No Biglaw Salary Growth In Birmingham? Forum

[SomeoneInBham]

I found a thread on this forum from 2011 listing the first year associate salary at biglaw in Birmingham as 110K. Based on everything I can find, the 2019 first year associate salary for biglaw in Birmingham is... 110K. Looking at NALP data, during that same period, the median first year associate salary nationwide increased from 115K to 155K (a 35% increase!).

Anyone have any insight on why firms in Birmingham haven't budged, and/or, any indication they will?

[Anonymous User]

I think there’s a bump at the top (Bradley), but generally true. Not a $20k bump or anything similar

[Anonymous User]

I think there’s a bump at the top (Bradley), but generally true. Not a $20k bump or anything similar

And if Bradley bumped up I think it was just in response to the bump in Nashville if anything

[The Lsat Airbender]

Anyone have any insight on why firms in Birmingham haven't budged, and/or, any indication they will?

It's fucking Alabama? Now that they've got the visual appeal of six-figures-starting, there's no need to raise further until 1) CoL rises substantially and/or 2) there's a talent shortage (i.e., the demand for biglaw services goes up and firms need to expand their classes beyond what the traditional pipeline provides), neither of which seems likely anytime soon.

Put yourself in the shoes of a big-firm partner. Why would you give first-years a raise? Bradley had one because of the cultural awkwardness of Nashville going up even though it's technically a satellite.

[legalpotato]

very short sighted of these Alabama biglaw firms. If they aren’t careful, all of the top talent in Alabama might start going out of state for jobs, notwithstanding all of the many other wonderful things Alabama has to offer.

[QContinuum]

Anyone have any insight on why firms in Birmingham haven't budged, and/or, any indication they will?

It's fucking Alabama? Now that they've got the visual appeal of six-figures-starting, there's no need to raise further until 1) CoL rises substantially and/or 2) there's a talent shortage (i.e., the demand for biglaw services goes up and firms need to expand their classes beyond what the traditional pipeline provides), neither of which seems likely anytime soon.

Put yourself in the shoes of a big-firm partner. Why would you give first-years a raise? Bradley had one because of the cultural awkwardness of Nashville going up even though it's technically a satellite.

Consider that due to COL differences, $110k in Birmingham is equivalent to $273k in Manhattan. If anything, Birmingham BigLaw is already overpaying associates.

(Of course, $110k in Birmingham merely equates to $118k in Houston, so, yeah, TX BigLaw's where it's at, money-wise.)

[SomeoneInBham]

Anyone have any insight on why firms in Birmingham haven't budged, and/or, any indication they will?

It's fucking Alabama? Now that they've got the visual appeal of six-figures-starting, there's no need to raise further until 1) CoL rises substantially and/or 2) there's a talent shortage (i.e., the demand for biglaw services goes up and firms need to expand their classes beyond what the traditional pipeline provides), neither of which seems likely anytime soon.

Put yourself in the shoes of a big-firm partner. Why would you give first-years a raise? Bradley had one because of the cultural awkwardness of Nashville going up even though it's technically a satellite.

Yeah, I'm sure it's supply and demand. But the national median vs Bham biglaw has to have a breaking point. Bham biglaw was 96% of the national median in 2011. It's now 71%. There has to come a point when the discrepancy is so large that Bham firms have to pony up to get the talent they need.

There aren't enough firms paying the top rate here to spark an arms race like there is in NYC. But the pay gap has to hurt them eventually.

[QContinuum]

Yeah, I'm sure it's supply and demand. But the national median vs Bham biglaw has to have a breaking point. Bham biglaw was 96% of the national median in 2011. It's now 71%. There has to come a point when the discrepancy is so large that Bham firms have to pony up to get the talent they need.

There aren't enough firms paying the top rate here to spark an arms race like there is in NYC. But the pay gap has to hurt them eventually.

But Bham's such an insular market, though, that I don't think they really directly compete with NYC, or even the closer major markets like TX and FL. I'd venture to say most folks interested in Birmingham BigLaw would never consider working in TX or FL, let alone NYC, as a viable alternative. So I'm not sure the pay gap really matters that much. It's not like, say, FL or even Atlanta where there's much more direct competition with markets on the $190k scale (and even FL and Atlanta have held out so far).

(It may also be instructive to look at Seattle, which is not on the $190k scale either despite being a good-sized coastal market and despite CA being at $190k.)

