Help Evaluate My Job Offer! Forum

[JustAWeirdoGuy]

Hi!

I recently got a first-year associate offer from a Denver-based law firm for $75k base pay, plus pretty good benefits. The firm has around 25 attorneys and mostly does corporate/transactional work. Billable expectation is fairly low (~1550/year) and the work environment seems great.

Anyone know if this is this a normal/good offer for a firm like this in Colorado? I really like this firm, but the pay seems kinda low, especially considering I currently have a no-JD-required job paying $70k, benefits almost as good, and work 40-hour weeks most of the time...

For background: I’m a recent graduate of a midwestern T-30 law school, slightly above median GPA. No law firm experience, but three years of full-time work experience in the industry this firm services. Also have $180k of student loans, so there’s that.

[trebekismyhero]

Try to negotiate for a slightly higher salary, but if this is your only attorney job offer I would take it. Don't take the non-JD offer if you want to be an actual lawyer. The debt is a pain, but got to move forward and get experience.

[dabigchina]

I think he currently works at the 70k non-jd job.

I would definitely push for more money here (at least 90-100k). If they don't budge, don't take it. I wouldn't give up a 70k 9-5 to go work at a law firm for 5k more per year. 1500 billable per year is low, but who knows how hard they will actually work you.

[LBJ's Hair]

I think he currently works at the 70k non-jd job.

I would definitely push for more money here (at least 90-100k). If they don't budge, don't take it. I wouldn't give up a 70k 9-5 to go work at a law firm for 5k more per year. 1500 billable per year is low, but who knows how hard they will actually work you.

This is terrible advice

Every month OP spends in a non-JD required job (particularly for someone fresh out of law school) makes it incrementally harder for him/her to move to a firm. More money, at a JD-required, for someone who *wants to practice law*, is a win.

You try to negotiate higher pay, but if they don't budge, take it, do a good job, keep applying. (And Denver is like, a tertiary market anyway---big difference between $70K there and $70K in NYC.)

[QContinuum]

I think he currently works at the 70k non-jd job.

I would definitely push for more money here (at least 90-100k). If they don't budge, don't take it. I wouldn't give up a 70k 9-5 to go work at a law firm for 5k more per year. 1500 billable per year is low, but who knows how hard they will actually work you.

This is terrible advice

Every month OP spends in a non-JD required job (particularly for someone fresh out of law school) makes it incrementally harder for him/her to move to a firm. More money, at a JD-required, for someone who *wants to practice law*, is a win.

You try to negotiate higher pay, but if they don't budge, take it, do a good job, keep applying. (And Denver is like, a tertiary market anyway---big difference between $70K there and $70K in NYC.)

LBJ's right, IMO. OP cannot afford to keep doing non-J.D.-required work. The longer s/he does that, the harder it will be to ever break into a legal career. Absolutely OP can/should try to negotiate, but no matter what I'd recommend taking the job. It's a no-brainer. Once OP gets that critical first legal job, they can build toward getting a raise and/or lateraling to a better-paying firm down the road.

FWIW, not sure how accurate this calculator is, but it claims that $70k in Denver is equivalent to $145k in Manhattan. https://www.bankrate.com/calculators/sa ... lator.aspx

[Anonymous User]

Posting anon bc I have Denver connections, but I don’t think that’s terribly out of line for a Denver firm that size. It’s a small market with few national biglaw firms and with the exception of some branches of those national firms, even “big” Denver firms pay under NYC market (when I was last there I think biglaw market was around $120k but it’s been a few years). It’s gotten a lot more expensive in the last 5 years or so (housing is bad), but it’s still not NYC/SF/LA/DC.

I’m not claiming you couldn’t ever make more in Denver, and I absolutely agree it’s worth negotiating, but I don’t think that’s terribly low. And I do tend to agree that if you want to stay in law it’s better to take this and get experience and move up (I know a number of people who went from midlaw to the local equivalent of biglaw in Denver; again, it’s a small market, where experience and connections go a long way).

[shock259]

LBJ's right, IMO. OP cannot afford to keep doing non-J.D.-required work. The longer s/he does that, the harder it will be to ever break into a legal career. Absolutely OP can/should try to negotiate, but no matter what I'd recommend taking the job. It's a no-brainer. Once OP gets that critical first legal job, they can build toward getting a raise and/or lateraling to a better-paying firm down the road.

