Where Do All The Lawyers Go? Forum

[Anonymous User]

V10 associate here, and while I’m well aware of the firm business model, I can’t help but notice that there are only a (relative) “handful” of 5-6th years (even fourth years!) at every firm

I get that people will lateral to other firms after a few years, but then in theory, shouldn’t there be a larger concentration of seniors as you go down the V100? I can’t imagine EVERYONE goes in-house.

Kind of wondering/worrying about my long term plans (whether in this firm or elsewhere) given that there are so few “senior” lawyers who have stayed (to clarify, I’m not talking about those who make partner, just a senior attorney/ of counsel level or even senior associates)

[Anonymous User]

Probably has something to do with the low higherings and firings post recession 8-10 years ago and normal attrition. I know a handful of senior associates who wanted less responsibility to spend more time with their young families and went in-house.

I know my group would kill for a senior associate or senior counsel lateral (or even two) but just can’t find anyone to fill the spot.

[papermateflair]

Just from my law school section, folks have left big law and gone in-house, to smaller firms, federal government, state/local government, stay at home parenting, consulting, university/law school positions, started their own businesses (not law), working for non-profits, political campaigns...

Like the other anon said, the lack of senior folks from the lower hiring classes of 2009-2013 are definitely being reflected in these numbers - some of these lawyers never got into big law in the first place, so they didn't disappear from big law, they were just never there.

[Neff]

Just from my law school section, folks have left big law and gone in-house, to smaller firms, federal government, state/local government, stay at home parenting, consulting, university/law school positions, started their own businesses (not law), working for non-profits, political campaigns...

Like the other anon said, the lack of senior folks from the lower hiring classes of 2009-2013 are definitely being reflected in these numbers - some of these lawyers never got into big law in the first place, so they didn't disappear from big law, they were just never there.

Some of them have heart attacks at age 39 and die/become disabled. Some commit suicide because they (or they think they) screwed up a deal/case (c.f. stories all over the law blogs). The health hazards are real -- take care of yourself, life is short, don't take this law thing too serious. Do it well, but at the end of day it's just a paycheck like any other job.

[Wild Card]

The vast majority never had to work in the first place, so they retire and live off their trusts until the end of their days.

[RaceJudicata]

Just from my law school section, folks have left big law and gone in-house, to smaller firms, federal government, state/local government, stay at home parenting, consulting, university/law school positions, started their own businesses (not law), working for non-profits, political campaigns...

Like the other anon said, the lack of senior folks from the lower hiring classes of 2009-2013 are definitely being reflected in these numbers - some of these lawyers never got into big law in the first place, so they didn't disappear from big law, they were just never there.

Some of them have heart attacks at age 39 and die/become disabled. Some commit suicide because they (or they think they) screwed up a deal/case (c.f. stories all over the law blogs). The health hazards are real -- take care of yourself, life is short, don't take this law thing too serious. Do it well, but at the end of day it's just a paycheck like any other job.

Chill out dude

[64Fl]

The vast majority never had to work in the first place, so they retire and live off their trusts until the end of their days.

As with most of your takes, this is a bad take. There is an extremely small minority who come from this background. Lots of folks come from families that make senior associate level household income. It's good money, but they're not multimillionaire trust fund babies as a result. You're absolutely delusional if you think the vast majority of big law lawyers are from families that are mega millionaires or billionaires and not just normal upper middle class households. Of course, then there is also the ever growing poor/middle class law student/graduate population.

As for OP, most of these people definitely flee in house or become seniors/counsel/partners at much smaller firms that are not on your radar. A good few probably give up the legal profession all together.

[BlackAndOrange84]

The vast majority never had to work in the first place, so they retire and live off their trusts until the end of their days.

As with most of your takes, this is a bad take. There is an extremely small minority who come from this background. Lots of folks come from families that make senior associate level household income. It's good money, but they're not multimillionaire trust fund babies as a result. You're absolutely delusional if you think the vast majority of big law lawyers are from families that are mega millionaires or billionaires and not just normal upper middle class households. Of course, then there is also the ever growing poor/middle class law student/graduate population.