In the near term, if you want to make $190k, you may have to suck it up and move to Houston.

[The Lsat Airbender]

There has to come a point when the discrepancy is so large that Bham firms have to pony up to get the talent they need.

Yes - and that point will come when 1) CoL rises substantially and/or 2) the demand for biglaw services goes up.

As Q notes, there's not much meaningful price substitution between Birmingham and the vast majority of American cities. Birmingham law firms are playing keep-up-with-the-Joneses with other employers in the area, not with similar employers in different areas, and the 95th percentile for household income in the Birmingham metro is $125k. (For comparison, that number in Nashville, TN is $204k, and in most "major markets" we don't know what the number is because the Census stops asking after $250k.)

A T14 grad interviewing for Boston biglaw could plausibly threaten to work in NYC or Chicago instead if there was a significant pay differential. A Bama grad, or even someone who went to Vandy or Harvard but has ties to Alabama, isn't in the same position tell BABC "fuck you, pay me."

[SomeoneInBham]

In the near term, if you want to make $190k, you may have to suck it up and move to Houston.

Ha. My roots are too deep in Bham, so I'm not moving. Thus proving your point.

Anyone know what the progression is? Saw one post here from 2017 that Bradley's Nashville office hits 170K in year 7. Sounds like Birmingham may now have matched because it would be awkward for HQ to pay less.

[nealric]

Anyone have any insight on why firms in Birmingham haven't budged, and/or, any indication they will?

It's fucking Alabama? Now that they've got the visual appeal of six-figures-starting, there's no need to raise further until 1) CoL rises substantially and/or 2) there's a talent shortage (i.e., the demand for biglaw services goes up and firms need to expand their classes beyond what the traditional pipeline provides), neither of which seems likely anytime soon.

Put yourself in the shoes of a big-firm partner. Why would you give first-years a raise? Bradley had one because of the cultural awkwardness of Nashville going up even though it's technically a satellite.

Consider that due to COL differences, $110k in Birmingham is equivalent to $273k in Manhattan. If anything, Birmingham BigLaw is already overpaying associates.

(Of course, $110k in Birmingham merely equates to $118k in Houston, so, yeah, TX BigLaw's where it's at, money-wise.)

Biggest problem is that $200k in student loans are $200k in student loans whether you live in NYC, TX, Birmingham, or Timbuktu. Plus, those COL comparisons tend to make assumptions that are unrealistic. For example, they may assume you are going to own a car and rent a 3 bedroom apartment in NYC (equivalent to your cars and 3 bedroom house in Alabama), when realistically people moving to high COL areas tend to scale down their living situation and most people in NYC go carless. Monthly subway pass is a lot cheaper than owning and maintaining a car. I moved from NYC to Texas, and my housing/transportation expenses actually went up because I went from a shoebox apartment and no car, to two cars and owning a 3 bedroom house.

But as others stated, firms in places like Birmingham don't pay $190k because they don't have to- they have all the people they need paying $110k. Texas only went to NYC market because all of the out of town firms came in and started paying NYC market, and the VE/BB/Fulbrights had to raise or else lose all of the top recruits to Kirkland/Latham/etc.

[The Lsat Airbender]

Biggest problem is that $200k in student loans are $200k in student loans whether you live in NYC, TX, Birmingham, or Timbuktu.

Even student loans scale somewhat, though. Sticker at Bama is about $150k whereas UChicago is $350k. People from Alabama who go to T14s mostly have rich daddies.

[QContinuum]

Plus, those COL comparisons tend to make assumptions that are unrealistic. For example, they may assume you are going to own a car and rent a 3 bedroom apartment in NYC (equivalent to your cars and 3 bedroom house in Alabama), when realistically people moving to high COL areas tend to scale down their living situation and most people in NYC go carless. Monthly subway pass is a lot cheaper than owning and maintaining a car. I moved from NYC to Texas, and my housing/transportation expenses actually went up because I went from a shoebox apartment and no car, to two cars and owning a 3 bedroom house.