FWIW, not sure how accurate this calculator is, but it claims that $70k in Denver is equivalent to $145k in Manhattan. https://www.bankrate.com/calculators/sa ... lator.aspx

I always find these calculators to be a little suspect. Denver is obviously nowhere near as expensive as Manhattan, but it isn't exactly cheap any more. And there are some things you'll need in Denver that you wouldn't need in Manhattan, the most obvious being a car and all related expenses.

Going back to OP's post, for full disclosure I don't have a lot of experience with smaller firms in Denver. That said, it does seem pretty low even for this market, particularly for a corporate/transactional shop. Do you have any sense of what associates do when they leave the firm? Work at larger firms or go in house?

Have you had any other bites from other firms? Are you only looking in Denver? Did you graduate back in May?

I would try to raise the salary as much as I could, but lean towards accepting it. As others have said, if you want to be a lawyer you'll need to get into a JD job and this one sounds like it at least has the potential of teaching you some skills. But it also sounds like you may need to keep your eyes on the exits and view it as a bridge job if you aren't able to make the numbers work (salary and debt).

[sparty99]

Hi!

I recently got a first-year associate offer from a Denver-based law firm for $75k base pay, plus pretty good benefits. The firm has around 25 attorneys and mostly does corporate/transactional work. Billable expectation is fairly low (~1550/year) and the work environment seems great.

Anyone know if this is this a normal/good offer for a firm like this in Colorado? I really like this firm, but the pay seems kinda low, especially considering I currently have a no-JD-required job paying $70k, benefits almost as good, and work 40-hour weeks most of the time...

For background: I’m a recent graduate of a midwestern T-30 law school, slightly above median GPA. No law firm experience, but three years of full-time work experience in the industry this firm services. Also have $180k of student loans, so there’s that.

After you ask for a 90k salary, you obviously you accept the job (assuming you want to practice law).. Nevertheless, think long term here. If you want to be a lawyer do one to years at the small firm then lateral to Big Law. You will ultimately need Big Law with your $180k debt load. You can't even afford to be picky. I went from $75k at an insurance defense firm and now make Big Law salary after I paid my dues at the ID firm and got experience..

[dabigchina]

I think he currently works at the 70k non-jd job.

I would definitely push for more money here (at least 90-100k). If they don't budge, don't take it. I wouldn't give up a 70k 9-5 to go work at a law firm for 5k more per year. 1500 billable per year is low, but who knows how hard they will actually work you.

This is terrible advice

Every month OP spends in a non-JD required job (particularly for someone fresh out of law school) makes it incrementally harder for him/her to move to a firm. More money, at a JD-required, for someone who *wants to practice law*, is a win.

You try to negotiate higher pay, but if they don't budge, take it, do a good job, keep applying. (And Denver is like, a tertiary market anyway---big difference between $70K there and $70K in NYC.)

LBJ's right, IMO. OP cannot afford to keep doing non-J.D.-required work. The longer s/he does that, the harder it will be to ever break into a legal career. Absolutely OP can/should try to negotiate, but no matter what I'd recommend taking the job. It's a no-brainer. Once OP gets that critical first legal job, they can build toward getting a raise and/or lateraling to a better-paying firm down the road.

FWIW, not sure how accurate this calculator is, but it claims that $70k in Denver is equivalent to $145k in Manhattan. https://www.bankrate.com/calculators/sa ... lator.aspx

Piggybacking off of that calculation, would you recommend someone making 145k in NYC working 9-5 go work in biglaw (apparently the end all, be all of legal positions)?

OP is negotiating from a position of relative strength. I don't think he/she needs to be that desperate.

[2013]

I think he currently works at the 70k non-jd job.

I would definitely push for more money here (at least 90-100k). If they don't budge, don't take it. I wouldn't give up a 70k 9-5 to go work at a law firm for 5k more per year. 1500 billable per year is low, but who knows how hard they will actually work you.

This is terrible advice

Every month OP spends in a non-JD required job (particularly for someone fresh out of law school) makes it incrementally harder for him/her to move to a firm. More money, at a JD-required, for someone who *wants to practice law*, is a win.

You try to negotiate higher pay, but if they don't budge, take it, do a good job, keep applying. (And Denver is like, a tertiary market anyway---big difference between $70K there and $70K in NYC.)

LBJ's right, IMO. OP cannot afford to keep doing non-J.D.-required work. The longer s/he does that, the harder it will be to ever break into a legal career. Absolutely OP can/should try to negotiate, but no matter what I'd recommend taking the job. It's a no-brainer. Once OP gets that critical first legal job, they can build toward getting a raise and/or lateraling to a better-paying firm down the road.

