[delete] Forum

[Halp]

In most big law firms, personality conflicts, work product issues, and similar things are usually handled outside of the HR process. HR handles a lot of things for non-attorneys (like compensation discussions, performance issues, etc) that attorneys will handle themselves internally. It doesn't make a ton of sense, but that's the way it is. Obviously there are times to go to HR (if you're being harassed, if you need to talk about going out on FMLA, if you need ADA accommodations, etc.) but most run of the mill issues are handled outside of HR. Going to HR because someone criticized you isn't how things work in law firms. It probably seems like we're all piling on, OP, but I think it's important for you to understand the "unwritten rules" of law firm life if you want to be successful.

That doesn't mean you need to put up with abusive behavior or anything like that. If a senior associate behaved inappropriately towards you when giving you criticism, talk to someone about what to do - maybe start with a junior or mid-level you trust and find out what the scoop is, and if they think it makes sense to raise it up the flagpole to someone more senior. Maybe consider talking to a partner mentor to see how they suggest handling it (without naming names, if possible). Ultimately, if the partner who oversees the senior thinks the behavior was inappropriate, then it's up to them to fix it. If they don't care about it, then, well, that sucks and isn't the way things should be, but the reality is that you're working for a small business (each partner with their own clients is their own little business), or a series of small businesses, and it's up to the "boss" to figure it out.

The bolded is obviously correct in principle, but the line between "abusive behavior" and the ordinary criticism associated with a high-stress, high-stakes, high-compensation job is very fine and not where most young associates think it is. Getting yelled at is part of the job (particularly when you are a junior associate and don't know any better), and the best way to avoid it is to get better at the job or to figure out how to work with people you jive with better.

Getting yelled at is not “part of the job.” This is a moronic thing to say. Do not put up with people yelling at you.

Plus one million. All these “getting yelled at is part of the job” posts are blowing my mind. None of my jobs, it’s not. It is not some kind of special entitled attitude to require bosses treat you with a bare minimum of decorum in not yelling or screaming at you, and to the extent there are bosses that refuse, I won’t work for them. Others can do it if they want, but don’t act like it’s a requirement to be employed as a lawyer. It’s not.

(Now, what constitutes yelling is an entirely different debate, but I’m talking about inappropriately raised voices in anger; not criticism alone or even criticism with an unpleasant tone.)

[jacketyellow]

This is why I hate Biglaw. HR is there to help you, but if you go to HR, you get fired. And, people blame the person trying to get help. Also, almost everyone in this thread says that getting yelled at is part of the job, and even if the yelling is excessive, you shouldn't inform HR because you'll get fired. Oh, and you should also put up with working 20 hour days or get fired for complaining about it. I just really hate the business model.

[jarofsoup]

You should not tolerate yelling. If you are yelled at you should lateral. Not complaining is a way to survive long enough to leave a bad place.

There is no magical moment in law firms. A junior that is perceived to be a problem will be frozen out and then fired.

[objctnyrhnr]

This is why I hate Biglaw. HR is there to help you, but if you go to HR, you get fired. And, people blame the person trying to get help. Also, almost everyone in this thread says that getting yelled at is part of the job, and even if the yelling is excessive, you shouldn't inform HR because you'll get fired. Oh, and you should also put up with working 20 hour days or get fired for complaining about it. I just really hate the business model.

Look the reality is that it’s not possible to make this kind of money via an established path, as (for example) an English major from a mediocre undergrad 3 years after graduating college in any other environment. Sometimes people need to put up with stuff. Not saying it’s how it should be, or that it’s a great business model, but it’s reality. (The good news, though, is that once you “break in” to market biglaw, lateraling to a peer firm isn’t really that difficult in the aggregate provided that your social skills are decent...so you really aren’t stuck at a given firm).

And a related point is that junior associates need to try not to forget how completely replaceable they are to brass. Again, I acknowledge this is a cynical, pessimistic outlook that many might not like...but that doesn’t make it erroneous.

[papermateflair]

In most big law firms, personality conflicts, work product issues, and similar things are usually handled outside of the HR process. HR handles a lot of things for non-attorneys (like compensation discussions, performance issues, etc) that attorneys will handle themselves internally. It doesn't make a ton of sense, but that's the way it is. Obviously there are times to go to HR (if you're being harassed, if you need to talk about going out on FMLA, if you need ADA accommodations, etc.) but most run of the mill issues are handled outside of HR. Going to HR because someone criticized you isn't how things work in law firms. It probably seems like we're all piling on, OP, but I think it's important for you to understand the "unwritten rules" of law firm life if you want to be successful.