Sure, the COL comparisons may not be spot on because, as you note, no one is gonna buy a car in Manhattan, whereas you basically can't function without a car for each adult in TX. So I'll give you the two-Metrocards-vs.-two-cars point. But, I do think you overstate your argument. Overall, notwithstanding transportation expenses, COL in Texas really is much, much cheaper. Now, one could - as you did - take advantage of that cheaper COL and really amp it up on the lifestyle front. But a more apples-to-apples comparison would be to look at, say, what $4000 rent gets you in Manhattan and observe that you could maintain the same lifestyle - with the same size apartment - at, say, $2000 in Houston. Saying "oh, I actually didn't save money moving to Texas" because you decided to upgrade from a "shoebox" in NYC to a 3-bedroom house in TX kinda misses the point.

[Anonymous User]

I summered are Bradley within the past couple of years (turned down offer). If they upped the salary in Birmingham, then that must be new this past year. One thing to note is that bonuses are little to nothing. I talked with the partner that ran the department I would’ve been in, and he told me the average bonus was a few grand. And that wasn’t just for first years. The firm is straight up cheap. And while Birmingham is cheap, living in a nice area isn’t that incredibly cheap.

Oh, and it’s a suit and tie every day of the week place, so factor that in. I know from my year, they had difficulty retaining any of the 2L’s that were more competitive. So they are definitely losing out on talent. But then they do get some real smart people who just don’t want to leave Birmingham, but those are gonna be fewer and fewer as Bama law school gets a little more nationally competitive.

[nealric]

Plus, those COL comparisons tend to make assumptions that are unrealistic. For example, they may assume you are going to own a car and rent a 3 bedroom apartment in NYC (equivalent to your cars and 3 bedroom house in Alabama), when realistically people moving to high COL areas tend to scale down their living situation and most people in NYC go carless. Monthly subway pass is a lot cheaper than owning and maintaining a car. I moved from NYC to Texas, and my housing/transportation expenses actually went up because I went from a shoebox apartment and no car, to two cars and owning a 3 bedroom house.

Sure, the COL comparisons may not be spot on because, as you note, no one is gonna buy a car in Manhattan, whereas you basically can't function without a car for each adult in TX. So I'll give you the two-Metrocards-vs.-two-cars point. But, I do think you overstate your argument. Overall, notwithstanding transportation expenses, COL in Texas really is much, much cheaper. Now, one could - as you did - take advantage of that cheaper COL and really amp it up on the lifestyle front. But a more apples-to-apples comparison would be to look at, say, what $4000 rent gets you in Manhattan and observe that you could maintain the same lifestyle - with the same size apartment - at, say, $2000 in Houston. Saying "oh, I actually didn't save money moving to Texas" because you decided to upgrade from a "shoebox" in NYC to a 3-bedroom house in TX kinda misses the point.

My point is housing can be a bit of an apples to oranges competition. I suppose I could have found an apartment of roughly the quality of my NYC apartment in Texas, but it would have been in a very bad neighborhood because they simply don't build apartments like that here. Likewise, they don't make detached single family 3 bedrooms in Manhattan. But even if you get the closest possible equivalent, the most you are going to save is $2-3k a month. That's $24-36k a year- a far cry from what those COL equivalent calculators will tell you.

[SomeoneInBham]

I summered are Bradley within the past couple of years (turned down offer). If they upped the salary in Birmingham, then that must be new this past year. One thing to note is that bonuses are little to nothing. I talked with the partner that ran the department I would’ve been in, and he told me the average bonus was a few grand. And that wasn’t just for first years. The firm is straight up cheap. And while Birmingham is cheap, living in a nice area isn’t that incredibly cheap.

Oh, and it’s a suit and tie every day of the week place, so factor that in. I know from my year, they had difficulty retaining any of the 2L’s that were more competitive. So they are definitely losing out on talent. But then they do get some real smart people who just don’t want to leave Birmingham, but those are gonna be fewer and fewer as Bama law school gets a little more nationally competitive.

I guess I assumed every biglaw firm in the world was a suit and tie every day of the week place. Do you know of firms in Bham that pay biglaw money but don't have that requirement?

[64Fl]

I guess I assumed every biglaw firm in the world was a suit and tie every day of the week place. Do you know of firms in Bham that pay biglaw money but don't have that requirement?

IIRC, the only biglaw firm that is suit and tie is Wachtell. Every firm I've every worked at or interviewed at, including several preffftigious V10s have business casual dress codes. Of course, you throw on a suit if you're meeting with a client. I also know that Baker McKenzie has a casual dress code, so you can grind out your hours in your Metallica graphic T if you really wish.

