. The tax savings are real though, I'll grant you that. And sure the subways are pretty dirty, not as dirty as Houston's hobo-filled joke of a "downtown" but to each their own I guess lil breh.

[dabigchina]

You're not trapped into similar hours in in-house, and that's the primary benefit of being at a prestigious NYC corporate shop: exit options and national (even global in some cases) portability. It's options.

Also, some people care about where they live, so if you love NYC or SF or DC, you kinda need as much money as possible, but if you love Cleveland or something, you don't need to make nearly as much money.

Midlaw also has salary compression so the gap grows wider as seniority grows. The real ticket is cravath scale in a low CoL place like Texas.

Agreed with the bolded/underlined above.

I've been thinking about this for a long time. Is someone at a NYC v10 making 200,000 and billing 2200 hours/year really that much better off than someone at a midsized firm in DE, FL, or TX (no state income tax) making 100,000 and billing 1500 hours/year.

Disagree with the above.

See https://www.texasmonthly.com/news/houst ... ion-costs/

That study is dumb. Living in Houston is $79 more expensive a month than NYC? Yeah right. The figure they use for housing costs gets you a single room in a shared, crappy apartment outside of Manhattan. In Houston, it's a one bedroom 30 mins away from work at worst with no dirty subway ride. Also, you can live less than 20 minutes away from downtown Houston for less than $2000 a month. And yes, you get to have your *own* apartment. I know, novel concept for 30 year old NYC big law lawyers that have to share a kitchen. Average car payment is what? $300 a month? Add gas?

No state income tax, way way way better bang for your buck with real estate (oh, you can actually buy a home in Houston), and overall things are just cheaper. It's a no-brainer.

Disagree with that. I've lived in Houston and in NYC. Houston's "affordability" is a relic of a bygone era. Show me this spacious, 1-bedroom apartment in Houston 20 minutes from downtown for less than $2,000, I'm waiting bro. Also lol the average car payment is not $300/month, closer to $500 actually. Plus insurance, gas, etc. The tax savings are real though, I'll grant you that. And sure the subways are pretty dirty, not as dirty as Houston's hobo-filled joke of a "downtown" but to each their own I guess lil breh.

1 bedroom only 30 mins from downtown for under 3k??? Where the hell do I sign up?

Edit: if your car payment is 500/month, you are either driving way too much car.or suck at negotiating (or both).

[PeanutsNJam]

You're not trapped into similar hours in in-house, and that's the primary benefit of being at a prestigious NYC corporate shop: exit options and national (even global in some cases) portability. It's options.

Also, some people care about where they live, so if you love NYC or SF or DC, you kinda need as much money as possible, but if you love Cleveland or something, you don't need to make nearly as much money.

Midlaw also has salary compression so the gap grows wider as seniority grows. The real ticket is cravath scale in a low CoL place like Texas.

Agreed with the bolded/underlined above.

I've been thinking about this for a long time. Is someone at a NYC v10 making 200,000 and billing 2200 hours/year really that much better off than someone at a midsized firm in DE, FL, or TX (no state income tax) making 100,000 and billing 1500 hours/year.

Disagree with the above.

See https://www.texasmonthly.com/news/houst ... ion-costs/

That study is dumb. Living in Houston is $79 more expensive a month than NYC? Yeah right. The figure they use for housing costs gets you a single room in a shared, crappy apartment outside of Manhattan. In Houston, it's a one bedroom 30 mins away from work at worst with no dirty subway ride. Also, you can live less than 20 minutes away from downtown Houston for less than $2000 a month. And yes, you get to have your *own* apartment. I know, novel concept for 30 year old NYC big law lawyers that have to share a kitchen. Average car payment is what? $300 a month? Add gas?

No state income tax, way way way better bang for your buck with real estate (oh, you can actually buy a home in Houston), and overall things are just cheaper. It's a no-brainer.

