Online LLM possible while working in biglaw? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Currently doing corporate work as a first year associate. I would like to get into some tax work as well. Has anyone done an online LLM (and where?) while working biglaw hours? Was it feasible?

[papermateflair]

I think a lot of the value in the tax LLM is the ability to get another chance at big law/big 4 tax jobs, and not the actual knowledge (you can learn on the job just as easily), although I don't have an LLM so if others disagree please feel free to tell me I'm wrong. I assume you are getting the LLM to make a move into tax, and not just for general knowledge to be more helpful for corporate on deals. If you want to stay at your firm, I don't know that getting an online LLM in tax just to move groups is going to be as effective as just talking to the tax folks and seeing if they can get you involved in things when they have overflow work. If you want to move firms, then I think it would depend on the firms themselves and what they're looking for in a candidate (my firm's tax group, for example, doesn't hire LLMs outside of NYU/Gtown/Florida), but my sense is that most of the recruiting for tax LLMs with no tax practice experience is going to be through the LLM program's interview program, and that having an LLM from an online school isn't going to be particularly helpful.

[QContinuum]

Cosign the above. Tax LLMs are only useful when they're from NYU or Georgetown (and arguably Florida). A tax LLM from any other school/program is unlikely to confer any tangible benefit, certainly not anything close to balancing out the cost, time and energy involved.

[thatlawlkid]

Cosign the above. Tax LLMs are only useful when they're from NYU or Georgetown (and arguably Florida). A tax LLM from any other school/program is unlikely to confer any tangible benefit, certainly not anything close to balancing out the cost, time and energy involved.

Is northwestern no longer considered worth attending for an LLM?

[The Lsat Airbender]

Cosign the above. Tax LLMs are only useful when they're from NYU or Georgetown (and arguably Florida). A tax LLM from any other school/program is unlikely to confer any tangible benefit, certainly not anything close to balancing out the cost, time and energy involved.

Is northwestern no longer considered worth attending for an LLM?

If you're already doing Chicago biglaw and trying to specialize in tax it's fine as a part-time program.

[QContinuum]

Cosign the above. Tax LLMs are only useful when they're from NYU or Georgetown (and arguably Florida). A tax LLM from any other school/program is unlikely to confer any tangible benefit, certainly not anything close to balancing out the cost, time and energy involved.

Is northwestern no longer considered worth attending for an LLM?

If you're already doing Chicago biglaw and trying to specialize in tax it's fine as a part-time program.

Right, sorry. My earlier post should have went, "NYU or Georgetown (and arguably Florida/NW)". I think there's a somewhat limited set of circumstances where a Florida/NW Tax LL.M. adds enough value to justify the cost, but they can absolutely make sense sometimes.

[thatlawlkid]

Cosign the above. Tax LLMs are only useful when they're from NYU or Georgetown (and arguably Florida). A tax LLM from any other school/program is unlikely to confer any tangible benefit, certainly not anything close to balancing out the cost, time and energy involved.

Is northwestern no longer considered worth attending for an LLM?

If you're already doing Chicago biglaw and trying to specialize in tax it's fine as a part-time program.

Right, sorry. My earlier post should have went, "NYU or Georgetown (and arguably Florida/NW)". I think there's a somewhat limited set of circumstances where a Florida/NW Tax LL.M. adds enough value to justify the cost, but they can absolutely make sense sometimes.

yeah no worries, just wanted to make sure i didnt miss a riveting development in the world of tax llms!

[CanadianWolf]

I am concerned about the posts which assert that only NYU, Georgetown or Florida tax LLM degrees are worthwhile. While this may be partially accurate for biglaw firms, it is not accurate with respect to Big 4 accounting firms and with respect to hiring by taxing authorities--both federal and state.

[Anonymous User]

I am concerned about the posts which assert that only NYU, Georgetown or Florida tax LLM degrees are worthwhile. While this may be partially accurate for biglaw firms, it is not accurate with respect to Big 4 accounting firms and with respect to hiring by taxing authorities--both federal and state.

This. I could not agree more. I know non NYU/GULC LLMs that run circles around NYU LLMs in Big4 NYC M&A/ITS/PE.

[QContinuum]

I am concerned about the posts which assert that only NYU, Georgetown or Florida tax LLM degrees are worthwhile. While this may be partially accurate for biglaw firms, it is not accurate with respect to Big 4 accounting firms and with respect to hiring by taxing authorities--both federal and state.

This. I could not agree more. I know non NYU/GULC LLMs that run circles around NYU LLMs in Big4 NYC M&A/ITS/PE.

Two important points. First, CanadianWolf's post conflates Big4 and even BigLaw hiring with IRS hiring and state tax agency hiring. IRS and state tax agency hiring are, for many/most positions, moderately to hugely less prestige-selective than BigLaw/Big4 hiring. They also, for many/most positions, pay moderately to hugely less. The OP is a BigLawyer who presumably wants to practice BigLaw tax, or failing that, Big4 tax. This is not to demean state tax agency positions at all, but there is no indication OP is interested in taking such a position. So, talking about the ability of other Tax LL.M. programs to place graduates into state tax agency positions really isn't relevant to this thread.