[dabigchina]

I guess I assumed every biglaw firm in the world was a suit and tie every day of the week place. Do you know of firms in Bham that pay biglaw money but don't have that requirement?

IIRC, the only biglaw firm that is suit and tie is Wachtell. Every firm I've every worked at or interviewed at, including several preffftigious V10s have business casual dress codes. Of course, you throw on a suit if you're meeting with a client. I also know that Baker McKenzie has a casual dress code, so you can grind out your hours in your Metallica graphic T if you really wish.

This is second hand info - but I think Shearman NY and JD NY are both still business formal.

[dabigchina]

Plus, those COL comparisons tend to make assumptions that are unrealistic. For example, they may assume you are going to own a car and rent a 3 bedroom apartment in NYC (equivalent to your cars and 3 bedroom house in Alabama), when realistically people moving to high COL areas tend to scale down their living situation and most people in NYC go carless. Monthly subway pass is a lot cheaper than owning and maintaining a car. I moved from NYC to Texas, and my housing/transportation expenses actually went up because I went from a shoebox apartment and no car, to two cars and owning a 3 bedroom house.

Sure, the COL comparisons may not be spot on because, as you note, no one is gonna buy a car in Manhattan, whereas you basically can't function without a car for each adult in TX. So I'll give you the two-Metrocards-vs.-two-cars point. But, I do think you overstate your argument. Overall, notwithstanding transportation expenses, COL in Texas really is much, much cheaper. Now, one could - as you did - take advantage of that cheaper COL and really amp it up on the lifestyle front. But a more apples-to-apples comparison would be to look at, say, what $4000 rent gets you in Manhattan and observe that you could maintain the same lifestyle - with the same size apartment - at, say, $2000 in Houston. Saying "oh, I actually didn't save money moving to Texas" because you decided to upgrade from a "shoebox" in NYC to a 3-bedroom house in TX kinda misses the point.

My point is housing can be a bit of an apples to oranges competition. I suppose I could have found an apartment of roughly the quality of my NYC apartment in Texas, but it would have been in a very bad neighborhood because they simply don't build apartments like that here. Likewise, they don't make detached single family 3 bedrooms in Manhattan. But even if you get the closest possible equivalent, the most you are going to save is $2-3k a month. That's $24-36k a year- a far cry from what those COL equivalent calculators will tell you.

A couple of things to consider -

1. Most places outside of CA will have much lower state taxes than NYC. That's 10-15k+ per year down the drain right there.
2. On the transportation front - you can cheap out by buying a used Japanese econobox. Sure, it's not sexy, but I'll take that over a crammed subway car any day.
3. On the housing front - I'm seeing 2 bed 1 baths for around 1500 in most parts of houston. I'd be hard pressed to find anything in Manhattan for 1500 unless I wanted to live in somebody's living room.
4. Food is cheaper outside of NYC and CA - to the tune of at least 50%.

Add that up, and you're looking at at least 40k in savings a year. Considering these are post tax numbers (other than the state taxes), it winds up being equivalent to an extra 50-60k per year pre-tax. I would say associates in Texas and Birmingham are doing at least as well as associates in NYC/SFBay and will not have any issues paying off their loans assuming they stay employed.

There's also the psychological benefit of being outside of NYC or the Bay Area. Generally, people evaluate their financial health vis-a-vis their neighbors. If you make 190k in Houston or 110 in Birmingham, you are doing very very well for yourself and would be hard pressed to run into people in your own age bracket who are doing better than you. If you make 190k in San Francisco, you are making less money than a computer science major fresh out of undergrad at FAANG. It may sound shallow, but it's a huge drag to go to law school for 3 years and rack up all this debt, only to bust your ass billing 2200-2400 a year and make less money than a 22 year old working a 9-7.

[QContinuum]

If you make 190k in San Francisco, you are making less money than a computer science major fresh out of undergrad at FAANG. It may sound shallow, but it's a huge drag to go to law school for 3 years and rack up all this debt, only to bust your ass billing 2200-2400 a year and make less money than a 22 year old working a 9-7.

Agree with almost your entire post, but wanted to push back on the quoted bit above because I think it feeds into a potentially dangerous "law's-the-worst" mentality that surfaces from time to time around these parts. Making $200k+ at FAANG as a newly-minted CS grad absolutely entails a similar (if not worse) workload than BigLaw. There's a reason they provide employees on-site nap pods, meals, laundry and shower facilities.

