What is a good hourly wage? Forum

[The Avatar]

My friends in Biglaw make 100-200k+ but they also work 12-14 hr days.

What is a good hourly wage in law? This is important for me to figure out because I have been considering a switch out of the federal government to private practice/management consulting.

[nealric]

It's all relative. There are lawyers who make $20 an hour and lawyers make $2,000 an hour. Not sure what comparing what's "good" gets you other than making you feel superior/inadequate.

It's pretty straightforward to do the rough hourly math if you have an idea of how many hours a position involves. But be aware that there are biglaw gigs that are 50 hours a week and biglaw gigs that are 100 hours a week, so you are often in a guessing game on the hours worked front. Not all federal government jobs are 40 hours a week either.

[Yugihoe]

Assuming 70 hour weeks in big law, $205k (190k base + 15k bonus as a first year) and 48 weeks (52-4 weeks of vacation), you're looking at $61.01/hour. If you can manage to get by with 60 hour weeks on average, which is more likely you get $71.18/hr and at 50 hour weeks you get $85.42. So you're likely falling in that range as a first year associate.

I'd easily quit big law to take $150k all-in comp and 40 hour weeks in-house with 4 week vacations, which is a whopping $78.13. So that's my idea of decent comp. As a third year associate making $270k, I'd take a $120k paycut for this.

ETA: accidental anon, this is yugihoe

[trebekismyhero]

If you're opening up your own legal consulting shop it depends on your experience. Also, if that is the case, it is still a billable hour, not an hourly wage. Even small firm junior attorneys bill out at like $150 per hour.

[QContinuum]

Assuming 70 hour weeks in big law, $205k (190k base + 15k bonus as a first year) and 48 weeks (52-4 weeks of vacation), you're looking at $61.01/hour. If you can manage to get by with 60 hour weeks on average, which is more likely you get $71.18/hr and at 50 hour weeks you get $85.42. So you're likely falling in that range as a first year associate.

I'd easily quit big law to take $150k all-in comp and 40 hour weeks in-house with 4 week vacations, which is a whopping $78.13. So that's my idea of decent comp. As a third year associate making $270k, I'd take a $120k paycut for this.

Agree with all of the above. Yet there's a counterargument that's sometimes raised, that has some merit to it, which goes as follows: Yes, BigLaw juniors' hourly wage isn't really that great. But your budget and lifestyle isn't based on your hourly wage. It's based on your total salary. Where else would you be able to even approach that total compensation fresh out of law school? If you take a 40-hour in-house or government gig, even if your hourly pay is comparable or even higher to your BigLaw colleague's hourly pay, so what? It's not like you have the option of working more and getting paid more.

[Ricardos]

I think 35 hours per weak will be optimal.

[logical seasoning]

Another thing to consider is that not all hours are created equal. 1 hour in big law is going to be way more intense and stressful than one hour in gov (generally)

Kind of like 1 hour holding a plank will feel different than 1 hour going for a walk

[QContinuum]

Another thing to consider is that not all hours are created equal. 1 hour in big law is going to be way more intense and stressful than one hour in gov (generally)

Kind of like 1 hour holding a plank will feel different than 1 hour going for a walk

I'm not sure 1 hour in big law is necessarily going to be more intense/stressful than 1 hour in gov. Biglaw's stressful not because the work itself is super intense/stressful, but because 1) there's a lot of it, 2) it isn't a constant flow (i.e., there's going to be crazy times when you barely have time to eat and sleep, possibly for weeks on end), and 3) you must be constantly available and willing to flake on personal stuff with little or no notice.

[JOThompson]

If you're opening up your own legal consulting shop it depends on your experience. Also, if that is the case, it is still a billable hour, not an hourly wage. Even small firm junior attorneys bill out at like $150 per hour.

And figure that overhead is traditionally about 50% (not including taxes) for most solos and small firms in medium sized markets. That $250-$350 an hour you can bill as a relatively new attorney doesn't end up being a ton at the end of the day.

[JOThompson]

Another thing to consider is that not all hours are created equal. 1 hour in big law is going to be way more intense and stressful than one hour in gov (generally)

Kind of like 1 hour holding a plank will feel different than 1 hour going for a walk

I'm not sure 1 hour in big law is necessarily going to be more intense/stressful than 1 hour in gov. Biglaw's stressful not because the work itself is super intense/stressful, but because 1) there's a lot of it, 2) it isn't a constant flow (i.e., there's going to be crazy times when you barely have time to eat and sleep, possibly for weeks on end), and 3) you must be constantly available and willing to flake on personal stuff with little or no notice.

I have never been in BigLaw, but I can tell you that some of the most stressful times in my life were as a junior criminal prosecutor (much more than working in a private criminal firm). And I was getting paid about $28/hour in Seattle (but more like $15-18 an hour because I was salaried and working 60-80 hours a week starting out). I don't think that's typical though, probably a more extreme example, but in general I would say that government trial work can be highly stressful. Government transactional or civil (non-high profile work) is a different story.