As for OP, most of these people definitely flee in house or become seniors/counsel/partners at much smaller firms that are not on your radar. A good few probably give up the legal profession all together.

It's a joke.

ETA: Now I'm wondering if 64Fl trolled us all hard with this earnest posting?

[cavalier1138]

The vast majority never had to work in the first place, so they retire and live off their trusts until the end of their days.

As with most of your takes, this is a bad take. There is an extremely small minority who come from this background. Lots of folks come from families that make senior associate level household income. It's good money, but they're not multimillionaire trust fund babies as a result. You're absolutely delusional if you think the vast majority of big law lawyers are from families that are mega millionaires or billionaires and not just normal upper middle class households. Of course, then there is also the ever growing poor/middle class law student/graduate population.

As for OP, most of these people definitely flee in house or become seniors/counsel/partners at much smaller firms that are not on your radar. A good few probably give up the legal profession all together.

It's a joke.

ETA: Now I'm wondering if 64Fl trolled us all hard with this earnest posting?

Based on Wild Card's post history, it wasn't a joke. They have a serious chip on their shoulder about most things, including everyone they ever encountered in law school or at work.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

From my big law firm, people have gone in-house, lateraled to other big law firms, and a few have stopped practicing. I don’t have the statistics but there are a ton of in house jobs and these are much less visible than law firm jobs (I.e. go to the Cravath website and you can see all of their lawyers, but there is no way to see the number of in house lawyers at Walmart, AT&T etc etc).

[notinbiglaw]

Op, I wondered the same thing when I was SA.

I trawled LinkedIn for alumni of the firm I was SAing at (V10) in 2015-2016 and most of what I found, in order of relative frequency. Keep in mind if survivor bias and what I saw wouldn’t include people who left LinkedIn altogether. Also keep in mind I was looking at a time period where a lot of would be seniors were let go and were forced to get MBA or find alternative employment so I imagine attrition rates were higher than what you’d expect today.

Senior (including partner) where they started or an equivalent firm
Senior/counsel/partner at a different market or smaller firm
Government
Some kind of in house

I’d venture this accounts for like 50-60%

Then a big drop off, accounting for maybe 20% total
Some kind of political gig
Non profits

A drop off after
MBA, somewhere between 10-20%

A drop off again, maybe 10% tops
Own firm
Own business

A noticeable contingent in
Consulting
Banking

Rest is misc

[BlackAndOrange84]

The vast majority never had to work in the first place, so they retire and live off their trusts until the end of their days.

As with most of your takes, this is a bad take. There is an extremely small minority who come from this background. Lots of folks come from families that make senior associate level household income. It's good money, but they're not multimillionaire trust fund babies as a result. You're absolutely delusional if you think the vast majority of big law lawyers are from families that are mega millionaires or billionaires and not just normal upper middle class households. Of course, then there is also the ever growing poor/middle class law student/graduate population.

As for OP, most of these people definitely flee in house or become seniors/counsel/partners at much smaller firms that are not on your radar. A good few probably give up the legal profession all together.

It's a joke.

ETA: Now I'm wondering if 64Fl trolled us all hard with this earnest posting?

Based on Wild Card's post history, it wasn't a joke. They have a serious chip on their shoulder about most things, including everyone they ever encountered in law school or at work.

Pretty sure that whole account is 90% schtick.

[nerd1]

The vast majority never had to work in the first place, so they retire and live off their trusts until the end of their days.

As with most of your takes, this is a bad take. There is an extremely small minority who come from this background. Lots of folks come from families that make senior associate level household income. It's good money, but they're not multimillionaire trust fund babies as a result. You're absolutely delusional if you think the vast majority of big law lawyers are from families that are mega millionaires or billionaires and not just normal upper middle class households. Of course, then there is also the ever growing poor/middle class law student/graduate population.