FWIW, not sure how accurate this calculator is, but it claims that $70k in Denver is equivalent to $145k in Manhattan. https://www.bankrate.com/calculators/sa ... lator.aspx

Piggybacking off of that calculation, would you recommend someone making 145k in NYC working 9-5 go work in biglaw (apparently the end all, be all of legal positions)?

OP is negotiating from a position of relative strength. I don't think he/she needs to be that desperate.

How is OP negotiating from a position of relative strength? He/she has no other offer and is not in a JD-required job. As has been mentioned numerous times above, the longer OP is in a non-JD-required job, the less valuable he/she becomes.

[QContinuum]

Piggybacking off of that calculation, would you recommend someone making 145k in NYC working 9-5 go work in biglaw (apparently the end all, be all of legal positions)?

OP is negotiating from a position of relative strength. I don't think he/she needs to be that desperate.

If the $145k 9-5 job's a nonlegal job, but the person has a J.D. and wants to be a lawyer, absolutely I would tell them to jump at the BigLaw offer.

Economically, of course it wouldn't make any sense for the $145k 9-5 fellow to go to law school. But economics aren't the be-all end-all. Further, here the "sunk cost" - law school, bar prep - has already been paid. It would be the height of foolishness for OP to turn down a decent legal position - and a pay raise, modest though it may be! - to stay in a nonlegal position.

[nixy]

It’s not that biglaw is the be-all and end-all; it’s that this OP is in a non-JD required job and presumably they want to practice law or they wouldn’t have applied for the current gig. People are only bringing up biglaw because of debt/salary. The OP could also get experience and move to some kind of public sector job and PSLF their salary. It’s kind of hard to give more specific advice without knowing their actual background.

Personally I agree there’s a risk that the $5k bump is going to come with a lot more/unpredictable hours, and I can see an argument that the risk isn’t worth it, but that’s assuming everything else about the jobs is equal, which isn’t the case here.

If someone in NYC was making $145k but it wasn’t a legal practice job and they wanted actually to practice, yes, I’d tell them to go to biglaw, if that was their other option. If they don’t care about practicing and like their current field - which may be the case for the OP, who knows - then staying is completely defensible. But the OP isn’t saying “I really like my current job and am happy to stay in this non-practice field and the only difference is the 5k.”

It’s also really hard to say that the OP is negotiating from a position of relative strength without more info. Yes, in that he has a job; no, in that it’s not legal practice.

[LBJ's Hair]

It’s not that biglaw is the be-all and end-all; it’s that this OP is in a non-JD required job and presumably they want to practice law or they wouldn’t have applied for the current gig. People are only bringing up biglaw because of debt/salary. The OP could also get experience and move to some kind of public sector job and PSLF their salary. It’s kind of hard to give more specific advice without knowing their actual background.

Personally I agree there’s a risk that the $5k bump is going to come with a lot more/unpredictable hours, and I can see an argument that the risk isn’t worth it, but that’s assuming everything else about the jobs is equal, which isn’t the case here.

If someone in NYC was making $145k but it wasn’t a legal practice job and they wanted actually to practice, yes, I’d tell them to go to biglaw, if that was their other option. If they don’t care about practicing and like their current field - which may be the case for the OP, who knows - then staying is completely defensible. But the OP isn’t saying “I really like my current job and am happy to stay in this non-practice field and the only difference is the 5k.”

It’s also really hard to say that the OP is negotiating from a position of relative strength without more info. Yes, in that he has a job; no, in that it’s not legal practice.

if OP doesn't care about actually practicing law then yeah, that changes my analysis

[yodamiked]

From a few years of personal experience, there are a lot of sacrifices that come with working at a law firm. If OP has a passion for being a lawyer, then yes he should be seriously considering each legal job offer that comes his way. However, if he went to law school with the intent of simply having a better paying career (which I think a lot of folks do), then I wouldn't ever recommend a law firm job over a non-law 9-5 that pays practically the same.

[Anonymous User]

Denver attorney here. To me, that salary sounds low but not out of the ordinary for a firm that size here in town.

OP - is your non-JD job in Compliance or something JD-adjacent? If so, I don't think you need to jump at this job right away. I'm currently in-house and we've had a number of JDs on our compliance team leave for legal roles over the past 18 months or so. That move actually seems relatively common in the market here, much more so than in other cities I've worked, so if you're in a compliance-type role, I don't think you need to jump here if you don't get more money. I wouldn't make this move for less than $90,000 in your shoes, unless there are some extenuating circumstances (hate current job, terrible law school grades that are hurting your job search, etc.).