That doesn't mean you need to put up with abusive behavior or anything like that. If a senior associate behaved inappropriately towards you when giving you criticism, talk to someone about what to do - maybe start with a junior or mid-level you trust and find out what the scoop is, and if they think it makes sense to raise it up the flagpole to someone more senior. Maybe consider talking to a partner mentor to see how they suggest handling it (without naming names, if possible). Ultimately, if the partner who oversees the senior thinks the behavior was inappropriate, then it's up to them to fix it. If they don't care about it, then, well, that sucks and isn't the way things should be, but the reality is that you're working for a small business (each partner with their own clients is their own little business), or a series of small businesses, and it's up to the "boss" to figure it out.

The bolded is obviously correct in principle, but the line between "abusive behavior" and the ordinary criticism associated with a high-stress, high-stakes, high-compensation job is very fine and not where most young associates think it is. Getting yelled at is part of the job (particularly when you are a junior associate and don't know any better), and the best way to avoid it is to get better at the job or to figure out how to work with people you jive with better.

Getting yelled at is not “part of the job.” This is a moronic thing to say. Do not put up with people yelling at you.

Plus one million. All these “getting yelled at is part of the job” posts are blowing my mind. None of my jobs, it’s not. It is not some kind of special entitled attitude to require bosses treat you with a bare minimum of decorum in not yelling or screaming at you, and to the extent there are bosses that refuse, I won’t work for them. Others can do it if they want, but don’t act like it’s a requirement to be employed as a lawyer. It’s not.

(Now, what constitutes yelling is an entirely different debate, but I’m talking about inappropriately raised voices in anger; not criticism alone or even criticism with an unpleasant tone.)

Agreed - yelling is absolutely inappropriate. Of course, sometimes we say "I got yelled at" when really someone sternly told us in a cold voice to never do something again, because it's a way of communicating "the partner is mad at me and I think it's unjust." But actual yelling, gaslighting, throwing things, etc. are all completely inappropriate in the office. It doesn't have to be "just part of the job."

The real issue is how to resolve something like that in a way that allows you to keep your job (if that's what you want), and unfortunately in a law firm that will often depend on how much power the person who acted inappropriately has. For example, a partner who I don't work for (and isn't in my group and who doesn't have any power) yelled at me over a non-billable assignment once, and I straight up will not work for that person again. But if it was someone in my group that I would have to work for going forward, I would need to figure out how to navigate that issue - is going to HR the right place? It could be, depending on the firm dynamics and what happened. Maybe it's talking to your practice group leader or partner mentor or someone who can help you understand what to do, or getting someone to address the issue for you or run interference. Not in a "so and so was mean to me, please go beat them up" way, but if someone more powerful than the person who behaved inappropriately can tell them to knock it off, that can change things (especially if this is a repeat offense).

Sometimes there are just bad groups though (I'm thinking specifically about a group in one office at my old firm), and no one wants to tackle the problem, in which case you have to weigh whether it's worth it to leave or not (in this economy, I say get out and go somewhere where you don't have to put up with that type of garbage behavior, but everyone has their own set of circumstances). And sometimes when you've messed up, it's easier to start over than to try and fix the problem, and there's nothing wrong with a fresh start. Just make sure you have taken the lessons you need from the former job so you don't make the same mistakes again and end up in the same position in 6 months.

[Idontwanttomakeaname]

This is why I hate Biglaw. HR is there to help you, but if you go to HR, you get fired. And, people blame the person trying to get help. Also, almost everyone in this thread says that getting yelled at is part of the job, and even if the yelling is excessive, you shouldn't inform HR because you'll get fired. Oh, and you should also put up with working 20 hour days or get fired for complaining about it. I just really hate the business model.

Look the reality is that it’s not possible to make this kind of money via an established path, as (for example) an English major from a mediocre undergrad 3 years after graduating college in any other environment. Sometimes people need to put up with stuff. Not saying it’s how it should be, or that it’s a great business model, but it’s reality. (The good news, though, is that once you “break in” to market biglaw, lateraling to a peer firm isn’t really that difficult in the aggregate provided that your social skills are decent...so you really aren’t stuck at a given firm).

And a related point is that junior associates need to try not to forget how completely replaceable they are to brass. Again, I acknowledge this is a cynical, pessimistic outlook that many might not like...but that doesn’t make it erroneous.