Second, I'm sure that there are indeed some/many non-NYU/GULC Tax LL.M.s who can "run circles" around NYU Tax LL.M.s in terms of skill, dedication, talent, knowledge, etc. Likewise it is true that there are many T20 or T1 or even T2/T3/T4 J.D.s who can "run circles" around T14 J.D.s. But, fair or not, that doesn't change the reality that these programs simply have much weaker placement power. Is it possible to land BigLaw from a non-NYU/GULC/UF/NW Tax LL.M.? Sure. Just like it's possible to land BigLaw with a T2 J.D., or even a T3/T4 J.D. But it's a huge risk, and not an objectively wise gamble going in.

[Anonymous User]

I am concerned about the posts which assert that only NYU, Georgetown or Florida tax LLM degrees are worthwhile. While this may be partially accurate for biglaw firms, it is not accurate with respect to Big 4 accounting firms and with respect to hiring by taxing authorities--both federal and state.

This. I could not agree more. I know non NYU/GULC LLMs that run circles around NYU LLMs in Big4 NYC M&A/ITS/PE.

Two important points. First, CanadianWolf's post conflates Big4 and even BigLaw hiring with IRS hiring and state tax agency hiring. IRS and state tax agency hiring are, for many/most positions, moderately to hugely less prestige-selective than BigLaw/Big4 hiring. They also, for many/most positions, pay moderately to hugely less. The OP is a BigLawyer who presumably wants to practice BigLaw tax, or failing that, Big4 tax. This is not to demean state tax agency positions at all, but there is no indication OP is interested in taking such a position. So, talking about the ability of other Tax LL.M. programs to place graduates into state tax agency positions really isn't relevant to this thread.

Second, I'm sure that there are indeed some/many non-NYU/GULC Tax LL.M.s who can "run circles" around NYU Tax LL.M.s in terms of skill, dedication, talent, knowledge, etc. Likewise it is true that there are many T20 or T1 or even T2/T3/T4 J.D.s who can "run circles" around T14 J.D.s. But, fair or not, that doesn't change the reality that these programs simply have much weaker placement power. Is it possible to land BigLaw from a non-NYU/GULC/UF/NW Tax LL.M.? Sure. Just like it's possible to land BigLaw with a T2 J.D., or even a T3/T4 J.D. But it's a huge risk, and not an objectively wise gamble going in.

Agreed.

[nealric]

Currently doing corporate work as a first year associate. I would like to get into some tax work as well. Has anyone done an online LLM (and where?) while working biglaw hours? Was it feasible?

Have you spoken to your firm's tax group? How about your practice group head? It's absolutely doable, but you need your firm to support you on it. Otherwise, you could end up in the position of trying to close a big deal the day of a final exam. I can only imagine this making sense if it were done in tandem with a switch to the tax group. One thing about tax is that it's not something you dabble in. At the risk of some amount of exaggeration: you don't know anything until you know everything- that's the big reason why LLMs exist in the first place. It's very difficult to gain comprehensive tax knowledge working on deals piecemeal.

At some firms (my old firm included) it was expected that tax associates without an NYU LLM coming in would get one part-time (this was before NYU offered an online option, so this involved physically leaving for class once or twice a week). They called it "The Program", as in "have you done The Program yet?" I think they were actually slightly annoyed that I already had an LLM coming in (done during the time off from great recession era associate deferments). The firm would pay the full cost without strings. While absolutely brutal from a work/life balance standpoint, I do agree that part time while practicing is the best way to do the LLM. I think I suffered during my LLM by not having practiced before it. You can do perfectly well academically without having practiced tax, but you miss a lot when you don't have the context of seeing how things work in the real world.

[QContinuum]

At some firms (my old firm included) it was expected that tax associates without an NYU LLM coming in would get one part-time (this was before NYU offered an online option, so this involved physically leaving for class once or twice a week). They called it "The Program", as in "have you done The Program yet?" I think they were actually slightly annoyed that I already had an LLM coming in (done during the time off from great recession era associate deferments). The firm would pay the full cost without strings. While absolutely brutal from a work/life balance standpoint, I do agree that part time while practicing is the best way to do the LLM. I think I suffered during my LLM by not having practiced before it. You can do perfectly well academically without having practiced tax, but you miss a lot when you don't have the context of seeing how things work in the real world.

Thanks very much for sharing your experience - should be very helpful to OP and to any others considering tax law!

Wonder why your firm was "annoyed" that you had an LLM coming in, though. My old firm would've loved saving money on not having to cover the tuition. Was the thinking that you'd managed to sidle out of the brutal rite of passage of juggling work and school at the same time?

[nealric]

At some firms (my old firm included) it was expected that tax associates without an NYU LLM coming in would get one part-time (this was before NYU offered an online option, so this involved physically leaving for class once or twice a week). They called it "The Program", as in "have you done The Program yet?" I think they were actually slightly annoyed that I already had an LLM coming in (done during the time off from great recession era associate deferments). The firm would pay the full cost without strings. While absolutely brutal from a work/life balance standpoint, I do agree that part time while practicing is the best way to do the LLM. I think I suffered during my LLM by not having practiced before it. You can do perfectly well academically without having practiced tax, but you miss a lot when you don't have the context of seeing how things work in the real world.

Thanks very much for sharing your experience - should be very helpful to OP and to any others considering tax law!

Wonder why your firm was "annoyed" that you had an LLM coming in, though. My old firm would've loved saving money on not having to cover the tuition. Was the thinking that you'd managed to sidle out of the brutal rite of passage of juggling work and school at the same time?

I think there was a bit of right of passage and common frame of reference aspect to it. Plus, I went to Georgetown and they tended to think that NYU was the only LLM. Some of it was also the issue I pointed out- that it helps to do the LLM within the context of practice.