Disagree with that. I've lived in Houston and in NYC. Houston's "affordability" is a relic of a bygone era. Show me this spacious, 1-bedroom apartment in Houston 20 minutes from downtown for less than $2,000, I'm waiting bro. Also lol the average car payment is not $300/month, closer to $500 actually. Plus insurance, gas, etc. The tax savings are real though, I'll grant you that. And sure the subways are pretty dirty, not as dirty as Houston's hobo-filled joke of a "downtown" but to each their own I guess lil breh.

I'm a NYC stan but it took 2 seconds to find these in Houston bruh:

https://www.apartments.com/amli-river-o ... x/getp79x/

https://www.apartments.com/post-510-houston-tx/lyeqrme/

https://www.apartments.com/3800-main-ho ... x/rdczdw0/

I fucking love NYC but denying the ridiculously low CoL in Houston relative to NYC/SF is just lol. No idea if these are 20 min from downtown, but it's not going to be hard to find something close to 2k that is >600 sq ft in a luxury building.

Average car payment depends on what car you buy.

I do think comparing the Houston subway to NYC subway is ridiculous as NYC subway blows Houston subway out of the water due to coverage alone.

[ksm6969]

Show me this spacious, 1-bedroom apartment in Houston 20 minutes from downtown for less than $2,000, I'm waiting bro.

https://www.har.com/homedetail/2100-wel ... 14/3652929

But why rent when you can buy new high end construction for $300k about 3 miles from Downtown. https://www.har.com/homedetail/2100-wel ... 14/3652929

But on a lawyer salary and no income tax, might as well go for the bona fide mansion 3 miles from downtown for $545k. https://www.redfin.com/TX/Houston/2433- ... e/29890659

[lawlo]

You're not trapped into similar hours in in-house, and that's the primary benefit of being at a prestigious NYC corporate shop: exit options and national (even global in some cases) portability. It's options.

Also, some people care about where they live, so if you love NYC or SF or DC, you kinda need as much money as possible, but if you love Cleveland or something, you don't need to make nearly as much money.

Midlaw also has salary compression so the gap grows wider as seniority grows. The real ticket is cravath scale in a low CoL place like Texas.

Agreed with the bolded/underlined above.

I've been thinking about this for a long time. Is someone at a NYC v10 making 200,000 and billing 2200 hours/year really that much better off than someone at a midsized firm in DE, FL, or TX (no state income tax) making 100,000 and billing 1500 hours/year.

Disagree with the above.

See https://www.texasmonthly.com/news/houst ... ion-costs/

That study is dumb. Living in Houston is $79 more expensive a month than NYC? Yeah right. The figure they use for housing costs gets you a single room in a shared, crappy apartment outside of Manhattan. In Houston, it's a one bedroom 30 mins away from work at worst with no dirty subway ride. Also, you can live less than 20 minutes away from downtown Houston for less than $2000 a month. And yes, you get to have your *own* apartment. I know, novel concept for 30 year old NYC big law lawyers that have to share a kitchen. Average car payment is what? $300 a month? Add gas?

No state income tax, way way way better bang for your buck with real estate (oh, you can actually buy a home in Houston), and overall things are just cheaper. It's a no-brainer.

Disagree with that. I've lived in Houston and in NYC. Houston's "affordability" is a relic of a bygone era. Show me this spacious, 1-bedroom apartment in Houston 20 minutes from downtown for less than $2,000, I'm waiting bro. Also lol the average car payment is not $300/month, closer to $500 actually. Plus insurance, gas, etc. The tax savings are real though, I'll grant you that. And sure the subways are pretty dirty, not as dirty as Houston's hobo-filled joke of a "downtown" but to each their own I guess lil breh.

Why do you speak like that?

Also, Google circuit apartments in Eado. Apartments less than 15 mins from downtown for less than $2000. And I don't plan on having a $500 car payment. I plan to buy some less than $20k with a bit of a down-payment. I'm hoping not much more than 300. This is all realistic and shows how out of touch you are.

Also, are you seriously implying there's a bigger homeless problem in Houston? Grow up.