This also isn't unique to big law. I worked in a different industry and I always found it helpful to conceptualize HR as being the management secret police. They aren't there to help you, they are there to drive productivity and stifle dissent and to the extent that you get in the way of those goals, you are toast.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a midlevel in lit (V10 but not NY). I have been legit screamed at (cussing me out over my personal cell) once. I did not deserve it and won't ever do anything for that partner again.

Full-on yelling should be rare. It should be expected that you will get no-nonsense constructive criticism sometimes. And voices might even raise a notch or two when that happens. The key though is to do good work most of the time, so that the people giving you constructive criticism for fucking up something still like you, and are criticizing you so that you'll be better. If it's an attack instead of a chapter in a relationship, then it's time to develop new relationships/workstreams in your firm or lateral.

Also, strong agreement with the person who said it is ok to go to HR but only if you are otherwise ready to quit. I was about ready to quit when non-office partner cussed me out. Coming to that realization meant (a) the firm held no power over me anymore, but also (b) I was free to talk to people I did trust about the yeller's behavior. (I suggest partners on the same matter if available, but you do you). I have since been mostly shielded from the screamer, and if he calls me, I know I can tell him to fuck off and that other people will back me up. This job is sometimes hard but that is a nice feeling.

[Person1111]

I'm a midlevel in lit (V10 but not NY). I have been legit screamed at (cussing me out over my personal cell) once. I did not deserve it and won't ever do anything for that partner again.

Full-on yelling should be rare. It should be expected that you will get no-nonsense constructive criticism sometimes. And voices might even raise a notch or two when that happens. The key though is to do good work most of the time, so that the people giving you constructive criticism for fucking up something still like you, and are criticizing you so that you'll be better. If it's an attack instead of a chapter in a relationship, then it's time to develop new relationships/workstreams in your firm or lateral.

Also, strong agreement with the person who said it is ok to go to HR but only if you are otherwise ready to quit. I was about ready to quit when non-office partner cussed me out. Coming to that realization meant (a) the firm held no power over me anymore, but also (b) I was free to talk to people I did trust about the yeller's behavior. (I suggest partners on the same matter if available, but you do you). I have since been mostly shielded from the screamer, and if he calls me, I know I can tell him to fuck off and that other people will back me up. This job is sometimes hard but that is a nice feeling.

This is a very good post and reinforces that context matters a lot. I have been yelled at by a handful of people who are just toxic to work for and I do whatever I can to avoid working for them. (I have largely succeeded, mostly because I filled up my plate with work from people who are generally very good to work for.) I have also been yelled at (and occasionally been cursed at, called names, etc.) by some people who were heavily invested in my career and who have been very good mentors and professional allies. When that happened, I reminded myself that (1) it's not personal and (2) whatever I did is a serious issue to them and I should absolutely not make the same mistake again. This approach has permitted me to develop some very strong working relationships, ensures that I have a steady flow of interesting, substantive, career-enriching work, and has set me up very well politically. That would not be the case if I told on these partners to HR.

[rcharter1978]

This is why I hate Biglaw. HR is there to help you, but if you go to HR, you get fired. And, people blame the person trying to get help. Also, almost everyone in this thread says that getting yelled at is part of the job, and even if the yelling is excessive, you shouldn't inform HR because you'll get fired. Oh, and you should also put up with working 20 hour days or get fired for complaining about it. I just really hate the business model.

Look the reality is that it’s not possible to make this kind of money via an established path, as (for example) an English major from a mediocre undergrad 3 years after graduating college in any other environment. Sometimes people need to put up with stuff. Not saying it’s how it should be, or that it’s a great business model, but it’s reality. (The good news, though, is that once you “break in” to market biglaw, lateraling to a peer firm isn’t really that difficult in the aggregate provided that your social skills are decent...so you really aren’t stuck at a given firm).

And a related point is that junior associates need to try not to forget how completely replaceable they are to brass. Again, I acknowledge this is a cynical, pessimistic outlook that many might not like...but that doesn’t make it erroneous.

This also isn't unique to big law. I worked in a different industry and I always found it helpful to conceptualize HR as being the management secret police. They aren't there to help you, they are there to drive productivity and stifle dissent and to the extent that you get in the way of those goals, you are toast.

This. For the most part, unless you're working with a sociopath (psychopath?), people know exactly who they have hired and the pros outweighed the cons.

If you go to HR you're likely not telling them anything new unless they are purposefully ignorant and don't want to know, which is just as bad.