As for OP, most of these people definitely flee in house or become seniors/counsel/partners at much smaller firms that are not on your radar. A good few probably give up the legal profession all together.

Wild Card must have been joking. At least if we are talking about practice areas like M&A, there is simply no way that most midlevels/seniors are from upper class. The work is just too boring, demanding and physically/mentally toxic. It's conceivable that there could be some trust fund babies (if they actually bring clients and are not expected to bill too much) that are midlevels/seniors. The midlevels/seniors that look chill, openly complain about the work and say whatever they want to say to the managing partner (e.g. checking facebook/instagram when the managing partner is giving a speech right in front of him) are likely of that type. I've seen one at my NYC sweatshop.

[oblig.lawl.ref]

The vast majority never had to work in the first place, so they retire and live off their trusts until the end of their days.

As with most of your takes, this is a bad take. There is an extremely small minority who come from this background. Lots of folks come from families that make senior associate level household income. It's good money, but they're not multimillionaire trust fund babies as a result. You're absolutely delusional if you think the vast majority of big law lawyers are from families that are mega millionaires or billionaires and not just normal upper middle class households. Of course, then there is also the ever growing poor/middle class law student/graduate population.

As for OP, most of these people definitely flee in house or become seniors/counsel/partners at much smaller firms that are not on your radar. A good few probably give up the legal profession all together.

Lol. This is amazing and in my experience, which is rock-solid and indisputable, pretty true. I assume the second poster is trolling and I love it too. Great schtick, truly. My class of like 15-ish kids at a pretty good west coast corporate group included the grandson of a guy who literally founded a household name retail organization that was named for the guy. This kid was famously bad at the job but he is one of the few left, disliked by most other lawyers, and most likely to make partner. He just says no whenever he feels like it. Maybe one day he'll be fired but most likely he'll outlast everyone else because he does not give a shit. Probably the other half of my class were the children of doctors, etc.

Gonna respond to the substance in another post.

[oblig.lawl.ref]

I think this is exactly the right question to be asking. I have a doom and gloom perspective solely because I (personally) believe that if you go to Harvard or Columbia or NYU law (or so many places ranked lower than that, including my own alma mater) you shouldn't have to deactivate your LinkedIn profile because you feel like you haven't achieved. But I have searched LinkedIn connections many times only to find they are no longer on LinkedIn after leaving the firm.

I think you should take that for what it stands for. These are people that either went to a top 10 law school or (and this is it for the most part) started at one of the top tier law firms on the west coast. That is the crux of what I think should concern law students.

I can't answer your question exactly, and I don't think anyone can. But we can give color.

So, to answer the question more directly, I have had colleagues from a top-notch west coast corporate practice:
- Go to lower ranked firms (that work them just as hard as my firm for less pay and worse clients)
- Go to absolute boutiques (where they actually stand a chance of making partner but making less than or close to a BL first year during mid-level years and not much more when senior until they make partner and have to hustle for business til they die)
- Go to contract work / Axiom (I don't know what that's like, look it up)
- Absolutely disappear and seem to not have a job after
- Disappear for a while and then re-appear at a lower-tier biglaw or midlaw firm (not sure what that's like but they seem reasonably happy but dubious about the exit options there)

That being said the better people I worked with (at a great firm for this kind of stuff):
- Went in-house to great tech companies (probably about 50% of them, but for the most part for sure, the better ones)
- Also some of them ended at the above eventually but wondered in the desert after rage quitting first and luckily made it

My disclaimer is that I acknowledge that this is all negative but I think it is important to understand what the downside risk looks like in this career. Because it is terrifying for the amount of debt many take on. If you make it (which I feel like I did), it is truly an amazing career path. Best of luck.

[burritotaco]

Among my peers (8-10 years out), the majority who were in big law left to go in house. Maybe about 1/4 left for smaller firms, and about quarter went into the government. A very small percentage made partner in big law, and I can think of a handful who law altogether.