[logical seasoning]

Another thing to consider is that not all hours are created equal. 1 hour in big law is going to be way more intense and stressful than one hour in gov (generally)

Kind of like 1 hour holding a plank will feel different than 1 hour going for a walk

I'm not sure 1 hour in big law is necessarily going to be more intense/stressful than 1 hour in gov. Biglaw's stressful not because the work itself is super intense/stressful, but because 1) there's a lot of it, 2) it isn't a constant flow (i.e., there's going to be crazy times when you barely have time to eat and sleep, possibly for weeks on end), and 3) you must be constantly available and willing to flake on personal stuff with little or no notice.

I have never been in BigLaw, but I can tell you that some of the most stressful times in my life were as a junior criminal prosecutor (much more than working in a private criminal firm). And I was getting paid about $28/hour in Seattle (but more like $15-18 an hour because I was salaried and working 60-80 hours a week starting out). I don't think that's typical though, probably a more extreme example, but in general I would say that government trial work can be highly stressful. Government transactional or civil (non-high profile work) is a different story.

Yeah I am not counting DA/PD prosecution work as gov I guess. I was a DA for a while and it was the most stressful years of my life. I am talking about working Gov for a state/fed agency. From my experience (and talking to all my friends in big law) the hours that I put in are a whole lot "fluffier" than their hours.

Not having to bill/record my time probably has something to do with it.

[eleventhnight]

Assuming 70 hour weeks in big law, $205k (190k base + 15k bonus as a first year) and 48 weeks (52-4 weeks of vacation), you're looking at $61.01/hour. If you can manage to get by with 60 hour weeks on average, which is more likely you get $71.18/hr and at 50 hour weeks you get $85.42. So you're likely falling in that range as a first year associate.

I'd easily quit big law to take $150k all-in comp and 40 hour weeks in-house with 4 week vacations, which is a whopping $78.13. So that's my idea of decent comp. As a third year associate making $270k, I'd take a $120k paycut for this.

ETA: accidental anon, this is yugihoe

If you can afford it, do it. My old firm buddy did this recently. Mid-level BigLaw left for all-in comp of sub-200k, basically 9-5 in-house gig. He's always been a nice guy but he's so happy now that when I'm with him I get a little happier for the day. Golden handcuffs (wife's refined tastes & insane loans) so I can't afford such a drastic pay cut, but this guy seriously glows every time I see him and is so much healthier.

He wasn't even all that unhappy at the firm, everybody loved him, and was a huge asset to his team, and so I think his quality of life wasn't even all that bad. If a guy like that (already pretty happy in BigLaw) became even so much freaking happier, I can only imagine what some of us miserable tools could achieve by leaving...

[TigerIsBack]

Another thing to consider is that not all hours are created equal. 1 hour in big law is going to be way more intense and stressful than one hour in gov (generally)

Kind of like 1 hour holding a plank will feel different than 1 hour going for a walk

I'm not sure 1 hour in big law is necessarily going to be more intense/stressful than 1 hour in gov. Biglaw's stressful not because the work itself is super intense/stressful, but because 1) there's a lot of it, 2) it isn't a constant flow (i.e., there's going to be crazy times when you barely have time to eat and sleep, possibly for weeks on end), and 3) you must be constantly available and willing to flake on personal stuff with little or no notice.

To some extent I disagree. I think there are plenty of 40-hour/week jobs that are just as stressful during the time worked, but I think Biglaw certainly adds a ton of stress because of its culture, which makes 1 biglaw hour more stressful than 1 gov't hour. Ex:
- if from 4-5pm on a Friday you're not doing much, you're still likely stressed about an email coming in at 5:15 asking you to turn docs, whereas the gov't attny can probably go home at 5 and answer that email Monday if they choose
- even mindless work in biglaw becomes stressful with the expectation that everything you turn in must be flawless, especially if it was a mindless task. not sure the gov expectations, but I have to imagine its less intense

I'm assuming some things about gov't work here, and I haven't worked in gov, so I could be totally off base

[TigerIsBack]

Just another data point on the hourly wage argument:

I think it also becomes a question of managing finances in your free time. For example, I know that when I have a slow month, I spend more money because I have more time on weekends to do fun stuff, whereas when I'm slammed at work, most of my dinners are paid for by the firm and I spend a lot of my free time doing more relaxing/unplugging type things like dinner at home and a movie on the couch with my family. In a slow month, that might be a night out at TopGolf, bowling, whatever.

So, that definitely doesn't make it worth it to bill 60+ hour weeks, it's just another data point for determining how much you need to make in total salary because you have to factor in free time and if that'll lead to you spending more money.

$60/hour working 40 hour weeks could feel like significantly less money than $60/hour working 60-80 hour weeks.

[Ricardos]

Almost agree with you. But only almost.