[Wubbles]

I would like to point out that while the difference between first years in Birmingham and NYC is not that great, it's at the midlevel and senior levels that the major pay difference comes into play after the significant jumps in salary and bonuses in NYC (around year 3/4 iirc) and the 5k/year raises and flat bonuses in Birmingham.

Still though, no significant pressure for Birmingham firms to raise salaries in order to attract enough top talent from local schools. I think most of their threat to hiring would come from Atlanta or Nashville (where one can foreseeably see people from Alabama going as a balance between pay and remaining close to home, can't overstate how few people from Alabama are interested in living in NYC), which don't have astronomical amounts of high paying positions themselves and also like to have locals.

[dabigchina]

If you make 190k in San Francisco, you are making less money than a computer science major fresh out of undergrad at FAANG. It may sound shallow, but it's a huge drag to go to law school for 3 years and rack up all this debt, only to bust your ass billing 2200-2400 a year and make less money than a 22 year old working a 9-7.

Agree with almost your entire post, but wanted to push back on the quoted bit above because I think it feeds into a potentially dangerous "law's-the-worst" mentality that surfaces from time to time around these parts. Making $200k+ at FAANG as a newly-minted CS grad absolutely entails a similar (if not worse) workload than BigLaw. There's a reason they provide employees on-site nap pods, meals, laundry and shower facilities.

Most of the junior engineers making this much at FAANG would not want to switch lives with any biglaw junior. (Outside of Amazon, they have a terrible culture. I've heard that Netflix's "tough culture" is overblown.)

And you know what - even if they did work as much as us (they don't) at least they get the perks to make it more palatable - IE I would love to have someone do my laundry for free and have a nap pod instead of piling up my laundry on my bed and curling up under my desk.

I was just trying to articulate that there are non-financial factors determining how satisfied someone is with their compensation. Regardless, this is already pretty off topic, so I'll stop cluttering up OP's thread.

[Anonymous User]

I summered are Bradley within the past couple of years (turned down offer). If they upped the salary in Birmingham, then that must be new this past year. One thing to note is that bonuses are little to nothing. I talked with the partner that ran the department I would’ve been in, and he told me the average bonus was a few grand. And that wasn’t just for first years. The firm is straight up cheap. And while Birmingham is cheap, living in a nice area isn’t that incredibly cheap.

Oh, and it’s a suit and tie every day of the week place, so factor that in. I know from my year, they had difficulty retaining any of the 2L’s that were more competitive. So they are definitely losing out on talent. But then they do get some real smart people who just don’t want to leave Birmingham, but those are gonna be fewer and fewer as Bama law school gets a little more nationally competitive.

I guess I assumed every biglaw firm in the world was a suit and tie every day of the week place. Do you know of firms in Bham that pay biglaw money but don't have that requirement?

Every firm in Birmingham (that I know of) is suit and tie. But I ended up in Atlanta, which is far more casual. I’m at a boutique where jeans and sneakers are ok, but even the other firms I’ve seen are more business casual. Very rare that I see anyone in a suit and tie.

[Anonymous User]

I guess I assumed every biglaw firm in the world was a suit and tie every day of the week place. Do you know of firms in Bham that pay biglaw money but don't have that requirement?

IIRC, the only biglaw firm that is suit and tie is Wachtell. Every firm I've every worked at or interviewed at, including several preffftigious V10s have business casual dress codes. Of course, you throw on a suit if you're meeting with a client. I also know that Baker McKenzie has a casual dress code, so you can grind out your hours in your Metallica graphic T if you really wish.

This is second hand info - but I think Shearman NY and JD NY are both still business formal.

First hand info, Shearman NY is not business formal anymore. That being said, an alarming number of people wore suits on a daily basis for it being a business casual environment. The explicit line is 100% business casual, but there is some implicit pressure when half of your co-workers and a supermajority of partners wear suits.

[trebekismyhero]

I am just shocked that a thread on salaries in Birmingham, Alabama has gotten this many responses.

Also, junior engineers in SV have way better lifestyles than almost any big law junior associate. Even Amazon, which has worse hours than most tech companies is not as bad as most big law firms in terms of face time and being on call (I have multiple friends that work for Amazon as lawyers and engineers and we have compared schedules). But all this is off topic, if OP wants the money, go to Texas, if being close to home is more important, just pretend and get Cravath scale out of your head.