[texanslimjim]

Disagree with that. I've lived in Houston and in NYC. Houston's "affordability" is a relic of a bygone era. Show me this spacious, 1-bedroom apartment in Houston 20 minutes from downtown for less than $2,000, I'm waiting bro. Also lol the average car payment is not $300/month, closer to $500 actually. Plus insurance, gas, etc. The tax savings are real though, I'll grant you that. And sure the subways are pretty dirty, not as dirty as Houston's hobo-filled joke of a "downtown" but to each their own I guess lil breh.

I live in a 2 bedroom apartment for $1600/mo rent, 10-15 minutes from downtown Houston. The apartment complex is quite new and has great amenities, too -- I could have found something for ~$1200-1300 if I wanted to slum it. My car payment is $300/month. You lose.

I absolutely would be in NYC if that had been my only well-paying option, but the cost-of-living advantage in Houston is real. Especially for people who earn well above median income because each dollar above median goes farther in Houston. E.g. if you can afford to spend an extra $1000/mo on housing that will get you a much bigger upgrade in Houston than it will in NYC.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

So Houston isn’t as cheap, but still a lot cheaper than other major markets. That’s what we’re arguing here?

[burritotaco]

Some friends that work in midlaw or small law have worse hours than I do. But even in the event the work life balance is better, the pay difference isn’t worth it since it’s not THAT much better. You still work at a firm with all the baggage that entails.

Same with everyone I know in mid law. Although most work 1900-2000 (as opposed to the 2200+ in big law), they get paid far less and their day-to-day schedules are not that different. They are still on call all the time, work weekends, and are often miserable. I know a few who had even worse experiences when they lateraled to big law because there are awful partners everywhere.

I left big law for a government job. I took a huge pay cut, but I am significantly happier, less stressed, and overall more satisfied with life. The day I paid off my loans I started looking to leave. I hated big law and never want to go back. I can't express how great it is not to have to check your work email after you leave work.

[nealric]

So Houston isn’t as cheap, but still a lot cheaper than other major markets. That’s what we’re arguing here?

Basically. 20 years ago, Houston could probably be properly classified as cheap, but it had a decent run up in property values over the last decade or so. The shale bust and Harvey did put a bit of a damper on price increases though. It's not as cheap as a small town in the Midwest, but it's still much cheaper than NYC.

On a separate note, arguing about monthly car payments is silly. If you are in biglaw, you shouldn't be living paycheck to paycheck, so monthlies are irrelevant. Total cost of ownership is all that matters. I'd also say it's not a good idea for a brand new biglaw associate to go out and buy a new car. Get a cheap commuting appliance until you are established and out of debt.

[PeanutsNJam]

So Houston isn’t as cheap, but still a lot cheaper than other major markets. That’s what we’re arguing here?

Of the cities where there are more than 1 or 2 biglaw firms paying Cravath scale, Houston has one of the lowest CoL. Houston would be one of the last places I want to go but there is no denying that Houston has incredible take-home pay to CoL ratio.

[texanslimjim]

Yeah, it's the nexus of Cravath scale and middling CoL that makes Houston notable. Most cities with comparable CoL do not pay associates based on the New York market.

On a separate note, arguing about monthly car payments is silly. If you are in biglaw, you shouldn't be living paycheck to paycheck, so monthlies are irrelevant. Total cost of ownership is all that matters. I'd also say it's not a good idea for a brand new biglaw associate to go out and buy a new car. Get a cheap commuting appliance until you are established and out of debt.

I was responding to the ridiculous estimate that a typical young Houston lawyer will have a $500/mo car payment. On a reasonable financing schedule, that suggests borrowing $30k or more -- but as much as it may seem like it, it's not actually a rule that a young biglaw associate has to buy a BMW, Audi, or (in Texas) pickup truck.

I agree that even spending ~$20k or less on a cheaper new car is an unnecessary luxury for most young lawyers, but that just enhances the point.